Those who have seen YuNa and Patrick live-question

minze · Dec 14, 2013

Ven said:
Skateluvr included Mao in this thread by mentioning her several times in the OP. I also never said anything condescending toward Mao, I think she's a fine skater and even mentioned I liked one of her programs. In 2004-2008 she was #1 of her age, Yuna #2. Sometimes in life, things change. From 2009, Yuna passed the entire field and moved to a level without rival, in my opinion she deserves to win by the very large margins of victory she receives.

I also disagree with the assertion that you can't notice speed and ice coverage on tv. At least in my case I feel like I can tell when some skaters are skating much faster than others.

"For some reason, the Mao fans are left clinging to their feelings from 2004-2008. Like Mao herself, they never really evolved into anything beyond that. Magnificent Mao will always be better than reliable but unmoving Yuna in their minds. Like some 50 year old who still wears the same style clothes from their glory days in the 1970s, the Yuna haters cling to their outdated notions. They don't see that Yuna always continued to improve and mature as an artist, and by the time the two arrived at Vancouver and into their 20s, Yuna had left Mao and everyone else far behind".

You don't consider this condescending. You are seriously claiming that Mao never evolved as a skater. You claim you like Mao but this comment prove other wise. By the way, you could have told us how godly you think Yuna Kim is without putting Mao down. So you claim Mao fans put Yuna Kim down, follow your own advice.

By the way in case you forgot after Vancouver, the Mao you claim never evolved won a World Championship. No need to down play her accomplishments to compliment Yuna Kim

skateluvr · Dec 14, 2013

Ven wanted to wreck the thread. It really is not obvious how fast someone is skating, and I don't think the flaws in YuNa's skating-they come across as mentioned earlier merit 20 points over the field. And you seem confused re how much you "admire" Mao.:disapp:

This was about overscoring and how it is not fair to many gifted skaters. And how IJS was supposed to remedy this. Anonymity in judging is a serious flaw. When you turn things personal you can expect it back. Interesting you have nothing to say about YuNa's Zagreb outing which was overscored considering the GP finalists and the medalists. This was not the YuNa who skated last year. She deserved to be WC last year. Zagreb scoring was not earned. This is what the thread is about. reputation scoring and the Olympics. Julia may get home field advantage, but they won't give her rep points. She is technically good but does not have the presence prettykeys spoke of with YuNa and Kostner. They are women, and I think since 2002, they want a woman, not a 15 year old. JMO.

cooper · Dec 14, 2013

skateluvr said:
Ven wanted to wreck the thread. It really is not obvious how fast someone is skating, and I don't think the flaws in YuNa's skating-they come across as mentioned earlier merit 20 points over the field. And you seem confused re how much you "admire" Mao.:disapp:

This was about overscoring and how it is not fair to many gifted skaters. And how IJS was supposed to remedy this. Anonymity in judging is a serious flaw. When you turn things personal you can expect it back. Interesting you have nothing to say about YuNa's Zagreb outing which was overscored considering the GP finalists and the medalists. This was not the YuNa who skated last year. She deserved to be WC last year. Zagreb scoring was not earned. This is what the thread is about. reputation scoring and the Olympics. Julia may get home field advantage, but they won't give her rep points. She is technically good but does not have the presence prettykeys spoke of with YuNa and Kostner. They are women, and I think since 2002, they want a woman, not a 15 year old. JMO.

so, what's the purpose again with this thread? :rolleye:

seriously this whole complaining about over-scoring of yuna as if she's the only one who received is just hypocritical.. EVERYONE had experiences of over-scoring..

and for crying out loud Zagreb is a B tournament.. it happened every year with over-scoring.. get over it!

prettykeys · Dec 14, 2013

Mathman said:
I had the pleasure of seeing my fave MK skate many times times both live and on television. It was about the same, for me. Of course, attending live was a more satisfying experience -- the smell of the grease paint, the roar of the crowd, etc.

I agree.

I think usually a good skater in-person will usually look at least quite good on a screen. The screen does miss out on other aspects of the event, though, for sure. The electricity in the air, the anticipation, the hushed silences, the stillness of your seated neighbours, and the thunderous applause. I'm so glad I got to see one of my favourite skaters at an event she skated wonderfully at.

I do think it's kinda fair for Patrick and YuNa to be at the centre of the debate, though, because they are the frontrunners and when they have won some events they won by huge margins. It may be that the score gap doesn't intuitively gel right with some skating fans' sense of how close the actual competition seemed. (I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with any specific posters' views, but I can understand why these two are being cited.)

However, we have definitely seen overscoring and home-crowd favouritism this season across multiple events; it has been more blatant than in previous IJS years. On account of fairness for all skaters and the ones who may actually skate the best come Sochi, I think it's a relevant topic to discuss.

skateluvr said:
Julia may get home field advantage, but they won't give her rep points. She is technically good but does not have the presence prettykeys spoke of with YuNa and Kostner. They are women, and I think since 2002, they want a woman, not a 15 year old. JMO.

Actually, I can imagine that Julia's frailness, her vulnerable look on the ice may actually work in her favour for the theme she has for her FS. We don't all have to be swept away by a grand, powerful performance. If Julia skates well, she will simply steal our hearts (at least that's my suspicion.)

Ven · Dec 14, 2013

Skateluvr, it causes me deep, deep pain that I upset your feelings. You are always without fail complimenting and fair about Yuna and other skaters, nobody should ever take a negative tone towards you or challenge the premise of your ideas.

Ven · Dec 14, 2013

Minze, I don't think Mao got any better than 2008 compared to Yuna or even others. In 2008 or before, when Mao brought her A game, she'd win every time. Only Yuna beat her when Mao made mistakes. In this way, over the course of many years, Mao developed a reputation for being the skater with the highest ceiling but Yuna being more reliable and steady. From 2009 this changed, Yuna's ability went to another level far beyond Mao or anyone else. In my opinion and in the opinion of many, many other people, Yuna's ceiling actually turned out to be much higher than Mao or anyone else, though that wasn't what a lot of people thought would happen the years before.

But it seems like the opinions of some people did not change from 2009, despite the results changing. That's what I said, it seems like people made their opinions in earlier years and never opened their mind to the possibility that times change. If someone has their own preference for one skater over another then that's fine, anyone can have their favorites. But the results speak for themselves, Yuna has clearly surpassed all the other ladies. Saying she's overscored or doesn't deserve her wins is a far, far cry from someone just saying they prefer one skater over another.

jenaj · Dec 14, 2013

chapis said:
I watched to Patrick in 4cc 2012 and I was so impressed, he is not my favorite but he moves so soft across the ice, he is very delicate in his skating.

I also saw him at 4cc and was impressed. Not a fan 'til then. I'm still no uber but I appreciate his skating very much.

YunaBliss · Dec 14, 2013

skateluvr said:
Is there this amazing quality each has that does not translate to TV?....

I wonder if I'd "get it" if I saw these two in particular live. To be fair, Mao is always overscored in Japan, sadly for Akiko.

There is really one answer to this -- go see them yourself!

Some people will "get it", some will not.

For me, I saw Yuna first time live in 2010 ice show, and I was blown away by her presence. I "got it" so to speak. As for Patrick, I saw him several times again at ATS ice shows, but from a layperson perspective, I couldn't really tell whether he was skating on another level as compared to the likes of Lambiel, Joubert, Lyascek, etc. They all seemed good to me.

cheerio2 · Dec 14, 2013

Ven said:
For some reason, the Mao fans are left clinging to their feelings from 2004-2008. Like Mao herself, they never really evolved into anything beyond that. Magnificent Mao will always be better than reliable but unmoving Yuna in their minds. Like some 50 year old who still wears the same style clothes from their glory days in the 1970s, the Yuna haters cling to their outdated notions. They don't see that Yuna always continued to improve and mature as an artist, and by the time the two arrived at Vancouver and into their 20s, Yuna had left Mao and everyone else far behind.

Wow, it's quite amazing how condescending this comment is! I saw nothing in the original post that merited this kind of response.

You clearly have some sort of delusional belief that Yuna being scored higher than Mao means that you as a Yuna fan are "better" than Mao fans. Reality check: Yuna's success is not your success, and does not reflect on you whatsoever. Yuna could break 500 points at the next Olympics, but you'd still just be someone living vicariously through others, without the maturity to be civil and not personally insult others on a figure skating board. Yuna's success is the result of her own hard work, and you have no standing to use her success to gloat or condescend to other people.

minze · Dec 14, 2013

Ven said:
Minze, I don't think Mao got any better than 2008 compared to Yuna or even others. In 2008 or before, when Mao brought her A game, she'd win every time. Only Yuna beat her when Mao made mistakes. In this way, over the course of many years, Mao developed a reputation for being the skater with the highest ceiling but Yuna being more reliable and steady. From 2009 this changed, Yuna's ability went to another level far beyond Mao or anyone else. In my opinion and in the opinion of many, many other people, Yuna's ceiling actually turned out to be much higher than Mao or anyone else, though that wasn't what a lot of people thought would happen the years before.

But it seems like the opinions of some people did not change from 2009, despite the results changing. That's what I said, it seems like people made their opinions in earlier years and never opened their mind to the possibility that times change. If someone has their own preference for one skater over another then that's fine, anyone can have their favorites. But the results speak for themselves, Yuna has clearly surpassed all the other ladies. Saying she's overscored or doesn't deserve her wins is a far, far cry from someone just saying they prefer one skater over another.

Ok. Your opinion and the opinion of other people. Good, free country people can like who they want. But, for you to attack Mao fans and claim that neither them nor Mao have evolve is condescending IMO. Have your favorites and your opinion but be respectful of other skaters. You think Yuna Kim is far above any skater, say that but Yuna been the best in your opinion does not equal Mao has not evolve.

skateluvr · Dec 14, 2013

I wish I could see them! YuNa may skate twice more-Korean Nationals and Sochi. Fairly sure I won't get there. It is a real issue and the scoring confuses even the best informed people because it is subjective. But I think the anonymity allows it to continue. I can't imagine this being the case in other judged sports...or is it? In gymnastics is the judging anonymous?

Really, I was shocked by the Vancouver results. I guess you had to be there.... :eek:

hwell:

Mathman · Dec 14, 2013

skateluvr said:
This was about overscoring and how it is not fair to many gifted skaters. And how IJS was supposed to remedy this.

Wait. It is? I thought it was about performance qualities that you can see live that are not so apparent when you see them on TV. Hence the question in the title of the thread.

Krislite · Dec 14, 2013

skateluvr said:
[...]

This was about overscoring and how it is not fair to many gifted skaters. And how IJS was supposed to remedy this. Anonymity in judging is a serious flaw. When you turn things personal you can expect it back. Interesting you have nothing to say about YuNa's Zagreb outing which was overscored considering the GP finalists and the medalists. This was not the YuNa who skated last year. She deserved to be WC last year. Zagreb scoring was not earned. This is what the thread is about. reputation scoring and the Olympics. Julia may get home field advantage, but they won't give her rep points. She is technically good but does not have the presence prettykeys spoke of with YuNa and Kostner. They are women, and I think since 2002, they want a woman, not a 15 year old. JMO.

Why bring up Yuna's scores in particular, though, as if she were held up the same way as Chan when that is obviously not the case? Mao has been scoring at the same level as she did in Zagreb this season with hardly a perfect performance as well. Yuna's scores are not particularly any more inflated than either Chan or Mao for that matter. Neither girl can sustain as many mistakes and still score as high Patrick. It's very dubious that you should drag Yuna into the same conversation. She deserves every ounce of gold got at Worlds or Olympics. Chan, on the other hand, is a different matter. The two are hardly comparable, other than being the top dog in their respective discipline.

RABID · Dec 14, 2013

Can I just say..... :popcorn:

CarneAsada · Dec 14, 2013

cooper said:
so, what's the purpose again with this thread? seriously this whole complaining about over-scoring of yuna as if she's the only one who received is just hypocritical.. EVERYONE had experiences of over-scoring..

and for crying out loud Zagreb is a B tournament.. it happened every year with over-scoring.. get over it!

I agree - Yuna clearly deserved to win and it's not like she was the only one getting overscored in that competition. Miki was also getting gifts as a 2-time World Champion whose reputation is on a higher level than Golden Spin. Mao's scores have been fluffed up at every competition this season in accordance with Olympic season inflation. Julia won CoR with crazy inflated scores. At least when Yuna gets overscored, she still deserves to win the competition by a big margin, which is more than we can say for Mao (2012 NHK) or Julia (2013 CoR). Historically, whenever it looks like Yuna might get propped up to a victory she doesn't deserve, she has the graciousness to drop the gold medal onto someone else's waiting neck (like to Miki in 2011).

Ven · Dec 14, 2013

Mathman said:
Wait. It is? I thought it was about performance qualities that you can see live that are not so apparent when you see them on TV. Hence the question in the title of the thread.

You see now why I responded the way I did? I did not just take the title at face value, I knew exactly where skateluvr wanted to steer this conversation.

EricRohmer · Dec 14, 2013

Mathman said:
Well…we are here to discuss skating, not each other, so I will chime in with a comment on Patrick Chan. (Poor Patrick is being neglected so far on this thread. )

When Patrick burst on the scene five or six years ago he brought something unique to the table. He was the first skater to understand what the new judging system was about. In a sense, the IJS was the ISU's acknowledgment that they went too far when they eliminated figures from figure skating -- that basic blade-to-ice skills were indeed the heart of the sport after all. Then when he added the quad, he really did have a fall advantage on the field.

Now others are catching up. We'll see.

Well said.

Ven · Dec 14, 2013

Minze2001 said:
But, for you to attack Mao fans and claim that neither them nor Mao have evolve is condescending IMO.

I think I only said Mao ubers, and by that I mean the people who like Mao best blindly no matter what. I was not speaking about rational people who may have a preference for her over other skaters. Anyone is entitled to like their favorites; however, it doesn't entitle people to say that other skaters (like Yuna) are always overscored or otherwise undeserving of their wins, which is exactly where skateluvr was trying to go with this thread.

minze · Dec 15, 2013

Ven said:
I think I only said Mao ubers, and by that I mean the people who like Mao best blindly no matter what. I was not speaking about rational people who may have a preference for her over other skaters. Anyone is entitled to like their favorites; however, it doesn't entitle people to say that other skaters (like Yuna) are always overscored or otherwise undeserving of their wins.

And the same thing can be said about Yuna Kim ubers, they like Yuna Kim blindly. So you see it goes both ways.

CarneAsada · Dec 15, 2013

Ven said:
It doesn't entitle people to say that other skaters (like Yuna) are always overscored or otherwise undeserving of their wins, which is exactly where skateluvr was trying to go with this thread.

That's a cynical way to think of it. True, half the threads here degenerate into that kind of thing, but maybe it wouldn't have been so fast if you hadn't decided to post about how utterly inferior Mao Asada is in your opinion.

Minze2001 said:
And the same thing can be said about Yuna Kim ubers, they like Yuna Kim blindly. So you see it goes both ways.

Not helping...

Those who have seen YuNa and Patrick live-question

minze

skateluvr

cooper

prettykeys

Ven

Match Penalty

Ven

Match Penalty

jenaj

YunaBliss

cheerio2

minze

skateluvr

Mathman

Krislite

RABID

CarneAsada

Ven

Match Penalty

EricRohmer

Ven

Match Penalty

minze

CarneAsada

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