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Thread: Can patrick chan close the gap on yuzuru hanyu?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Hanyu isn't being propped up, he's receiving accurate scores in comparison to how overscored Chan is. He deserved to beat Chan on PCS at the GPF Short Program and he deserved to be on equal footing with Chan in the Long Program. Results like this are exactly what should have happened so many times in the past and now it is finally reality, a reality that puts the sport in the direction it should be.
    You're entitled to your opinion (as biased as it may be) but to suggest Hanyu received accurate PCS (92.5 points with a fall) at the GPF is pretty ridiculous. Like you honestly believe Hanyu earned that 193 score with a fall, and it wasn't blatant home ice inflation?

    You whine about Patrick falling and winning, whereas Hanyu falls at the GPF and wins the LP over a clean Chan (and in spite of said fall gets immensely higher PCS than his previous PB), and all of a sudden the sport is going in the right direction.

    If Chan didn't skate his TEB FS, Hanyu would have the World Record FS for his GPF free skate. Think about if that were the case... a world record FS with a fall... truly indicative of the sport going in the right direction.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Just like at the GPF where even with his home cooked PCS scores Hanyu still lost to Chan on every PCS category?

    Speaking of smoke screens, from TEB to the GPF, somehow Hanyu's SS shot up from 8.39 to 9.11, TR from 7.82 to 9.00, PE from 8.11 to 9.29, CH from 8.29 to 9.43, and IN from 8.36 to 9.36. Nothing like home ice to add a full point to your PCS categories.

    His PE and IN were stronger than TEB, but that doesn't explain how Hanyu had essentially the same choreo/transitions between the 2 events, and yet his CH and TR scores went up by over a point.
    Well lets not forget it happened to PChan too, back in 2008-2009 season. Or peoples already forgot about it??? He received 81.39 on TEB to 88.90 at 4CC held in Vancouver, Canada with home country brownie points. Then world in LA, he score drop down bac to 82.55 same clean program. I hate to burst bubble, but all of his CH,TR didn't change between the TEB to up to world championship.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderlen3000 View Post
    Well lets not forget it happened to PChan too, back in 2008-2009 season. Or peoples already forgot about it??? He received 81.39 on TEB to 88.90 at 4CC held in Vancouver, Canada with home country brownie points. Then world in LA, he score drop down bac to 82.55 same clean program. I hate to burst bubble, but all of his CH,TR didn't change between the TEB to up to world championship.
    Chan's PCS for his clean SP at 2008 TEB was 37.15 and his PCS for his clean 2009 4CC SP was 38.60 - a difference of 1.45 points. It was 6 points higher TES (from better quality jumps, no edge call on his flip, level 4 footwork, and stronger spins than TEB), that chiefly contributed to the jump in score from 81.39 to 88.90. Not due to home ice brownie points. His Worlds FS was clean but less quality elements meant about 5 points lost in PCS, hence the score dropping back down. His PCS was 36.95, which was only 1.6 points shy of his PCS at 4CC.

    In comparison, Hanyu's PCS for his perfect TEB SP this year was 42.65 and this jumped to 45.32 at the GPF (a difference of 2.67 points).

  4. #34
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    to suggest Hanyu received accurate PCS (92.5 points with a fall) at the GPF is pretty ridiculous. Like you honestly believe Hanyu earned that 193 score with a fall, and it wasn't blatant home ice inflation?
    Why are you so incapable of reading? I said his scores were accurate in comparison to the overscoring Chan receives. They were both overscored, but in the end the differential was correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    If Chan didn't skate his TEB FS, Hanyu would have the World Record FS for his GPF free skate. Think about if that were the case... a world record FS with a fall... truly indicative of the sport going in the right direction.
    If someone attempted 5 Quads in their LP and fell on one of them, that would still be a World record. Chan set a new World record at 2011 Worlds with a bad step-out.

    Hanyu's program is considerably more difficult than Chan's. He made one mistake at the start and skated the remainder of the program perfectly. Even with a fall on Quad Sal, Hanyu's technical offering was equal to what Chan can do if he skated absolutely perfect. But Chan didn't skate perfect; he doubled a jump. His overall performance was slightly held back as well. He still deserved to beat Hanyu on PCS, but only by a few points. Which is shockingly how the judges scored him. Normally in this scenario Chan's PCS would be drastically higher.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    He still deserved to beat Hanyu on PCS, but only by a few points. Which is shockingly how the judges scored him.
    So when I call Chan a better artistic skater than Hanyu you say that I'm telling lies. And then you (heavens be praised) actually admit Chan deserved to beat Hanyu on PCS.

    You say Chan doesn't deserve 90 points in PCS at his best but still deserved higher PCS than Hanyu. So you would agree that at the GPF Chan's PCS should have been more like 87-88, so Hanyu's PCS should have been about 85-86, right?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Hanyu's program is considerably more difficult than Chan's. He made one mistake at the start and skated the remainder of the program perfectly. Even with a fall on Quad Sal, Hanyu's technical offering was equal to what Chan can do if he skated absolutely perfect.
    I agree that Hanyu's layout is more difficult than Chan's, but his actual program is less intricate and demanding than Chan's. About the 4S fall program being better than a perfect Chan, a program with 1 successful quad and 2 successful 3As is equivalent to a clean performance from Chan with 2 quads and 1 triple axel in terms of points. But if we are comparing executed jumps, 2 quads is better than 1.

  7. #37
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Please stop the double posting. All you have to do is copy + paste the "quote=blahblahblah" coding and add "[/quote]" at the end of each section you want to break apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    So when I call Chan a better artistic skater than Hanyu you say that I'm telling lies. And then you actually admit that Chan deserved to beat Hanyu on PCS. Which one is it?
    Artistry does not equal all of the PCS. Chan mainly deserves a buffer on skating skills. That said, I slightly prefer Chan's LP to Hanyu's this season. Neither having very interesting interpretation, but Chan's choreography is a little better. Hanyu deserved the higher performance component for these performances, though. Chan's second footwork sequence was underwhelming and then he fizzled out on the final spin afterward. It brought the performance down a notch and cost him technically as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I agree that Hanyu's layout is more difficult than Chan's, but his actual program is less intricate and demanding than Chan's.
    I don't agree with that. Hanyu is doing harder entrances into his Quads than Chan, a harder entrance into his 3Lutz-half loop-3Sal, and one of the hardest entrances possible into his second 3Axel. Chan has a greater amount of inbetweens in total, but not the same amount of difficulty.

  8. #38
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    Hanyu also messed up his final spin. You're admitting that Chan's choreo is better yet you said before Chan only has 9's worthy SS and TR. So you're saying Hanyu's choreo is undeserving of 9's, by extension.

    And I'll post however I want, TYVM. I often make posts via my smartphone so if I post a response and then see something else to comment on in a post, it's much more feasible to create a separate response rather than edit/copy/paste/etc.

  9. #39
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Hanyu also messed up his final spin.
    Not as badly as Chan, who stumbled out of his.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    You're admitting that Chan's choreo is better yet you said before Chan only has 9's worthy SS and TR. So you're saying Hanyu's choreo is undeserving of 9's, by extension.
    I didn't say Chan only has 9 worthy SS (at his best)? For transitions yes.

    And of course Hanyu's choreography is undeserving of a 9. I really don't get it; you just ignore everything. I specifically said they were both overscored. It's just that the differential was correct, which is what's important when comparing competitors. In general, though, this overscoring is terrible for the sport because these weak programs pull hugely undeserved numbers. It makes people ignore the actual artistic aspects of skating, which in turn diminishes the appeal of the entire sport.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Hanyu is doing harder entrances into his Quads than Chan, a harder entrance into his 3Lutz-half loop-3Sal, and one of the hardest entrances possible into his second 3Axel.
    You must not tell lies. For the 1st quad, like Chan, Hanyu does basic skating into his opening 4S. As for their 2nd quad, Hanyu's RBO-LFI open choctaw step preceding the 4T is tricky yet far easier to execute/maintain speed than the LFO-LBO rocker turn preceding Chan's 2nd quad.

    As far as their 3Z-3S entrances, Chan's entrance with a flying RBI-RFI counter is much harder than the mini waltz jump pirouette Hanyu does. A flying counter requires more blade control and is a greater risk to a loss of speed.

    Hanyu's entry into the second 3A is indeed breathtakingly difficult but it's absolutely false to say he has harder quad/sequence entries.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Actually, like Chan, Hanyu does basic stroking into his opening 4S.
    Hanyu does turning 3 into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    As for their 2nd quad, Hanyu's RBO-LFI open choctaw step preceding the 4T is tricky yet it's far easier to execute/maintain speed than the LFO-LBO rocker turn preceding Chan's 2nd quad.
    Chan does not do that turn directly into the jump, Hanyu does. Giving yourself 5 seconds after a single rocker turn is hardly more difficult than a choctaw directly into a jump.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    As far as their 3Z-3S entrances, Chan's entrance with a flying RBI-RFI counter is much harder than the mini waltz jump pirouette Hanyu does. A flying counter requires much greater edge control and is a greater risk to a loss of speed.
    Chan does not do that INTO the jump. He does it as an inbetween and then does crossovers into the jump. You're also leaving out the steps Hanyu does.

  12. #42
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    Actually,to put things in perspective, Chan vs Hanyu should be placed in the context of Mao vs Lipnitskaia. Both are veteran champions against talented upstart, one (Chan) skated a poorer SP vis rival, the other (Mao) a poorer LP, yet Chan lost while Mao won. It doesn't take a stretch of imagination to see that there's slight home advantage at work here, both TES & PCS, if the scores are compared. Question is, without home advantage, which scenario is more likely to prevail at Sochi?

    Chan (likewise Mao) has two things going for him at Sochi - (1)veteran champion, reputation, prior olympics experience, history, etc. (2) skating style, program, choreography, etc. closer to the more matured traditional approach favored by Russians to beat an advantage for PCS.

    What are the odds that a clean Lipnitskaia (girl) would win against a somewhat clean Mao (woman)? At this juncture, it is not even debated, it's Yuna vs Mao, even with home advantage for Lipnitskaia.

    However, should either Mao or Yuna or Patrick skate really badly beyond any slight cushion they may have, then the gates are flung open for the younger new comers.

    If the Russians throw in a good-shape Plushenko to compete against Chan, then it gets even more interesting.

  13. #43
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    Let's get more specific:

    Chan's first 4T: 3turn then a crossover then 3turn into his quad. Not a complex entry.
    Hanyu's 4S: he does a wide Mohawk, RBO-RFi 3-turn, and a Mohawk into his quad. Not a complex entry - in fact this is a very typical salchow setup. Nice try, but there's nothing fancy about "Hanyu does a turning 3 into it".

    Chan's second 4T: LFO-LBO rocker, does a crossover and then a 3turn into his quad.
    Hanyu's 4T: he does not do a direct Choctaw into the quad, as you say. He does backwards crossovers, the RBO-LFI Choctaw, and then one step onto his right foot and then another step onto his left foot to do a 3-turn into the 4T. Its done quickly however the two steps mean its not really a "direct" choctaw entry. A "direct" Choctaw would be if Hanyu did a LBO-RFI Choctaw and then did his 3-turn into the quad.
    Also, Chan certainly doesn't take 5 seconds after the rocker turn to execute his quad. It's not a "direct" rocker like say a RFI-RBI rocker then 3-turn into the quad would be, but its a legit transition preceding the jump -- as mentioned there is greater risk in a complex turn like a rocker leading into a quad than complex step like a Choctaw (as the speed is more easily lost while turning whereas stepping maintains and can even generate speed).

    Chan's 3Z-3S sequence: does a flying RBI-RFI counter, steps onto a LFI edge, does a crossover, and then does the same entry that Hanyu does (stepping to an LFO crossing the right foot over, LFI-RBO Choctaw, then LBO up into the lutz).
    Hanyu's 3Z-3S sequence: he does a pirouette (essentially a mini waltz jump and 3 turn out of it), does a simple change of edge to do a right crossover, and then steps onto his left foot and enters lutz with Choctaw entry (the same as Chan's).
    If you're going to count Hanyu's pirouette as a transition move leading into the sequence then you have to count Chan's flying rocker... they essentially do each respective maneuver, a basic step or 3-turn, and then the Choctaw entry. Neither maneuver is a direct entry but both are transitional as they lead into the sequence. If Hanyu exited that pirouette into a LFO-LBO rocker instead of a 3-turn it would add to the difficulty of the transition, but Chan's flying counter is a harder entry than what Hanyu has right now because of the control needed and the risk of the maneuver killing his speed into the jump.

    Sorry, but when it comes to quad and sequence entries, both have no complex transition into their first quad, and Chan's rocker and flying counter lead-ins are undoubtedly harder/riskier than Hanyu's choctaw and mini-twirl.

  14. #44
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    Count the time it takes them to go from the moves into the jump. Hanyu's are much more immediate and that is a fact. He does no crossover into the lutz combo either, once he starts the series on steps. Where are you getting that from? And yes doing a turning 3 is more difficult than doing nothing at all ("nothing at all" being a simple, standard 3 turn, which is a half turn, as compared to a turning 3 which is a full turn).

  15. #45
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    The reason why Chan takes more time to do his transitions is because it goes with the music, he wants to exhibit his deep edges, and show off his excellent ice coverage on the rocker and flying counter. Note how Hanyu takes more non-complex steps, and doesn't exhibit as deep edges as Chan, going into his 4T and lutz sequence. Hanyu's are quicker lead ins but on his quads and sequence they lack complex turns (much harder to do turns than steps), so for those particular elements Chan has a more difficult lead-in even though Hanyu's tempo into the jump is quicker.

    What "full turn" are you referring to? Hanyu does a wide Mohawk (RFI-LBI), switches to his right foot to do an outside 3-turn (RBO-RFI.. Only half a rotation), and then does another Mohawk (RFI-LBI) and then goes up into the salchow off the LBI. I have no idea where you're getting this full turn thing from but his entry is a standard RBO-RFI-LBI salchow entry.

    A turning 3 (I think you mean a double 3) would be what he does prior to the 3turn he takes into his 3F (LFO-LBI-LFO double 3 and then a LFO-LBI 3-turn up into the 3F).

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