Can patrick chan close the gap on yuzuru hanyu? | Page 6 | Golden Skate

Can patrick chan close the gap on yuzuru hanyu?

David21

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
With all the falls and stumbles, Machida's TES dropped from Skate America 50 and 44.5 at Rostelecom to 26.5 at GPF, yet his PCS remained the same at 40+ for both, and similar to his 41+ at Skate America where he won Gold, even though he skated without falls at both SA & Rostelecom.

There's definitely unrealistic PCS here.


Did you read my post? Machida did not have "falls and stumbles" in the SP. He had one fall and that's it and there is no rule which states that your PCS have to drop when you have a fall at the beginning of the program and the judges think that is not distracting from the overall program. And you cannot compare PCS from different competitions like you are doing anyway.


Otoh, YH's LP PCS went from 76+ at SC, 81+ at TEB to 92+ GPF within a few weeks...

I like Machida and YH and I have no problems with them receiving home advantage. It is however double standards to create an uproar about Canada but state with absolute certainty that Japan doesn't do it, when it is quite blatant that almost all the Feds do.


I DO have a problem with skaters getting home advantage, but maybe the judges thought that Hanyu skated better at the GPF than at previous competitions. Aren't the judges supposed to mark what actually happens on the ice?
 

qwertyskates

Medalist
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Did you read my post? Machida did not have "falls and stumbles" in the SP. He had one fall and that's it and there is no rule which states that your PCS have to drop when you have a fall at the beginning of the program and the judges think that is not distracting from the overall program. And you cannot compare PCS from different competitions like you are doing anyway.





I DO have a problem with skaters getting home advantage, but maybe the judges thought that Hanyu skated better at the GPF than at previous competitions. Aren't the judges supposed to mark what actually happens on the ice?


Did you even watch his SP? He botched two jumps and did poorly on the spins. If you insist that poorly performing the elements to score only half of TES in one season and dropping one's place from 1st to last should not affect one's PCS, then please apply the same standard to PC's PCS scores will you?

When PC skated poorly but received high PCS, everyone cries foul. When it happens to Machida, then it's "PCS should not be affected by poor TES".

I rest my case.
 

qwertyskates

Medalist
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
100% agreed. GOE should vary. Instead of doing some comparisons to TEB - look at his elements from the GPF and say which ones supposedly got too much points... (yes, that means you, qwertyskates). If the only thing you say is "his GOE were a lot higher than at TEB", that doesn't mean much. Despite the fact that the execution might have been diffferent, I might aswell say he was undermarked in GOE in TEB (which I don't even want to do now - it's just meant to show you that this comparison doesn't help you much).

At GPF, there were poorly performed elements in YH's LP, eg his moving and faltering spin, yet PC received 0 and - tve for his step out of final spin while YH received 0 and +tve.

Huge PCS boost (40+, 42+ to 45+for SP, 76+, 81+ to 92+ for LP) + all these little points in GOEs add up to deliver gold, that's home advantage.

And then there's Machida's unchanged SP PCS when he dropped from 1st at SA to last at GPF...

Either PCS is related to TES performance or it isn't, take your pick, you can't have it both ways when it comes to GPF.

The difference between you and other PC's critics and me is that I acknowledge what's at work here, but you apply one set of standards to PC and another to YH, Machida, etc.
 

David21

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
Did you even watch his SP? He botched two jumps and did poorly on the spins. If you insist that poorly performing the elements to score only half of TES in one season and dropping one's place from 1st to last should not affect one's PCS, then please apply the same standard to PC's PCS scores will you?


I apply the same standard to everyone.
And I did not see that Machida "did poorly on the spins" or "botched two jumps".


When PC skated poorly but received high PCS, everyone cries foul. When it happens to Machida, then it's "PCS should not be affected by poor TES".


Who is "everyone"? When PC's mistakes don't affect the program, then his PCS should not be affected either. But the problem with him is that his PCS are too high in general, even if he skates clean. I have already mentioned his ridiculous 9.71 for IN at the GPF.
 

qwertyskates

Medalist
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
I apply the same standard to everyone.
And I did not see that Machida "did poorly on the spins" or "botched two jumps".





Who is "everyone"? When PC's mistakes don't affect the program, then his PCS should not be affected either. But the problem with him is that his PCS are too high in general, even if he skates clean. I have already mentioned his ridiculous 9.71 for IN at the GPF.

If you are unable to see with your own eyes then at least look at the score sheet, will you?:rolleye:

1st place PCS and last place performance PCS remaining the same is ok with you? If you insist PCS should remain constant despite good or poor performance then why do you accept huge boost for YH's PCS and pick on PC's high PCS when he made mistakes?

I can also insist based on your inconsistently applied standards & criteria that PC deserves his PCS every time and YH's PCS is ridiculous,ie. logic and math be damned.

As for LP PCS, PC's remained within a range of 5 this season, Machida's a range of 2, YH's a range of 16! SP PC's range is 2, YH's range is 5 !

PC's PCS range in total is 7 advantage combined, YH's PCS range at GPF is 21 advantage (3 times PC) within a few weeks, enough to deliver gold. So whose PCS is more consistent and realistic given that you insist Machida's PCS should not change whether he botched or delivered 1st for his programs?

You turn a blind eye (literally cannot see a difference between 1st and last place performance) when it's others' boosted PCS but come down hard on PC's PCS, that's the truth.

Like I said, I'm consistent, I accept blatant home advantage/judges' favoritism for ALL skaters when they occur, but you guys only come down hard on PC. I'm not even a PC uber, I am a skating uber, a fine skate is a fine skate, and I think YH is not there, certainly not his GPF skate, not even close to the skating history's greats, or PC's TEB performance.

Sochi is still PC's (and Mao's) to lose. :biggrin:
 

David21

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
If you are unable to see with your own eyes then at least look at the score sheet, will you?:rolleye:

1st place PCS and last place performance PCS remaining the same is ok with you? If you insist PCS should remain constant despite good or poor performance then why do you accept huge boost for YH's PCS and pick on PC's high PCS when he made mistakes?

I can also insist based on your inconsistently applied standards & criteria that PC deserves his PCS every time and YH's PCS is ridiculous,ie. logic and math be damned.

As for LP PCS, PC's remained within a range of 5 this season, Machida's a range of 2, YH's a range of 16! SP PC's range is 2, YH's range is 5 !

PC's PCS range in total is 7 advantage combined, YH's PCS range at GPF is 21 advantage (3 times PC) within a few weeks, enough to deliver gold. So whose PCS is more consistent and realistic given that you insist Machida's PCS should not change whether he botched or delivered 1st for his programs?


My point is not to say that PCS should always be constant. I'm simply saying that your "math methods" are not enough to determine if the PCS given out by the judges are wrong or right.

You said that Machida's PCS should be lower than usual at the GPF because his TES were half of what he got at the other GP's. Well:

- his PCS WERE lower than at the other Grand Prix's (only slightly but still)
- low TES should not necessarily correlate with low PCS. It always depends on the actual performace. If a skater jumps only triple lutzes his TES will be very low because he made about 6 invalid elements, but he still could have a great perormace which would deserve high PCS. I argue that a skater potentially the lowest TES of the field and still deserve the highest PCS.

As for Hanyu and Chan:
In the SP, I found the judging of the PCS very good. Hanyu was clean and amazing and Chan's multiple mistakes ruined the program a bit, so Hanyu getting higher PCS for PE, CH and IN were absolutey correct IMO. In the LP, it made sense that Chan got higher PCS than Haynu but both skaters were scored too high compared to the other skaters.
 

qwertyskates

Medalist
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
I wouldn't say -1 point is a lower PCS at all. In that case then you have to agree PC unfairly received lower LP PCS (-1) here compared to TEB.

It's also not just 1 jump but low & -tve GOE scores for other elements, how can that not make a difference to Machida's SP performance?

I can apply the same logic of yours to PC's performance, that despite TES mistakes, he deserves his PCS, yet in another post, you said you hope judges will have the courage to mark down his PCS if he makes mistakes.


At GPF, Hanyu's PCS jumped, +11, while PC's PCS was actually lowered by -1 compared to TEB. So no, if there's overscoring of PCS at GPF, it's YH's. PC skated relatively clean LP at GPF, YH didn't, yet the difference in PCS amounted to +12 points for YH, in a competition where even 0.01 would be a decider.

When the entire season's PCS is considered, the jumps in marks are even more astronomical than YH's. :laugh:

YH is talented, no doubt, but his best thus far is nowhere near PC's or other greats' best. My hopes for OGM is much higher than what I've seen from YH, perhaps he'll be ready for Korea 2018.
 

David21

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
I wouldn't say -1 point is a lower PCS at all. In that case then you have to agree PC unfairly received lower LP PCS (-1) here compared to TEB.

It's also not just 1 jump but low & -tve GOE scores for other elements, how can that not make a difference to Machida's SP performance?


Again, there is no rule which says that PCS are dependant on the TES. So Machida got lower GOEs at the GPF than usual...how does that affect his Skating Skills, Transitions or Choreography? Yeah, you guessed: Not at all. It *may* affect his scores for P/E but even that not necessarily the case.


I can apply the same logic of yours to PC's performance, that despite TES mistakes, he deserves his PCS, yet in another post, you said you hope judges will have the courage to mark down his PCS if he makes mistakes.


At GPF, Hanyu's PCS jumped, +11, while PC's PCS was actually lowered by -1 compared to TEB. So no, if there's overscoring of PCS at GPF, it's YH's. PC skated relatively clean LP at GPF, YH didn't, yet the difference in PCS amounted to +12 points for YH, in a competition where even 0.01 would be a decider.

When the entire season's PCS is considered, the jumps in marks are even more astronomical than YH's. :laugh:


Again: Marks from different competitions cannot be compared like you are doing it. Hanyu skated the best I've ever seen him at the GPF (I haven't seen all of his programs at the other Grand Prix events) so it make sense that his PCS were higher than usual. I said before that he stil got inflated scores for skating at home (so got Chan for reputation) and I'm criticising that.
 

qwertyskates

Medalist
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
If there's no rule or principle, i.e. poor TES does not affect PCS, then you must agree your opinion of PC's PCS isn't based on any either. What applies to PC by judges is similar to what is applied to Machida here, i.e. even if his TES fell by half, i.e. he performed 50% of his technical elements, he is entirely entitled to his full PCS as if he performed fully for his TES. So remember, PC's next falls or botched jumps, i.e. TES failures, including those at the Olympics, should not affect his PCS awarded by judges! No cries of "foul!" when that happens. :biggrin:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Again, there is no rule which says that PCS are dependant on the TES. So Machida got lower GOEs at the GPF than usual...how does that affect his Skating Skills, Transitions or Choreography? Yeah, you guessed: Not at all.

To use your own statement, how can Hanyu's CH, SS, and TR scores go up a whole point when he performed technically better at the GPF but his programs remained essentially the same from TEB to GPF? It's understandable if PE and IN went up (even if by a lot) but those other PCS scores shouldn't have jumped so high. It's certainly greater than any jump in PCS Chan has ever received.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Patrick would never do a posing section for 15 seconds because he doesn't take those kinds of breaks... and yes, it's a break... not some purposeful theatrical section full of gravitas as you're trying to make it seem to be.

That must be why people greatly adore Yagudin, Lambiel, etc. Because those sections of their programs were worthless and didn't create a significant effect that has stuck in peoples' memories. Keep telling yourself that.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
A skater can be faster and smoother from one competition to the next which will improve SS and possibly TR scores (because the transitions become more CLEAR in what they are when there's more power and smoothness to the skating). Also, if a skater skates with more confidence, it could affect CH as well because it looks more cohesive.
 

yuki

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
If there's no rule or principle, i.e. poor TES does not affect PCS, then you must agree your opinion of PC's PCS isn't based on any either. What applies to PC by judges is similar to what is applied to Machida here, i.e. even if his TES fell by half, i.e. he performed 50% of his technical elements, he is entirely entitled to his full PCS as if he performed fully for his TES. So remember, PC's next falls or botched jumps, i.e. TES failures, including those at the Olympics, should not affect his PCS awarded by judges! No cries of "foul!" when that happens. :biggrin:

Machida's TES was so low mainly because he Zayaked (i.e. his 3Lz-2T combo wasn't counted at all), not because he performed "half of his technical elements". There is no reason for this kind of error to affect PCS (as opposed to falling, stepping out and other visibly disruptive jump mistakes), so this isn't at all like what Patrick usually does.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I was surprised that with Machida performing similar to CoR (yes, he landed a 3A+3T in CoR but still did 2 quads and 2 axels), yet his PCS (82.50 CoR vs. 82.30 at GPF) was actually the same. Like, it's almost as though the judges were actually consistent in spite of Machida's home ice advantage... guess they saved all the homecooked PCS for Hanyu and Oda? :eek:hwell:
 

cheerio2

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
I'm not sure how Hanyu's scores rising from one event to the next proves anything. That's like saying, "He just got a big raise...therefore he must be overpaid." But it proves nothing. The whole point of CoP is that it's supposed to be more objective, and the scores should match the performance on that day. From what I saw, the scores for Hanyu were justified by his performance at GPF and compared to what everyone else did. He was fast, had good flow, huge jumps, lots of transitions. I do think Chan has better skating skills but Hanyu's was still good.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I'm not sure how Hanyu's scores rising from one event to the next proves anything. That's like saying, "He just got a big raise...therefore he must be overpaid." But it proves nothing. The whole point of CoP is that it's supposed to be more objective, and the scores should match the performance on that day. From what I saw, the scores for Hanyu were justified by his performance at GPF and compared to what everyone else did. He was fast, had good flow, huge jumps, lots of transitions. I do think Chan has better skating skills but Hanyu's was still good.

I agree. Particularly with someone like Hanyu who does a lot of difficult transitions into and out of elements, when he misses jumps it is sometimes because he is off balance on the take-offs, so that could indicate lower quality of the transitional elements when he has a weak performance. When he is on balance his skating is like no one else.
 
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