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Thread: Can patrick chan close the gap on yuzuru hanyu?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    For the record too though I can't link nor have the time to locate, there was a video of Weir stating flat out that he did not like Chan. When asked why, he did some mocking which Chan haters on the site enjoyed thoroughly. (I never brought it up here at the time deeming it unnecessary to start any blown out debate.) It is no secret Weir has expressed his dislike of Chan at least in the past for reasons one may agree or disagree with. I've been hoping he would be professional and neutral as a commentator.

    Some people here sometimes quote YT comments to support their views. Personal opinions of biased people are hardly credible or validation.

    Letting somebody win is a very common joke when conceding. It is a concession, just like it's understood what a person means when he says, "I didn't win the first game, he didn't lose the second and I wanted a draw for the third but he wouldn't let me.''

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    For the record too though I can't link nor have the time to locate, there was a video of Weir stating flat out that he did not like Chan. When asked why, he did some mocking which Chan haters on the site enjoyed thoroughly. (I never brought it up here at the time deeming it unnecessary to start any blown out debate.) It is no secret Weir has expressed his dislike of Chan at least in the past for reasons one may agree or disagree with. I've been hoping he would be professional and neutral as a commentator.

    Some people here sometimes quote YT comments to support their views. Personal opinions of biased people are hardly credible or validation.

    Letting somebody win is a very common joke when conceding. It is a concession, just like it's understood what a person means when he says, "I didn't win the first game, he didn't lose the second and I wanted a draw for the third but he wouldn't let me.''
    I posted that because it talked about the Yuzuru vs. Patrick comparison. That's why I quoted the whole thing, including Tara's comments. More people post GPF, see Yuzuru as a contender for gold in Sochi; I think that's worth noting.

    Also, Johnny has been very complimentary of Patrick throughout the series, so i don't see this comment as a way to make Patrick look bad. He's just staying his opinion; there's nothing unprofessional about that. (Although based on his past comments, perhaps he could be consider hypocritical, since some have pointed out that he's said much of the same when he lost the U.S. title to Evan in 2008).

  3. #93
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I know you're a "lambiel fan" and all, but calling Chan's interpretation of Four Seasons as bland and forgettable is completely absurd -- especially when you compare it to Lambiel's Four Seasons. Lambiel had nowhere near the speed, depth of edges, variety of transitions
    NONE of those things inherently have anything to do with interpretation. They are tools that can possibly be used to interpret music, but in and of themselves are simply technical attributes.

    Interpretation is about transferring the meaning and emotion of music into movement and theater.

    Chan's interpretation is most definitely inferior to Lambiel's. He does not dedicate his entire being to portraying the abstract ideals of the music, as Lambiel does. Chan's choreography is inferior as well, because the movements do not create as much rapport with each other and combine into a greater whole. You need to separate difficulty from what choreography and interpretation actually mean. A more difficult piece of choreography (aka choreography that displays a higher level of skating skills and transitions) can easily be a far inferior piece of choreography.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Machida in his mistakes-plagued SP scored 26 pts for TES, yet his PCS was 40+, that's unrealistic.

    It was totally realistic. His TES were so low because his whole jump combo wasn't counted at all (beause of some stupid rule), and not because he made many errors which could have been distracting.


    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Wow, I just spit out of my coffee reading that one. Chan who has the reputation around the skating World already as the most held up skater in history, with the largest number of hugely controversial wins in history is "undermarked" in anything. That is rich.

    Indeed. Considering he got a ridiculous 9.71 for IN for his LP, I think it is safe to say that Chan is still getting concistantly overscored by the judges, even in Japan where he had to compete against 4 good Japanese skaters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    I said GOE was marked in YH's favor at GPF, not "inflated" GOE. I refer you to wallylutz's most excellent post #74 for details.

    TEB vs GPF scores is telling. PCS is much higher but so was GOE. It's not one big obvious gesture, but a little shaved here, a little added there that amounts to a medal color change.

    You're comparing GOEs across competitions without taking into consideration how well the elements were actually executed. I think Patrick was marked very highly by the judges in terms of GOE here. Patrick had to work hard on all of his elements at the GPF, many of his jumps did not have great landings or were a little off in some way. Kurt, the Eurosport commentators, and others have acknowledged this. Despite that, he received comparable GOEs to Yuzuru who had easy jumps and better flow out of them. GOE is something that can and should fluctuate from competition to competition depending on how the element is performed that day. I don't think this is 'telling' in any way, and Yuzuru could've received even higher marks on some of his elements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spread beagle View Post
    Overmarking is continuing in ridiculous manners. I actually like all marks going down, but if not and if Hanyu get 92 PCS than we can put Chan at 99 constantly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    NONE of those things inherently have anything to do with interpretation. They are tools that can possibly be used to interpret music, but in and of themselves are simply technical attributes.

    Interpretation is about transferring the meaning and emotion of music into movement and theater.

    Chan's interpretation is most definitely inferior to Lambiel's. He does not dedicate his entire being to portraying the abstract ideals of the music, as Lambiel does. Chan's choreography is inferior as well, because the movements do not create as much rapport with each other and combine into a greater whole. You need to separate difficulty from what choreography and interpretation actually mean. A more difficult piece of choreography (aka choreography that displays a higher level of skating skills and transitions) can easily be a far inferior piece of choreography.
    Your bias towards Chan will always be skewed. I can't imagine how anyone would call a FS with a 15-second pose break difficult choreo. How on earth do you justify such a lengthy pause with a few arm movements as good choreography? Not to mention his interpretation in his footwork sequences is distinctly different from throughout the program as if he pulls a Plushenko an turns on the "high energy/expression" switch. Chan will never interpret music the way you want him to in order for you to deem it as "difficult". There are several people including the judges who consistently and thoroughly disagree with you. Surely there are some judges who dislike Chan but they continue to acknowledge his excellent skating and interpretation with high scores.

    As for Weir labelling Chan's obviously sarcastic comment as sheer arrogance is pretty rich coming from one of the most pompous outspoken skaters ever. Perhaps the word you should use personally to describe Chan isn't arrogant but infuriating and jealousy-inducing.

  7. #97
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pitterpatter
    You're comparing GOEs across competitions without taking into consideration how well the elements were actually executed. I think Patrick was marked very highly by the judges in terms of GOE here. Patrick had to work hard on all of his elements at the GPF, many of his jumps did not have great landings or were a little off in some way. Kurt, the Eurosport commentators, and others have acknowledged this. Despite that, he received comparable GOEs to Yuzuru who had easy jumps and better flow out of them. GOE is something that can and should fluctuate from competition to competition depending on how the element is performed that day. I don't think this is 'telling' in any way, and Yuzuru could've received even higher marks on some of his elements.
    100% agreed. GOE should vary. Instead of doing some comparisons to TEB - look at his elements from the GPF and say which ones supposedly got too much points... (yes, that means you, qwertyskates). If the only thing you say is "his GOE were a lot higher than at TEB", that doesn't mean much. Despite the fact that the execution might have been diffferent, I might aswell say he was undermarked in GOE in TEB (which I don't even want to do now - it's just meant to show you that this comparison doesn't help you much).

    Patrick also got very similar GOE to his TEB performance, which is plain weird. A lot of the elements in his LP were done so much better at TEB, yet they were scored nearly the same. That doesn't really look right to me either, but nobody cries foul because of that (at least I didn't read it). But Yuzuru getting higher GOE for a better performance is supposed to be weird? I don't mean to start a "Chan was overmarked too"-counter attack, we've been there often enough, but scores vary between competitions and this has always been the case. If you want to critizice Yuzuru's marks than do that because of what he actually did on the ice, not because of what the judges did some weeks earlier.

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Your bias towards Chan will always be skewed.
    The bias here is your own. People all over the World who understand skating have repeatedly stated they feel he is overmarked. Your statements are focused on nothing but propping up a skater from your country. How is it that I am biased when I even said Patrick's program this season is better than Hanyu's?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I can't imagine how anyone would call a FS with a 15-second pose break difficult choreo. How on earth do you justify such a lengthy pause with a few arm movements as good choreography?
    Again you say difficult, in reference to skating skills, as if that means anything. It doesn't seem like you understand what choreography is at all. Choreography is not how many turns you can do non-stop and how fast you can skate. Choreography is purposeful, characteristic movement that should convey a greater meaning when taken together as a whole.

    "Posing" for 15 seconds can certainly be difficult, just in a different way. Do you not understand what theater is at all? Do you think acting is something that anyone can easily do at a high level? Being able to use your arms, face, and body language to emote is a very worthy ability, and it's something that is measured in competitive figure skating. Let's see Patrick try to do a posing section with the same level of gravitas or appeal as Lambiel or Yagudin. The fact is he can't. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with that either. People have different styles and abilities. The problem is when people fail to appreciate these differences. You continually warp Chan's basic skating ability into proof that he has excellent choreography and interpretation, which is total ignorance for an entire artform.

    This is a problem in general that CoP has created for skating. As people add more and more transitions into their program to help their scores in that area, their choreography and interpretation and performance often tends to become worse and worse. Putting all kinds of steps/turns into and between your elements displays a greater technical ability, but leaves the skater focusing less on the actual purpose of the movement, the character of the entire program, the sound of music, and the immersion of performance. It's possible for all of this movement to work artistically, which is of course the ideal, but usually it does not. If the judges actually scored the components correctly this would not be as much of a problem, but the judges instead just give a general mark to skaters for their entire PCS and vary each mark only slightly (in part because they don't understand how to judge all of this to begin with).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    The bias here is your own. People all over the World who understand skating have repeatedly stated they feel he is overmarked. Your statements are focused on nothing but propping up a skater from your country. How is it that I am biased when I even said Patrick's program this season is better than Hanyu's?



    Again you say difficult, in reference to skating skills, as if that means anything. It doesn't seem like you understand what choreography is at all. Choreography is not how many turns you can do non-stop and how fast you can skate. Choreography is purposeful, characteristic movement that should convey a greater meaning when taken together as a whole.

    "Posing" for 15 seconds can certainly be difficult, just in a different way. Do you not understand what theater is at all? Do you think acting is something that anyone can easily do at a high level? Being able to use your arms, face, and body language to emote is a very worthy ability, and it's something that is measured in competitive figure skating. Let's see Patrick try to do a posing section with the same level of gravitas or appeal as Lambiel or Yagudin. The fact is he can't. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with that either. People have different styles and abilities. The problem is when people fail to appreciate these differences. You continually warp Chan's basic skating ability into proof that he has excellent choreography and interpretation, which is total ignorance for an entire artform.

    This is a problem in general that CoP has created for skating. As people add more and more transitions into their program to help their scores in that area, their choreography and interpretation and performance often tends to become worse and worse. Putting all kinds of steps/turns into and between your elements displays a greater technical ability, but leaves the skater focusing less on the actual purpose of the movement, the character of the entire program, the sound of music, and the immersion of performance. It's possible for all of this movement to work artistically, which is of course the ideal, but usually it does not. If the judges actually scored the components correctly this would not be as much of a problem, but the judges instead just give a general mark to skaters for their entire PCS and vary each mark only slightly (in part because they don't understand how to judge all of this to begin with).

    People all over the world have repeatedly said that he is marked fine. And certainly judges all over the world consistently mark him. Even the judges who have the utmost hate for him will never give him below 8's because they are aware of how good his skating truly is.

    Patrick would never do a posing section for 15 seconds because he doesn't take those kinds of breaks... and yes, it's a break... not some purposeful theatrical section full of gravitas as you're trying to make it seem to be. As far as purposeful movements, you will never acknowledge what a purposeful movement from Chan looks like. He's taken the haterade from people such as yourself and actually improved his artistry greatly in the past season or two. However, there is no pleasing people like you. You'll staunchly say the sky is yellow no matter how blue it tries to be. To say he doesn't have the "purposeful difficulty" is bs... figure skating is a sport, and if we are taking difficulty, my money goes to the guy with the higher skating and technical ability, not the one with the most "genuine" histrionics (that isn't Chan of course, since no matter how Chan skates he will never seem "genuine" or have "purpose of movement" enough for you). It's the Olympics not the Oscars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    It was totally realistic. His TES were so low because his whole jump combo wasn't counted at all (beause of some stupid rule), and not because he made many errors which could have been distracting.



    With all the falls and stumbles, Machida's TES dropped from Skate America 50 and 44.5 at Rostelecom to 26.5 at GPF, yet his PCS remained the same at 40+ for both, and similar to his 41+ at Skate America where he won Gold, even though he skated without falls at both SA & Rostelecom, but poorly at GPF.

    There's definitely unrealistic PCS here.

    Otoh, YH's LP PCS went from 76+ at SC, 81+ at TEB to 92+ GPF within a few weeks...

    PC's LP PCS went from 90+ at SC, 96+ at TEB to 95+ GPF at the same events and time frame. The Math speaks for itself.

    Notice that the lowest PCS PC received this season was at Skate Canada.

    I like Machida and YH and I have no problems with them receiving home advantage. It is however double standards to create an uproar about Canada but state with absolute certainty that Japan doesn't do it, when it is quite blatant that almost all the Feds do.

    As for Weir's disparaging comments about PC, didn't he say something similar when he lost to Lysacek in a tie before?

    People who live in glass towers....

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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    With all the falls and stumbles, Machida's TES dropped from Skate America 50 and 44.5 at Rostelecom to 26.5 at GPF, yet his PCS remained the same at 40+ for both, and similar to his 41+ at Skate America where he won Gold, even though he skated without falls at both SA & Rostelecom.

    There's definitely unrealistic PCS here.

    Did you read my post? Machida did not have "falls and stumbles" in the SP. He had one fall and that's it and there is no rule which states that your PCS have to drop when you have a fall at the beginning of the program and the judges think that is not distracting from the overall program. And you cannot compare PCS from different competitions like you are doing anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Otoh, YH's LP PCS went from 76+ at SC, 81+ at TEB to 92+ GPF within a few weeks...

    I like Machida and YH and I have no problems with them receiving home advantage. It is however double standards to create an uproar about Canada but state with absolute certainty that Japan doesn't do it, when it is quite blatant that almost all the Feds do.

    I DO have a problem with skaters getting home advantage, but maybe the judges thought that Hanyu skated better at the GPF than at previous competitions. Aren't the judges supposed to mark what actually happens on the ice?

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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    Did you read my post? Machida did not have "falls and stumbles" in the SP. He had one fall and that's it and there is no rule which states that your PCS have to drop when you have a fall at the beginning of the program and the judges think that is not distracting from the overall program. And you cannot compare PCS from different competitions like you are doing anyway.





    I DO have a problem with skaters getting home advantage, but maybe the judges thought that Hanyu skated better at the GPF than at previous competitions. Aren't the judges supposed to mark what actually happens on the ice?

    Did you even watch his SP? He botched two jumps and did poorly on the spins. If you insist that poorly performing the elements to score only half of TES in one season and dropping one's place from 1st to last should not affect one's PCS, then please apply the same standard to PC's PCS scores will you?

    When PC skated poorly but received high PCS, everyone cries foul. When it happens to Machida, then it's "PCS should not be affected by poor TES".

    I rest my case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    100% agreed. GOE should vary. Instead of doing some comparisons to TEB - look at his elements from the GPF and say which ones supposedly got too much points... (yes, that means you, qwertyskates). If the only thing you say is "his GOE were a lot higher than at TEB", that doesn't mean much. Despite the fact that the execution might have been diffferent, I might aswell say he was undermarked in GOE in TEB (which I don't even want to do now - it's just meant to show you that this comparison doesn't help you much).
    At GPF, there were poorly performed elements in YH's LP, eg his moving and faltering spin, yet PC received 0 and - tve for his step out of final spin while YH received 0 and +tve.

    Huge PCS boost (40+, 42+ to 45+for SP, 76+, 81+ to 92+ for LP) + all these little points in GOEs add up to deliver gold, that's home advantage.

    And then there's Machida's unchanged SP PCS when he dropped from 1st at SA to last at GPF...

    Either PCS is related to TES performance or it isn't, take your pick, you can't have it both ways when it comes to GPF.

    The difference between you and other PC's critics and me is that I acknowledge what's at work here, but you apply one set of standards to PC and another to YH, Machida, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Did you even watch his SP? He botched two jumps and did poorly on the spins. If you insist that poorly performing the elements to score only half of TES in one season and dropping one's place from 1st to last should not affect one's PCS, then please apply the same standard to PC's PCS scores will you?

    I apply the same standard to everyone.
    And I did not see that Machida "did poorly on the spins" or "botched two jumps".


    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    When PC skated poorly but received high PCS, everyone cries foul. When it happens to Machida, then it's "PCS should not be affected by poor TES".

    Who is "everyone"? When PC's mistakes don't affect the program, then his PCS should not be affected either. But the problem with him is that his PCS are too high in general, even if he skates clean. I have already mentioned his ridiculous 9.71 for IN at the GPF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    I apply the same standard to everyone.
    And I did not see that Machida "did poorly on the spins" or "botched two jumps".





    Who is "everyone"? When PC's mistakes don't affect the program, then his PCS should not be affected either. But the problem with him is that his PCS are too high in general, even if he skates clean. I have already mentioned his ridiculous 9.71 for IN at the GPF.
    If you are unable to see with your own eyes then at least look at the score sheet, will you?

    1st place PCS and last place performance PCS remaining the same is ok with you? If you insist PCS should remain constant despite good or poor performance then why do you accept huge boost for YH's PCS and pick on PC's high PCS when he made mistakes?

    I can also insist based on your inconsistently applied standards & criteria that PC deserves his PCS every time and YH's PCS is ridiculous,ie. logic and math be damned.

    As for LP PCS, PC's remained within a range of 5 this season, Machida's a range of 2, YH's a range of 16! SP PC's range is 2, YH's range is 5 !

    PC's PCS range in total is 7 advantage combined, YH's PCS range at GPF is 21 advantage (3 times PC) within a few weeks, enough to deliver gold. So whose PCS is more consistent and realistic given that you insist Machida's PCS should not change whether he botched or delivered 1st for his programs?

    You turn a blind eye (literally cannot see a difference between 1st and last place performance) when it's others' boosted PCS but come down hard on PC's PCS, that's the truth.

    Like I said, I'm consistent, I accept blatant home advantage/judges' favoritism for ALL skaters when they occur, but you guys only come down hard on PC. I'm not even a PC uber, I am a skating uber, a fine skate is a fine skate, and I think YH is not there, certainly not his GPF skate, not even close to the skating history's greats, or PC's TEB performance.

    Sochi is still PC's (and Mao's) to lose.

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