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Thread: Can patrick chan close the gap on yuzuru hanyu?

  1. #106
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Your bias towards Chan will always be skewed.
    The bias here is your own. People all over the World who understand skating have repeatedly stated they feel he is overmarked. Your statements are focused on nothing but propping up a skater from your country. How is it that I am biased when I even said Patrick's program this season is better than Hanyu's?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I can't imagine how anyone would call a FS with a 15-second pose break difficult choreo. How on earth do you justify such a lengthy pause with a few arm movements as good choreography?
    Again you say difficult, in reference to skating skills, as if that means anything. It doesn't seem like you understand what choreography is at all. Choreography is not how many turns you can do non-stop and how fast you can skate. Choreography is purposeful, characteristic movement that should convey a greater meaning when taken together as a whole.

    "Posing" for 15 seconds can certainly be difficult, just in a different way. Do you not understand what theater is at all? Do you think acting is something that anyone can easily do at a high level? Being able to use your arms, face, and body language to emote is a very worthy ability, and it's something that is measured in competitive figure skating. Let's see Patrick try to do a posing section with the same level of gravitas or appeal as Lambiel or Yagudin. The fact is he can't. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with that either. People have different styles and abilities. The problem is when people fail to appreciate these differences. You continually warp Chan's basic skating ability into proof that he has excellent choreography and interpretation, which is total ignorance for an entire artform.

    This is a problem in general that CoP has created for skating. As people add more and more transitions into their program to help their scores in that area, their choreography and interpretation and performance often tends to become worse and worse. Putting all kinds of steps/turns into and between your elements displays a greater technical ability, but leaves the skater focusing less on the actual purpose of the movement, the character of the entire program, the sound of music, and the immersion of performance. It's possible for all of this movement to work artistically, which is of course the ideal, but usually it does not. If the judges actually scored the components correctly this would not be as much of a problem, but the judges instead just give a general mark to skaters for their entire PCS and vary each mark only slightly (in part because they don't understand how to judge all of this to begin with).

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    The bias here is your own. People all over the World who understand skating have repeatedly stated they feel he is overmarked. Your statements are focused on nothing but propping up a skater from your country. How is it that I am biased when I even said Patrick's program this season is better than Hanyu's?



    Again you say difficult, in reference to skating skills, as if that means anything. It doesn't seem like you understand what choreography is at all. Choreography is not how many turns you can do non-stop and how fast you can skate. Choreography is purposeful, characteristic movement that should convey a greater meaning when taken together as a whole.

    "Posing" for 15 seconds can certainly be difficult, just in a different way. Do you not understand what theater is at all? Do you think acting is something that anyone can easily do at a high level? Being able to use your arms, face, and body language to emote is a very worthy ability, and it's something that is measured in competitive figure skating. Let's see Patrick try to do a posing section with the same level of gravitas or appeal as Lambiel or Yagudin. The fact is he can't. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with that either. People have different styles and abilities. The problem is when people fail to appreciate these differences. You continually warp Chan's basic skating ability into proof that he has excellent choreography and interpretation, which is total ignorance for an entire artform.

    This is a problem in general that CoP has created for skating. As people add more and more transitions into their program to help their scores in that area, their choreography and interpretation and performance often tends to become worse and worse. Putting all kinds of steps/turns into and between your elements displays a greater technical ability, but leaves the skater focusing less on the actual purpose of the movement, the character of the entire program, the sound of music, and the immersion of performance. It's possible for all of this movement to work artistically, which is of course the ideal, but usually it does not. If the judges actually scored the components correctly this would not be as much of a problem, but the judges instead just give a general mark to skaters for their entire PCS and vary each mark only slightly (in part because they don't understand how to judge all of this to begin with).

    People all over the world have repeatedly said that he is marked fine. And certainly judges all over the world consistently mark him. Even the judges who have the utmost hate for him will never give him below 8's because they are aware of how good his skating truly is.

    Patrick would never do a posing section for 15 seconds because he doesn't take those kinds of breaks... and yes, it's a break... not some purposeful theatrical section full of gravitas as you're trying to make it seem to be. As far as purposeful movements, you will never acknowledge what a purposeful movement from Chan looks like. He's taken the haterade from people such as yourself and actually improved his artistry greatly in the past season or two. However, there is no pleasing people like you. You'll staunchly say the sky is yellow no matter how blue it tries to be. To say he doesn't have the "purposeful difficulty" is bs... figure skating is a sport, and if we are taking difficulty, my money goes to the guy with the higher skating and technical ability, not the one with the most "genuine" histrionics (that isn't Chan of course, since no matter how Chan skates he will never seem "genuine" or have "purpose of movement" enough for you). It's the Olympics not the Oscars.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    It was totally realistic. His TES were so low because his whole jump combo wasn't counted at all (beause of some stupid rule), and not because he made many errors which could have been distracting.



    With all the falls and stumbles, Machida's TES dropped from Skate America 50 and 44.5 at Rostelecom to 26.5 at GPF, yet his PCS remained the same at 40+ for both, and similar to his 41+ at Skate America where he won Gold, even though he skated without falls at both SA & Rostelecom, but poorly at GPF.

    There's definitely unrealistic PCS here.

    Otoh, YH's LP PCS went from 76+ at SC, 81+ at TEB to 92+ GPF within a few weeks...

    PC's LP PCS went from 90+ at SC, 96+ at TEB to 95+ GPF at the same events and time frame. The Math speaks for itself.

    Notice that the lowest PCS PC received this season was at Skate Canada.

    I like Machida and YH and I have no problems with them receiving home advantage. It is however double standards to create an uproar about Canada but state with absolute certainty that Japan doesn't do it, when it is quite blatant that almost all the Feds do.

    As for Weir's disparaging comments about PC, didn't he say something similar when he lost to Lysacek in a tie before?

    People who live in glass towers....

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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    With all the falls and stumbles, Machida's TES dropped from Skate America 50 and 44.5 at Rostelecom to 26.5 at GPF, yet his PCS remained the same at 40+ for both, and similar to his 41+ at Skate America where he won Gold, even though he skated without falls at both SA & Rostelecom.

    There's definitely unrealistic PCS here.

    Did you read my post? Machida did not have "falls and stumbles" in the SP. He had one fall and that's it and there is no rule which states that your PCS have to drop when you have a fall at the beginning of the program and the judges think that is not distracting from the overall program. And you cannot compare PCS from different competitions like you are doing anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Otoh, YH's LP PCS went from 76+ at SC, 81+ at TEB to 92+ GPF within a few weeks...

    I like Machida and YH and I have no problems with them receiving home advantage. It is however double standards to create an uproar about Canada but state with absolute certainty that Japan doesn't do it, when it is quite blatant that almost all the Feds do.

    I DO have a problem with skaters getting home advantage, but maybe the judges thought that Hanyu skated better at the GPF than at previous competitions. Aren't the judges supposed to mark what actually happens on the ice?

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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    Did you read my post? Machida did not have "falls and stumbles" in the SP. He had one fall and that's it and there is no rule which states that your PCS have to drop when you have a fall at the beginning of the program and the judges think that is not distracting from the overall program. And you cannot compare PCS from different competitions like you are doing anyway.





    I DO have a problem with skaters getting home advantage, but maybe the judges thought that Hanyu skated better at the GPF than at previous competitions. Aren't the judges supposed to mark what actually happens on the ice?

    Did you even watch his SP? He botched two jumps and did poorly on the spins. If you insist that poorly performing the elements to score only half of TES in one season and dropping one's place from 1st to last should not affect one's PCS, then please apply the same standard to PC's PCS scores will you?

    When PC skated poorly but received high PCS, everyone cries foul. When it happens to Machida, then it's "PCS should not be affected by poor TES".

    I rest my case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    100% agreed. GOE should vary. Instead of doing some comparisons to TEB - look at his elements from the GPF and say which ones supposedly got too much points... (yes, that means you, qwertyskates). If the only thing you say is "his GOE were a lot higher than at TEB", that doesn't mean much. Despite the fact that the execution might have been diffferent, I might aswell say he was undermarked in GOE in TEB (which I don't even want to do now - it's just meant to show you that this comparison doesn't help you much).
    At GPF, there were poorly performed elements in YH's LP, eg his moving and faltering spin, yet PC received 0 and - tve for his step out of final spin while YH received 0 and +tve.

    Huge PCS boost (40+, 42+ to 45+for SP, 76+, 81+ to 92+ for LP) + all these little points in GOEs add up to deliver gold, that's home advantage.

    And then there's Machida's unchanged SP PCS when he dropped from 1st at SA to last at GPF...

    Either PCS is related to TES performance or it isn't, take your pick, you can't have it both ways when it comes to GPF.

    The difference between you and other PC's critics and me is that I acknowledge what's at work here, but you apply one set of standards to PC and another to YH, Machida, etc.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Did you even watch his SP? He botched two jumps and did poorly on the spins. If you insist that poorly performing the elements to score only half of TES in one season and dropping one's place from 1st to last should not affect one's PCS, then please apply the same standard to PC's PCS scores will you?

    I apply the same standard to everyone.
    And I did not see that Machida "did poorly on the spins" or "botched two jumps".


    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    When PC skated poorly but received high PCS, everyone cries foul. When it happens to Machida, then it's "PCS should not be affected by poor TES".

    Who is "everyone"? When PC's mistakes don't affect the program, then his PCS should not be affected either. But the problem with him is that his PCS are too high in general, even if he skates clean. I have already mentioned his ridiculous 9.71 for IN at the GPF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    I apply the same standard to everyone.
    And I did not see that Machida "did poorly on the spins" or "botched two jumps".





    Who is "everyone"? When PC's mistakes don't affect the program, then his PCS should not be affected either. But the problem with him is that his PCS are too high in general, even if he skates clean. I have already mentioned his ridiculous 9.71 for IN at the GPF.
    If you are unable to see with your own eyes then at least look at the score sheet, will you?

    1st place PCS and last place performance PCS remaining the same is ok with you? If you insist PCS should remain constant despite good or poor performance then why do you accept huge boost for YH's PCS and pick on PC's high PCS when he made mistakes?

    I can also insist based on your inconsistently applied standards & criteria that PC deserves his PCS every time and YH's PCS is ridiculous,ie. logic and math be damned.

    As for LP PCS, PC's remained within a range of 5 this season, Machida's a range of 2, YH's a range of 16! SP PC's range is 2, YH's range is 5 !

    PC's PCS range in total is 7 advantage combined, YH's PCS range at GPF is 21 advantage (3 times PC) within a few weeks, enough to deliver gold. So whose PCS is more consistent and realistic given that you insist Machida's PCS should not change whether he botched or delivered 1st for his programs?

    You turn a blind eye (literally cannot see a difference between 1st and last place performance) when it's others' boosted PCS but come down hard on PC's PCS, that's the truth.

    Like I said, I'm consistent, I accept blatant home advantage/judges' favoritism for ALL skaters when they occur, but you guys only come down hard on PC. I'm not even a PC uber, I am a skating uber, a fine skate is a fine skate, and I think YH is not there, certainly not his GPF skate, not even close to the skating history's greats, or PC's TEB performance.

    Sochi is still PC's (and Mao's) to lose.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    If you are unable to see with your own eyes then at least look at the score sheet, will you?

    1st place PCS and last place performance PCS remaining the same is ok with you? If you insist PCS should remain constant despite good or poor performance then why do you accept huge boost for YH's PCS and pick on PC's high PCS when he made mistakes?

    I can also insist based on your inconsistently applied standards & criteria that PC deserves his PCS every time and YH's PCS is ridiculous,ie. logic and math be damned.

    As for LP PCS, PC's remained within a range of 5 this season, Machida's a range of 2, YH's a range of 16! SP PC's range is 2, YH's range is 5 !

    PC's PCS range in total is 7 advantage combined, YH's PCS range at GPF is 21 advantage (3 times PC) within a few weeks, enough to deliver gold. So whose PCS is more consistent and realistic given that you insist Machida's PCS should not change whether he botched or delivered 1st for his programs?

    My point is not to say that PCS should always be constant. I'm simply saying that your "math methods" are not enough to determine if the PCS given out by the judges are wrong or right.

    You said that Machida's PCS should be lower than usual at the GPF because his TES were half of what he got at the other GP's. Well:

    - his PCS WERE lower than at the other Grand Prix's (only slightly but still)
    - low TES should not necessarily correlate with low PCS. It always depends on the actual performace. If a skater jumps only triple lutzes his TES will be very low because he made about 6 invalid elements, but he still could have a great perormace which would deserve high PCS. I argue that a skater potentially the lowest TES of the field and still deserve the highest PCS.

    As for Hanyu and Chan:
    In the SP, I found the judging of the PCS very good. Hanyu was clean and amazing and Chan's multiple mistakes ruined the program a bit, so Hanyu getting higher PCS for PE, CH and IN were absolutey correct IMO. In the LP, it made sense that Chan got higher PCS than Haynu but both skaters were scored too high compared to the other skaters.

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    I wouldn't say -1 point is a lower PCS at all. In that case then you have to agree PC unfairly received lower LP PCS (-1) here compared to TEB.

    It's also not just 1 jump but low & -tve GOE scores for other elements, how can that not make a difference to Machida's SP performance?

    I can apply the same logic of yours to PC's performance, that despite TES mistakes, he deserves his PCS, yet in another post, you said you hope judges will have the courage to mark down his PCS if he makes mistakes.


    At GPF, Hanyu's PCS jumped, +11, while PC's PCS was actually lowered by -1 compared to TEB. So no, if there's overscoring of PCS at GPF, it's YH's. PC skated relatively clean LP at GPF, YH didn't, yet the difference in PCS amounted to +12 points for YH, in a competition where even 0.01 would be a decider.

    When the entire season's PCS is considered, the jumps in marks are even more astronomical than YH's.

    YH is talented, no doubt, but his best thus far is nowhere near PC's or other greats' best. My hopes for OGM is much higher than what I've seen from YH, perhaps he'll be ready for Korea 2018.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    I wouldn't say -1 point is a lower PCS at all. In that case then you have to agree PC unfairly received lower LP PCS (-1) here compared to TEB.

    It's also not just 1 jump but low & -tve GOE scores for other elements, how can that not make a difference to Machida's SP performance?

    Again, there is no rule which says that PCS are dependant on the TES. So Machida got lower GOEs at the GPF than usual...how does that affect his Skating Skills, Transitions or Choreography? Yeah, you guessed: Not at all. It *may* affect his scores for P/E but even that not necessarily the case.


    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    I can apply the same logic of yours to PC's performance, that despite TES mistakes, he deserves his PCS, yet in another post, you said you hope judges will have the courage to mark down his PCS if he makes mistakes.


    At GPF, Hanyu's PCS jumped, +11, while PC's PCS was actually lowered by -1 compared to TEB. So no, if there's overscoring of PCS at GPF, it's YH's. PC skated relatively clean LP at GPF, YH didn't, yet the difference in PCS amounted to +12 points for YH, in a competition where even 0.01 would be a decider.

    When the entire season's PCS is considered, the jumps in marks are even more astronomical than YH's.

    Again: Marks from different competitions cannot be compared like you are doing it. Hanyu skated the best I've ever seen him at the GPF (I haven't seen all of his programs at the other Grand Prix events) so it make sense that his PCS were higher than usual. I said before that he stil got inflated scores for skating at home (so got Chan for reputation) and I'm criticising that.

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    If there's no rule or principle, i.e. poor TES does not affect PCS, then you must agree your opinion of PC's PCS isn't based on any either. What applies to PC by judges is similar to what is applied to Machida here, i.e. even if his TES fell by half, i.e. he performed 50% of his technical elements, he is entirely entitled to his full PCS as if he performed fully for his TES. So remember, PC's next falls or botched jumps, i.e. TES failures, including those at the Olympics, should not affect his PCS awarded by judges! No cries of "foul!" when that happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    Again, there is no rule which says that PCS are dependant on the TES. So Machida got lower GOEs at the GPF than usual...how does that affect his Skating Skills, Transitions or Choreography? Yeah, you guessed: Not at all.
    To use your own statement, how can Hanyu's CH, SS, and TR scores go up a whole point when he performed technically better at the GPF but his programs remained essentially the same from TEB to GPF? It's understandable if PE and IN went up (even if by a lot) but those other PCS scores shouldn't have jumped so high. It's certainly greater than any jump in PCS Chan has ever received.

  14. #119
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Patrick would never do a posing section for 15 seconds because he doesn't take those kinds of breaks... and yes, it's a break... not some purposeful theatrical section full of gravitas as you're trying to make it seem to be.
    That must be why people greatly adore Yagudin, Lambiel, etc. Because those sections of their programs were worthless and didn't create a significant effect that has stuck in peoples' memories. Keep telling yourself that.

  15. #120
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    A skater can be faster and smoother from one competition to the next which will improve SS and possibly TR scores (because the transitions become more CLEAR in what they are when there's more power and smoothness to the skating). Also, if a skater skates with more confidence, it could affect CH as well because it looks more cohesive.

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