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Thread: Can patrick chan close the gap on yuzuru hanyu?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalina View Post
    No, I can't show you. Can you show me the tapes of the japanese referee bribing the other judges so that they overscore Hanyu? Probably not. Can you lend us a time machine, so that we might travel to the future and assure ourselves that what you said will definitely happen? Nope.
    I've already explained what I think is the reason for such a big increase in PCS. That explanation makes sense to me, as I've seen the judging system work during these past years. If it doesn't make sense to you, it's your business. It's not like any of us can bring proof of what we're saying, here. Threads like these only exist for the sake of arguing.
    I agree with this, I think this thread has pretty much run its course in terms of new arguments/thoughts. This thread topic is pretty to begin with, Patrick is definitely still the favourite heading into the Olympics, although Yuzuru has a real chance at the OGM.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Chan is not under marked for PCS and it has actually been suitably marked this season. It's Hanyu's outlying marks at the GPF that are wackier. The difference should be at least 2.5 marks in the SP if both go clean and it should be at least 5 points if both skate a clean free. I'm a fan of both but it's obvious that Chan is a better artistic skater (though Hanyu has improved he should not be getting 92 points with a fall).
    Are you saying the difference should be 5 points in PCS if both skate clean in the free, or 5 points in total? If its the former then I think that's valid, and the marks at the GPF would support that. If it's the latter, then its pretty questionable. As others have established, Yuzuru has a ~7 point TES base value advantage, and as both skaters should get comparable GOEs, the PCS differential would have to be ~12 points, which I don't see happening.

  2. #92
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    Yep I mean 5 points difference in PCS... so if both skate clean Chan should get 96-97 and Hanyu should get 91-92. Considering Hanyu's BV/GOE, this should still win the FS and earn him the victory overall (assuming clean Hanyu is slightly behind clean Chan outside of Japan after the SP), which is correct if both go clean with maxed out content in the FS. With a fall (and no other major error), Hanyu should be getting no more than 88-89, and Chan with a fall and no other major error should get no more than 93-94.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    Chan is undermarked for pcs overall
    Wow, I just spit out of my coffee reading that one. Chan who has the reputation around the skating World already as the most held up skater in history, with the largest number of hugely controversial wins in history is "undermarked" in anything. That is rich. How on earth could he be undermarked in PCS. The judges are giving him many high 9s and 10s already (even for his bland and forgettable intereptation of Four Seasons which pales in comparision to Lambiel's years back which got mostly mid 7s, what a joke).

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalina View Post
    No, I can't show you. Can you show me the tapes of the japanese referee bribing the other judges so that they overscore Hanyu?
    Did anyone make any an allegation of bribing anywhere in this thread? If so, I must have missed it. Care to show me how or where you read "bribes" into this thread?

    Can you lend us a time machine, so that we might travel to the future and assure ourselves that what you said will definitely happen? Nope.
    Again, I am completely lost at what futuristic predictions you think I made? There is a big difference between suggesting that an event will unlikely repeat in the future based on the unique circumstances of a past event and making a prediction. Perhaps you need to take a dictionary and read what's the definition of a prediction to begin with.

    I've already explained what I think is the reason for such a big increase in PCS. That explanation makes sense to me, as I've seen the judging system work during these past years. If it doesn't make sense to you, it's your business. It's not like any of us can bring proof of what we're saying, here. Threads like these only exist for the sake of arguing.
    Here lies the problem. You perceive a conversation here as an argument - a zero sum game. Sorry to tell you that you have it all wrong. I am here to share my perspective and read what others have to say. GS is neither a court nor is anybody on trial here. Your demand for proofs here and there is just plain rude and uncalled for. And even if there is proof, for the sake of argument, I am convinced it wouldn't change the perception of those who are already hell bent in justifying the unjustifiable. Figure Skating has long suffered from this kind of mentality until it all exploded in SLC 2002. While this event is nothing like it, not even close - it doesn't do anyone any favor not to have critical thinking. Instead, these forums tend to fill with irrational and zealous posts making outrageous claims one after the other, which is anything but critical thinking and self reflection. Once again, as far as I know, no one, nor I or anyone else, has made any allegation of bribing however not surprisingly, such false and outrageous accusation was started by someone to totally derail the conversation in a shameful manner. You may want a shouting match, I can tell you however, I am not interested in debating the irrational.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Haha, this should be fun - which GOE were so inflated?
    I said GOE was marked in YH's favor at GPF, not "inflated" GOE. I refer you to wallylutz's most excellent post #74 for details.

    TEB vs GPF scores is telling. PCS is much higher but so was GOE. It's not one big obvious gesture, but a little shaved here, a little added there that amounts to a medal color change.

    Machida in his mistakes-plagued SP scored 26 pts for TES, yet his PCS was 40+, that's unrealistic.

    It is expected that home advantage is at work here, like elsewhere,including Canada. however, this doesn't mean PC is now beaten by YH for Sochi, as some are implying.

    I like YH, the skater, but he is not a better skater than PC when the whole package is considered, especially between the jumps. In future, when he has refined his skating and program more, then most certainly he will be a great skater.

    Though he's great at jumps, he hasn't delivered yet a stunning, moving, near perfect program like PC, Yagudin, Plushenko, Lambiel, etc. did, not at this GPF. Of course as he's still at the beginning of his career, it's no surprise. I am looking forward to something heftier, heavier and more complex from YH in future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Wow, I just spit out of my coffee reading that one. Chan who has the reputation around the skating World already as the most held up skater in history, with the largest number of hugely controversial wins in history is "undermarked" in anything. That is rich. How on earth could he be undermarked in PCS. The judges are giving him many high 9s and 10s already (even for his bland and forgettable intereptation of Four Seasons which pales in comparision to Lambiel's years back which got mostly mid 7s, what a joke).
    I know you're a "lambiel fan" and all, but calling Chan's interpretation of Four Seasons as bland and forgettable is completely absurd -- especially when you compare it to Lambiel's Four Seasons. Lambiel had nowhere near the speed, depth of edges, variety of transitions, or the quality of elements as Chan (other than spins - and even in Lambiel's '06 Worlds FS many positions weren't held). At the time, yes, Lambiel's Four Seasons was marvellous compared to the other guys (and the footwork was particularly lively and well-interpreted), but its choreography and difficulty isn't even close to what we see now in Chan's program. And of course, as a Chan basher and Lambiel uber, you'll say Lambiel's interpretation was better... perhaps you are referring to his interpretation in that section where he stands for literally 15 seconds?

    Although I suppose Chan's FS outfit "pales in comparison" to that horrendous, garish zebra/tiger print top which is arguably the worst outfit in men's figure skating history (as Kulik breathes a sigh of relief).

  7. #97
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    For the record:

    http://www.nbcolympics.com/news/tara...wards-olympics

    NBCOlympics.com: The surprise of the Grand Prix Final was Japan’s Yuzuru Hanyu’s win over reigning and three-time world champion Patrick Chan.
    Weir: Being no stranger to wild proclamations myself, I found it odd that Patrick said that he "let" Yuzuru win the Grand Prix Final [after the competition]. I found it arrogant in the strongest sense of the word. Yuzuru really shined in Fukuoka and after a slow start to the season in comparison to Chan's early November world records in Paris.
    Lipinski: I think Patrick was probably thinking, "Oh man, this is not good timing," after seeing how Hanyu performed at the Grand Prix Final. After the end of the free skate, I thought, "OK, this guy – Yuzuru Hanyu – really has a really good chance in Sochi." This set Hanyu apart from other contenders: he handled the pressure, stood up to that pressure and stood up to Patrick.
    Weir: This was the last meeting of the two before the Olympics and the fact that Yuzuru was victorious, Chan will hopefully be served a wake-up call of sorts and realize that this isn't a one-man game. I am hopeful that both men will skate flawless programs at Sochi and we'll really see who the man in charge is.

  8. #98
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    Being no stranger to wild proclamations myself, I found it odd that Patrick said that he "let" Yuzuru win the Grand Prix Final [after the competition]. I found it arrogant in the strongest sense of the word

    So true Johnny, but having competed with Chan for a few years, you should also surely know that is who Patrick Chan is as a person in the "strongest sense of the word".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    For the record too though I can't link nor have the time to locate, there was a video of Weir stating flat out that he did not like Chan. When asked why, he did some mocking which Chan haters on the site enjoyed thoroughly. (I never brought it up here at the time deeming it unnecessary to start any blown out debate.) It is no secret Weir has expressed his dislike of Chan at least in the past for reasons one may agree or disagree with. I've been hoping he would be professional and neutral as a commentator.

    Some people here sometimes quote YT comments to support their views. Personal opinions of biased people are hardly credible or validation.

    Letting somebody win is a very common joke when conceding. It is a concession, just like it's understood what a person means when he says, "I didn't win the first game, he didn't lose the second and I wanted a draw for the third but he wouldn't let me.''

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    For the record too though I can't link nor have the time to locate, there was a video of Weir stating flat out that he did not like Chan. When asked why, he did some mocking which Chan haters on the site enjoyed thoroughly. (I never brought it up here at the time deeming it unnecessary to start any blown out debate.) It is no secret Weir has expressed his dislike of Chan at least in the past for reasons one may agree or disagree with. I've been hoping he would be professional and neutral as a commentator.

    Some people here sometimes quote YT comments to support their views. Personal opinions of biased people are hardly credible or validation.

    Letting somebody win is a very common joke when conceding. It is a concession, just like it's understood what a person means when he says, "I didn't win the first game, he didn't lose the second and I wanted a draw for the third but he wouldn't let me.''
    I posted that because it talked about the Yuzuru vs. Patrick comparison. That's why I quoted the whole thing, including Tara's comments. More people post GPF, see Yuzuru as a contender for gold in Sochi; I think that's worth noting.

    Also, Johnny has been very complimentary of Patrick throughout the series, so i don't see this comment as a way to make Patrick look bad. He's just staying his opinion; there's nothing unprofessional about that. (Although based on his past comments, perhaps he could be consider hypocritical, since some have pointed out that he's said much of the same when he lost the U.S. title to Evan in 2008).

  11. #101
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I know you're a "lambiel fan" and all, but calling Chan's interpretation of Four Seasons as bland and forgettable is completely absurd -- especially when you compare it to Lambiel's Four Seasons. Lambiel had nowhere near the speed, depth of edges, variety of transitions
    NONE of those things inherently have anything to do with interpretation. They are tools that can possibly be used to interpret music, but in and of themselves are simply technical attributes.

    Interpretation is about transferring the meaning and emotion of music into movement and theater.

    Chan's interpretation is most definitely inferior to Lambiel's. He does not dedicate his entire being to portraying the abstract ideals of the music, as Lambiel does. Chan's choreography is inferior as well, because the movements do not create as much rapport with each other and combine into a greater whole. You need to separate difficulty from what choreography and interpretation actually mean. A more difficult piece of choreography (aka choreography that displays a higher level of skating skills and transitions) can easily be a far inferior piece of choreography.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Machida in his mistakes-plagued SP scored 26 pts for TES, yet his PCS was 40+, that's unrealistic.

    It was totally realistic. His TES were so low because his whole jump combo wasn't counted at all (beause of some stupid rule), and not because he made many errors which could have been distracting.


    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Wow, I just spit out of my coffee reading that one. Chan who has the reputation around the skating World already as the most held up skater in history, with the largest number of hugely controversial wins in history is "undermarked" in anything. That is rich.

    Indeed. Considering he got a ridiculous 9.71 for IN for his LP, I think it is safe to say that Chan is still getting concistantly overscored by the judges, even in Japan where he had to compete against 4 good Japanese skaters.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    I said GOE was marked in YH's favor at GPF, not "inflated" GOE. I refer you to wallylutz's most excellent post #74 for details.

    TEB vs GPF scores is telling. PCS is much higher but so was GOE. It's not one big obvious gesture, but a little shaved here, a little added there that amounts to a medal color change.

    You're comparing GOEs across competitions without taking into consideration how well the elements were actually executed. I think Patrick was marked very highly by the judges in terms of GOE here. Patrick had to work hard on all of his elements at the GPF, many of his jumps did not have great landings or were a little off in some way. Kurt, the Eurosport commentators, and others have acknowledged this. Despite that, he received comparable GOEs to Yuzuru who had easy jumps and better flow out of them. GOE is something that can and should fluctuate from competition to competition depending on how the element is performed that day. I don't think this is 'telling' in any way, and Yuzuru could've received even higher marks on some of his elements.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by spread beagle View Post
    Overmarking is continuing in ridiculous manners. I actually like all marks going down, but if not and if Hanyu get 92 PCS than we can put Chan at 99 constantly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    NONE of those things inherently have anything to do with interpretation. They are tools that can possibly be used to interpret music, but in and of themselves are simply technical attributes.

    Interpretation is about transferring the meaning and emotion of music into movement and theater.

    Chan's interpretation is most definitely inferior to Lambiel's. He does not dedicate his entire being to portraying the abstract ideals of the music, as Lambiel does. Chan's choreography is inferior as well, because the movements do not create as much rapport with each other and combine into a greater whole. You need to separate difficulty from what choreography and interpretation actually mean. A more difficult piece of choreography (aka choreography that displays a higher level of skating skills and transitions) can easily be a far inferior piece of choreography.
    Your bias towards Chan will always be skewed. I can't imagine how anyone would call a FS with a 15-second pose break difficult choreo. How on earth do you justify such a lengthy pause with a few arm movements as good choreography? Not to mention his interpretation in his footwork sequences is distinctly different from throughout the program as if he pulls a Plushenko an turns on the "high energy/expression" switch. Chan will never interpret music the way you want him to in order for you to deem it as "difficult". There are several people including the judges who consistently and thoroughly disagree with you. Surely there are some judges who dislike Chan but they continue to acknowledge his excellent skating and interpretation with high scores.

    As for Weir labelling Chan's obviously sarcastic comment as sheer arrogance is pretty rich coming from one of the most pompous outspoken skaters ever. Perhaps the word you should use personally to describe Chan isn't arrogant but infuriating and jealousy-inducing.

  15. #105
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pitterpatter
    You're comparing GOEs across competitions without taking into consideration how well the elements were actually executed. I think Patrick was marked very highly by the judges in terms of GOE here. Patrick had to work hard on all of his elements at the GPF, many of his jumps did not have great landings or were a little off in some way. Kurt, the Eurosport commentators, and others have acknowledged this. Despite that, he received comparable GOEs to Yuzuru who had easy jumps and better flow out of them. GOE is something that can and should fluctuate from competition to competition depending on how the element is performed that day. I don't think this is 'telling' in any way, and Yuzuru could've received even higher marks on some of his elements.
    100% agreed. GOE should vary. Instead of doing some comparisons to TEB - look at his elements from the GPF and say which ones supposedly got too much points... (yes, that means you, qwertyskates). If the only thing you say is "his GOE were a lot higher than at TEB", that doesn't mean much. Despite the fact that the execution might have been diffferent, I might aswell say he was undermarked in GOE in TEB (which I don't even want to do now - it's just meant to show you that this comparison doesn't help you much).

    Patrick also got very similar GOE to his TEB performance, which is plain weird. A lot of the elements in his LP were done so much better at TEB, yet they were scored nearly the same. That doesn't really look right to me either, but nobody cries foul because of that (at least I didn't read it). But Yuzuru getting higher GOE for a better performance is supposed to be weird? I don't mean to start a "Chan was overmarked too"-counter attack, we've been there often enough, but scores vary between competitions and this has always been the case. If you want to critizice Yuzuru's marks than do that because of what he actually did on the ice, not because of what the judges did some weeks earlier.

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