Those who have seen YuNa and Patrick live-question
This is sincere-so please no nasties from love is blind ubers. I like both these skaters, and when Pat is clean, and doesn't fall, hes a joy to watch, His edges are beautiful, the seamless turns, changes of direction etc. One can concentrate on the lovely programs when he is upright and he gets better thru the season. However, he should not have won the WC last year. Huge PCS is expected at Sochi. Also YuNa who generally does not splat. She is fast, great ice coverage, has the big 3/3 at beginning. Very consistent jumper. Still, As beautiful and sexy as she is, I do not get the huge 20 point spreads-I was amazed at Vancouver, having not been able to see much skating in that quad. I felt Mao was awesome, despite being hampered by the package Tarasova settled her with. I was not part of the scene, so no favorites going in to Vancouver. I actually liked Joannie's elegance. I can see by protocols how YuNa won, and I would have been satisfied with either her or Mao. It should have been closer I thought, admittedly not good at CoP. To see her resoundingly beat someone who threw 3 triple axels. I guess they were accepted. Not given enough credit I thought.
Everyone who sees Yuna in person in comp. says she really is that good. I guess the speed is amazing, and we hear that about Pat too. This does not translate well online or on TV. I wondered if people have seen years of them on TV and then saw the live comp. where they skated very well, and said "ok, now I get it-it is obvious."
I think Pat is a judges fave as is YuNa each for different reasons. I just do not get the huge PCS. YuNa fell in both programs in Zagreb, was slowish by her standards, and the programs were not special. She is mad beautiful, and a champion, but it must be hard for other skaters to skate when both these skaters score massive PCS even when they fall.
Is there this amazing quality each has that does not translate to TV? I don't want to see crazy scoring in Sochi, and I hope those who skate well who are younger, and newbies get fairly scored, but this never seems to happen-well rarely. In GP events the scoring seems more fair and Osmond and Liza were breakthrough stars. But WC and Oly seems to hold up the past champions. After seeing what YuNa did and what she scored in a senior B, it seems she will be canonized, never mind the 2010 coronation. Tired of FS scoring, I guess. And not a fan of IJS in its current form. I wonder if I'd "get it" if I saw these two in particular live. To be fair, Mao is always overscored in Japan, sadly for Akiko.
Can't say much about Patrick 'coz I've never seen him in competitions(just watched in LA ice show).
Regarding Yuna, I saw her live in 2008 and 2009 at Skate America, and again at the LA ice show in 2010.
One thing I can say for sure about her is that those so called her 'weaknesses' such as poor line(which I've never agreed) or poor position in layback spin or spirals is not that noticeable at all. In fact, her spirals were really impressive with that crazy speed and coverage. She really deserved all the GOEs she got for those elements. I believe I also saw Mirai at one of the competitions, and yes her spirals were pretty, but quite slow with tiny ice coverage which left me unimpressed. And Rachael's catch foot spins were truly ugly... in both directions.
And whoever thinks that she doesn't project very well can't be any more wrong.
And that was already last olympic cycle! I can't imagine what it would be watching her nowadays, when she has more finesse, maturity, better lines etc.
Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program
I watched Yu-na win her first world championship in 2009. Although I was impressed with moments of her Scherezade program and her speed, I honestly wasn't blown away. As on TV, her lack of toe point and her inability at that time to really feel the music in her body, as opposed to enacting choreography, held her back from being "a great."
More recently she has opened up and matured her musicality--in send in the clowns I felt she was really feeling the music herself, and that was lovely to see. Her Olympic performances, as skillful and technically brilliant as they were remained very much performances of good programs, but not of the caliber of feeling and expression and dance quality we see from Sasha Cohen or Dai Takahashi or Stephane Lambiel.
Six Point Zero
If your hope is to see younger newbies get scored in Sochi comparable to what Yuna, Mao, etc. are going to score, have no worry. The Olympics are in Russia and Julia Lipnitskaia and one other young compatriot will contend for a medal. If they are reasonably clean, they will score big, and big enough to potentially quash some of the more serious contenders.
As for scores exploding in Sochi--that's an obvious fact. The trend is upwards and I see judges being encouraged to be very generous during the Olympics. Records will likely go down for many--though Yuna's current record is relatively so high it's not as likely to go down as the other disciplines' all-time highs.
And what's this you say about younger skaters getting held back in the Olympics? What were the ages of Baiul, Lipinski and Hughes again?
We will at least see PCS records getting smashed. The only reason Yuna didn't beat her own LP record at Worlds was because the choreographic sequence was worth less than a Level 4 spiral. In Sochi, she may well beat her own record with natural PCS increase.
Originally Posted by Krislite
I watched to Patrick in 4cc 2012 and I was so impressed, he is not my favorite but he moves so soft across the ice, he is very delicate in his skating.
When it come to skaters like YuNa, I wouldn't say that these qualities do not translate well to the screen, it's just that it's less obvious on a screen compared to a live performance because it's harder to gauge how fast a skater really is compared to the background, or relative to other skaters. At 2013 Worlds, the two female skaters who stood out as having great speed and presence were YuNa Kim and Carolina Kostner. When I saw Carolina Kostner, I finally "got her" and why her PCS was consistently high. Speed combined with confidence (which both of these ladies have) just makes their performance quality that much grander. On the other hand, live skating diminished the quality of some other skaters who looked better on camera than they in person. They looked small or fussy, not particularly majestic regardless of whether they had a good performance or choreography.
Originally Posted by skateluvr
Didn't see them in person before, but I think Mao's Bells of Moscow program at Vancouver was actually very good, I don't know why you Mao ubers didn't like it. She couldn't beat Yuna though for many reasons.
3A+2 = 5.5 < 3Lz+3T = 6.0
Yuna's TES was always going to be much higher than Mao's.
Yuna went clean and Mao didn't.
The Mao ubers seemed to have it stuck in their head that Mao was always destined to be the greatest of her era, because she was #1 vs. Yuna #2 from 2004-2008. Up until 2009, Yuna only beat Mao when Mao made mistakes, and when Mao did her best she always won. The whole notion of Mao being better when she was on and Yuna being not as moving a skater but more technically consistent was imprinted into people's minds for many years.
However, they grew up and into themselves. Mao never really got better. Yuna got astronomically better, and from 2009 onwards she moved into a #1 class all her own.
For some reason, the Mao fans are left clinging to their feelings from 2004-2008. Like Mao herself, they never really evolved into anything beyond that. Magnificent Mao will always be better than reliable but unmoving Yuna in their minds. Like some 50 year old who still wears the same style clothes from their glory days in the 1970s, the Yuna haters cling to their outdated notions. They don't see that Yuna always continued to improve and mature as an artist, and by the time the two arrived at Vancouver and into their 20s, Yuna had left Mao and everyone else far behind.
Yes, in my opinion the large gaps in scores are warranted. If people don't like it, they should hope for the other skaters to improve, rather than trying to bring someone else down.
Ven, how is your post relevant to the topic of this thread? The topic is, are Yuna Kim and Patrick Chan more impressive live than on TV?
Skatluvr, the consummate Yuna hater and Mao lover, said two things that I was commenting on...
1. Mao's FS program at Vancouver was bad (I disagree, I think it was a very good program, skated well except for the mistakes)
2. The whole OP was seeking confirmation bias that Yuna does not deserve to win by the large margins she wins by. I say nonsense, she does deserve to win by that much. She's a better skater. She kept getting better every year, other skaters of her era did not and she passed them by, to such a large measure that her winning totals reflect the difference in abilities.
Actually, skateluvr recently stated that she is tired of both, that they are overrated and overscored, and that Ashley Wagner is a true artist destined to become the next Michelle Kwan. An interesting viewpoint, to say the least.
Originally Posted by Ven
Oh, thank you for this clarification CarneAsada. I look forward to the day that skateluvr runs out of skaters to dislike.
Originally Posted by CarneAsada
Well…we are here to discuss skating, not each other, so I will chime in with a comment on Patrick Chan. (Poor Patrick is being neglected so far on this thread. )
When Patrick burst on the scene five or six years ago he brought something unique to the table. He was the first skater to understand what the new judging system was about. In a sense, the IJS was the ISU's acknowledgment that they went too far when they eliminated figures from figure skating -- that basic blade-to-ice skills were indeed the heart of the sport after all. Then when he added the quad, he really did have a fall advantage on the field.
Now others are catching up. We'll see.
^ I didn't mean to specifically neglect Patrick. I just saw him once, at last year's Skate Canada and it wasn't his best-skated event so while it didn't make me go "Wow!" I know he's skated better than that so it wouldn't have been fair to judge him on that basis.
But really, both his and YuNa's skating make me go on any medium, so...
He falls down all the time. Hard to admire a program when the performance is sloppy. Goes for the women too.
As a casual FS fan, I will say the major problem with IJS right now and the decline in popularity in the sport in the west is that there are not enough deductions for mistakes. The scoring is set up in the exact way that will maximize sloppy performances.
Instead, emphasis should be placed on skaters skating programs that match their technical ability to finish the program with little or no mistakes.
Sadly, that's not the case. Because they aren't punished for mistakes, they have all the incentive to do programs with high base scores regardless of their ability to go clean or not.
That's what brings Chan down (his programs are often sloppy) and makes Yuna that much more admired. She skates the hardest programs and still achieves a very refined finished product.