Those who have seen YuNa and Patrick live-question

Krislite · Dec 15, 2013

Mathman said:
Wait. It is? I thought it was about performance qualities that you can see live that are not so apparent when you see them on TV. Hence the question in the title of the thread.

That was the purported reason. Of course, when you bring together the topics of Chan, Kim and PCS over-scoring, each a lightning a rod in figure skating forums, the results are so obvious you cannot help but doubt the expressed intent.

Ven · Dec 15, 2013

Well, sure, but if you are a Mao fan, you have to recognize that from the results and performances Yuna has passed all the other skaters. You may have a preference for Mao or some other skater, but you can't objectively say they are better than Yuna and she's unfairly scored higher. You see my point?

Ven · Dec 15, 2013

CarneAsada said:
but maybe it wouldn't have been so fast if you hadn't decided to post about how utterly inferior Mao Asada is in your opinion.

From reading the OP and skateluvr's history of always attacking Yuna in a backhand way, I knew exactly where this thread was going. Skateluvr even slipped up and Mathman called them out on it.

CarneAsada · Dec 15, 2013

Krislite said:
That was the purported reason. Of course, when you bring together the topics of Chan, Kim and PCS over-scoring, each a lightning a rod in figure skating forums, the results are so obvious you cannot help but doubt the expressed intent.

How far does that purported reason carry us, anyway? Asking people to explain how Yuna Kim and Patrick Chan are better live? For that, words are useless!

minze · Dec 15, 2013

CarneAsada said:
That's a cynical way to think of it. True, half the threads here degenerate into that kind of thing, but maybe it wouldn't have been so fast if you hadn't decided to post about how utterly inferior Mao Asada is in your opinion.

Not helping...

Yes like you bring it up past "over scores" of Mao did not help either. Sorry if I think that saying Mao and her fans have not evolve and are like people who wear clothes from 1970 is offensive.

minze · Dec 15, 2013

Ven said:
Well, sure, but if you are a Mao fan, you have to recognize that from the results and performances Yuna has passed all the other skaters. You may have a preference for Mao or some other skater, but you can't objectively say they are better than Yuna and she's unfairly scored higher. You see my point?

Because if we don't we are not rational.

skateluvr · Dec 15, 2013

Ven said:
You see now why I responded the way I did? I did not just take the title at face value, I knew exactly where skateluvr wanted to steer this conversation.

There was the title, but I addressed overscoring in the OP, if anything, you Ven jumped in and made it about Mao/Yuna. It is just gonna be a drag -we will have ubers who really think YuNa is an actual Queen, with an old European title. She fell on a double axel, or fell out in her Zagreb Sp, and fell in the long. She did not earn those scores. We are not talking about LAST YEAR.

YOU ARE CLEARLY IN LOVE WITH YUNA. You have no objectivity about her. None. So have fun in legendland. Just don't expect your opinions to be taken as fact, that is all. Done. Others responded with their experience of seeing Pat live. It is the same thing. His PCS makes him win, falls or no falls, his skating is considered superior-exept not at the GPF. So there is hope for fair scoring. Hanyu won, and should have. There is no limit to what you feel YuNa deserves, so no point discussing it with an uber uber.

skateluvr · Dec 15, 2013

Minze2001 said:
Because if we don't we are not rational.

he/she has no objectivity. rabid uber in love with yuNa, living vicariously is my guess. likely has no achievements of his/her own. this ven, is what you wrote about mao fans. None of us have grown in years, like Mao we are all underachievers. that is how you come across. irrational-out of touch with reality-supremely biases-angry at any who you feel unjustly criticize your idol. therapy may help. how do you like it? try behaving.

Ven · Dec 15, 2013

Minze2001 said:
Sorry if I think that saying Mao and her fans have not evolve and are like people who wear clothes from 1970 is offensive.

It's a funny remark but doesn't apply to all Mao fans, OK? I directed that at certain Mao fans only. As recent as this season and last season, I saw posts on GS that Yuna is just a jack-of-all-trades skater, steady and reliable at everything but not exceptional at anything, while "magnificent" Mao really is better but it's unfair that she get called for edges and UR and the like.

My joke was directed at those kind of people, because that is a perception that may have been valid in 2004-2008, but from 2009 did not apply anymore. If someone still prefers Mao, that's their preference, but to think she's better than Yuna, and that Yuna is still just that steady reliable skater from years ago, is an outdated notion that reminded me of 50 year olds who still wear clothes that were stylish when they were 20.

CarneAsada · Dec 15, 2013

Minze2001 said:
Because if we don't we are not rational.

More importantly, these deluded Mao fans whom Ven excoriates basically don't exist. Who on this forum actually says that Mao is objectively a better skater than Yuna (not just one or two aspects, but overall)? There are maybe 2 people who actually post things like that.

minze · Dec 15, 2013

Ven said:
It's a funny remark but doesn't apply to all Mao fans, OK? I directed that at certain Mao fans only. As recent as this season and last season, I saw posts on GS that Yuna is just a jack-of-all-trades skater, steady and reliable at everything but not exceptional at anything, while "magnificent" Mao really is better but it's unfair that she get called for edges and UR and the like.
My joke was directed at those kind of people, because that is a perception that may have been valid in 2004-2008, but from 2009 did not apply anymore. If someone still prefers Mao, that's their preference, but to think she's better than Yuna, and that Yuna is still just that steady reliable skater from years ago, is an outdated notion that reminded me of 50 year olds who still wear clothes that were stylish when they were 20.

Ven, In this forum most people have pretty favorable view of Yuna Kim. Read through any thread and see the things that are said about other skater and especially Mao Asada, she gets no mercy from some posters here. So if a few people here do not think Yuna Kim is the greatest that does not make them haters. Are you serious with the magnificent Mao because she gets criticized here a lot

Ven · Dec 15, 2013

Minze2001 said:
Because if we don't we are not rational.

Based on 6 competitions since 2008, Yuna has received higher scores every single time, often setting world records in the process. These are made by a panel of judges, according to objective TES and subjective PCS. The subjective PCS between Yuna and Mao were usually not very different, and never accounted for the difference in their scores. The difference in scores was always predominantly the result of Yuna's higher technical score, because she skated harder programs cleaner, and both skaters and their teams knew the objective scoring ahead of time.

So yes, after the results of the last 5 years, if you think that Mao is better than Yuna, and they are unfairly scored, and there is a conspiracy to prop up Yuna and keep Mao down, I would call that very irrational.

skateluvr said:
he/she has no objectivity. rabid uber in love with yuNa, living vicariously is my guess. likely has no achievements of his/her own. this ven, is what you wrote about mao fans. None of us have grown in years, like Mao we are all underachievers. that is how you come across. irrational-out of touch with reality-supremely biases-angry at any who you feel unjustly criticize your idol. therapy may help. how do you like it? try behaving.

This seems like a rather rambling, incoherent post, so I'm not sure what to make of it, other than to notice that you failed to answer Mathman's question.

Ven · Dec 15, 2013

Minze, let me just finish by saying this, I don't care to go on and on about this. I made a comment about some Mao fans only. I did not make a comment about all Mao fans. If Mao or some other skater is your favorite, that's good for you, it's a personal preference. My replies were only meant to ridicule the people who think Yuna doesn't deserve her scores.

I even mentioned in my first post that I think Mao is a good skater, and I disagreed with skateluvr, that I liked her Bells of Moscow olympic program. Fair enough?

minze · Dec 15, 2013

Ven said:
Minze, let me just finish by saying this, I don't care to go on and on about this. I made a comment about some Mao fans only. I did not make a comment about all Mao fans. If Mao or some other skater is your favorite, that's good for you, it's a personal preference. My replies were only meant to ridicule the people who think Yuna doesn't deserve her scores.

And let me finish by saying this. Why do you have to ridicule them? Because they don't agree with you that your favorite skater is the greatest? You also said Mao has not evolve the scores prove otherwise does not make you irrational also?

ahy · Dec 15, 2013

Why this forum became a mao and kim war again...

dorispulaski · Dec 15, 2013

ahy said:
Why this forum became a mao and kim war again...

I have no clue.

However, I've got to say that Carolina Kostner was much more impressive live than on TV for me!

Patrick, when last I saw him live (in 2011), was about the same as on TV for me.

I've never been fortunate enough to see either Mao or Yuna live.

MiRé · Dec 15, 2013

Why do people keep bringing how much Yuna is overscored? It's kind of stupid to ask these questions because whether or not she's overscored, she was clearly the winner in the competitions she won gold. I wonder if people on this forum would still question her programs if we still had 6.0 system. Questioning her scores only makes you believe you are whiner, and can't stop complain how your favorite skater didn't win over Kim

BounceAround · Dec 15, 2013

I have seen Patrick live! He was very impressive compared to the other skaters, but it wasn't so much the quality of his skating as the speed that struck me.

I obviously don't mean to suggest that his skating skills are poor. When I'm watching a live event and sitting up high, macro-details like speed and projection take precedence over "finer-points" like extension, quality of glide, nuance, etc. This is purely due to the physical distance between myself and the skater, since the latter group of details matter very much to me when I watch on T.V.

This rough guideline usually tells me if I will enjoy a particular skater's performances more live or on T.V. I was never really a fan of the Zhangs, but they skated in the same show and were very fast. I enjoyed their program at the time, but when I re-watched it online I found it empty and unsatisfying. Similarly, the weaker parts of Shen and Zhao's skating (smoothness of glide, his throw technique) were not as noticeable live.

Although I've never seen Carolina Kostner live, I definitely think I would feel the same way as doris, based on what I said above.

...I will avoid saying commenting on Yuna's skating given the debate that's going on.

dorispulaski · Dec 15, 2013

It is true that if a skater is generating an interesting pattern on the ice, you can enjoy it more live, because it is hardly discernible on TV. Blinding speed is more obvious live.

If you're close to the ice, skaters with really noisy blades are more annoying than they are on TV.

And skaters that are really working to the beat of their music are easier to appreciate live, because so often TV & even worse internet streaming, do not often have the audio & video signals well - sync-ed. Jason Brown was completely awesome live in this way at 2011 Nationals. The 2011 Shibutanis were spot on the beat, too, live.

And if a skater is justing skating through his music, that is also more obvious live. In 2011 at Liberty, Patrick was just skating through his music-but one must remember that not all live programs are equal. In a summer competition, obviously you are not seeing the finished product. Some skaters get into their music early in the season; others become more accustomed to their programs, and skater more to the music as the season goes on.

Skater Boy · Dec 15, 2013

CarneAsada said:
Actually, skateluvr recently stated that she is tired of both, that they are overrated and overscored, and that Ashley Wagner is a true artist destined to become the next Michelle Kwan. An interesting viewpoint, to say the least.

I don't see Ashley Kwan as a Michelle Kwan; more of a Kimmie Meissner, maybe a Jill Trenary or even a Tonya Harding or a world medal Rachel Flatt type. She is not overly "special".

Those who have seen YuNa and Patrick live-question

Krislite

Ven

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Ven

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CarneAsada

minze

minze

skateluvr

skateluvr

Ven

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CarneAsada

minze

Ven

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Ven

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minze

ahy

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

MiRé

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BounceAround

dorispulaski

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