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Thread: Ice Dance in the 1990's and other Vintage programs

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    Certainly K&P and A&P. I do know she choreographed for other skaters at the time. Maybe even the Ds; their 7th Symphony piece looked like her style. I don't recall any others - does Doris know?
    You're right she did it. Also Handra Sinek 2002 FD.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euDfP2eGGSg

    There must be a lot more I can't remember right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha'sSpins View Post
    I could never feel the 'sexy' blues number from the Duchesnays because well they are brother and sister so for me at that time there was sort of an icky/squirmy factor whenever they went that way.
    I remember someone (maybe a TV commentator, maybe a fan) commenting about that program that it was refreshing to see a blues program that was about the blues rather than about sex. Does it work to look at that program as two underdressed people, possibly siblings, oppressed by heat and heavy life issues?

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    Ice Dance in the 1990's and other Vintage programs

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    Doris, I checked my own posts which don't go back long enough for me to find that thread. I remember it was called Vintage something either in the title or in the original post. Platov did a great job coaching the Kerrs. You can see he's a level-headed man, and I have no idea how much tolerance he had to muster to deal with the "Pasha" madness. I would have kicked her ***. Remember the channeling of Marilyn Monroe? On second thought, if I had a shot at winning OGM, I might put up with her too.



    Masterpiece. It was considered "easier" even then, let alone compared to the addiction to complexity of today's requirements. Every movement was meaningful and the emotional connection to themselves and the audience was incredible.



    Potent is a great word to describe the Duchesnays. While they didn't have the technical refinement of K&P, I just don't get a lot of the bashing I read about the Duschenays years ago. They weren't that bad. Missing is an amazing piece of art. I can go on and on about how brilliant the 90s ice dancing programs were. Sometimes I wonder if the Duchesnays were independently brilliant or not - was it just because of Dean's influence that they got to where they were? In any case, they also had some dramatic programs during the pro-circuit. I doubt they were still working with Dean in 1994 after the divorce, so it could be their own work. No matter what, it is their interpretation of Missing that was exceptional. They had a certain grittiness to them. Torvill and Dean also performed Missing, but I prefer the Ds' version much more.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4zXCnxE7W8

    The 7th Symphony was a beauty. A maturation of their style. Unfortunately, Paul had a career-ending groin injury, and we didn't get to see evolve and grow.




    I think the Libertango was their best program. They weren't the most refined skaters, but their speed got everyone's adrenaline shot up.

    I loved the Ds' Tango in 1988. I think they were the ones to bring the "real" tango's grittiness to the ice. Prior to that, it seemed that all the "tango" programs were cute "Jalousie" unintentional parodies of the tango.



    Really? Krylova certainly didn't feel like Grischuk was losing her dominance. They won basically every competition, big or small, from '94 to '98. No skaters could win two OGM, even the most ingenious ice dancers couldn't do it. It remains to be seen whether Virtue and Moir can pull it off, but it is a rarity since there are so many spectacular, talented rivals in any period of ice dancing history. G&P lucked out since their rivals were not only much weaker but also artistically less interesting. IMO K&O definitely deserved to beat them a few times, but back then, this sort of thing rarely happened except in the early 90s with K&P, U&Z, and Ds. Seniority won then. K&O weren't technically far off from G&P either. Sad that K&O's career wasn't as long. They would have killed in 2002 with the lame programs (except Flamenco) A&P et al did.



    Many ice dancers moved that move or a variation of it. Usova and Zhulin did it. I'm not sure it's supposed to be dying.

    I loved the dying on ice move that's done well i.e. Bolero. Bobrova and Soloviev's Four Seasons is an unintentional parody of it.
    Yes, but remember it was all set up for them to win. That is how ice dancing was back then. Bloc voting, etc. No one else would have a chance, not even the next Russian team. Perhaps G/P deserved to win the gold medal at the 1998 Olympics -- but 22 straight wins?

    Ice dancing competition results back then were pre-determined. The "chosen ones" would win each dance of the competition.

    Everyone knew that. It took "Skategate" at the 2002 Olympics to finally change all that. Otherwise we would never have seen the rise of Belbin/Agosto, Virtue/Moir, and Davis/White -- no matter how brilliant they were.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 12-19-2013 at 02:38 AM.

  4. #19
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    Ice Dance in the 1990's and other Vintage programs

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    Doris, I checked my own posts which don't go back long enough for me to find that thread. I remember it was called Vintage something either in the title or in the original post. Platov did a great job coaching the Kerrs. You can see he's a level-headed man, and I have no idea how much tolerance he had to muster to deal with the "Pasha" madness. I would have kicked her ***. Remember the channeling of Marilyn Monroe? On second thought, if I had a shot at winning OGM, I might put up with her too.



    Masterpiece. It was considered "easier" even then, let alone compared to the addiction to complexity of today's requirements. Every movement was meaningful and the emotional connection to themselves and the audience was incredible.



    Potent is a great word to describe the Duchesnays. While they didn't have the technical refinement of K&P, I just don't get a lot of the bashing I read about the Duschenays years ago. They weren't that bad. Missing is an amazing piece of art. I can go on and on about how brilliant the 90s ice dancing programs were. Sometimes I wonder if the Duchesnays were independently brilliant or not - was it just because of Dean's influence that they got to where they were? In any case, they also had some dramatic programs during the pro-circuit. I doubt they were still working with Dean in 1994 after the divorce, so it could be their own work. No matter what, it is their interpretation of Missing that was exceptional. They had a certain grittiness to them. Torvill and Dean also performed Missing, but I prefer the Ds' version much more.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4zXCnxE7W8

    The 7th Symphony was a beauty. A maturation of their style. Unfortunately, Paul had a career-ending groin injury, and we didn't get to see evolve and grow.




    I think the Libertango was their best program. They weren't the most refined skaters, but their speed got everyone's adrenaline shot up.

    I loved the Ds' Tango in 1988. I think they were the ones to bring the "real" tango's grittiness to the ice. Prior to that, it seemed that all the "tango" programs were cute "Jalousie" unintentional parodies of the tango.



    Really? Krylova certainly didn't feel like Grischuk was losing her dominance. They won basically every competition, big or small, from '94 to '98. No skaters could win two OGM, even the most ingenious ice dancers couldn't do it. It remains to be seen whether Virtue and Moir can pull it off, but it is a rarity since there are so many spectacular, talented rivals in any period of ice dancing history. G&P lucked out since their rivals were not only much weaker but also artistically less interesting. IMO K&O definitely deserved to beat them a few times, but back then, this sort of thing rarely happened except in the early 90s with K&P, U&Z, and Ds. Seniority won then. K&O weren't technically far off from G&P either. Sad that K&O's career wasn't as long. They would have killed in 2002 with the lame programs (except Flamenco) A&P et al did.



    Many ice dancers moved that move or a variation of it. Usova and Zhulin did it. I'm not sure it's supposed to be dying.

    I loved the dying on ice move that's done well i.e. Bolero. Bobrova and Soloviev's Four Seasons is an unintentional parody of it.
    Yes, but remember it was all set up for them to win. That is how ice dancing was back then. Bloc voting, etc. No one else would have a chance, not even the next Russian team. Perhaps G/P deserved to win the gold medal at the 1998 Olympics -- but 22 straight wins?

    Ice dancing competition results back then were pre-determined. The "chosen ones" would win each dance of the competition.

    Everyone knew that. It took "Skategate" at the 2002 Olympics to finally change all that. Otherwise we would never have seen the rise of Belbin/Agosto, Virtue/Moir, and Davis/White -- no matter how brilliant they were.

  5. #20
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    Ice Dance in the 1990's and other Vintage programs

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    Doris, I checked my own posts which don't go back long enough for me to find that thread. I remember it was called Vintage something either in the title or in the original post. Platov did a great job coaching the Kerrs. You can see he's a level-headed man, and I have no idea how much tolerance he had to muster to deal with the "Pasha" madness. I would have kicked her ***. Remember the channeling of Marilyn Monroe? On second thought, if I had a shot at winning OGM, I might put up with her too.



    Masterpiece. It was considered "easier" even then, let alone compared to the addiction to complexity of today's requirements. Every movement was meaningful and the emotional connection to themselves and the audience was incredible.



    Potent is a great word to describe the Duchesnays. While they didn't have the technical refinement of K&P, I just don't get a lot of the bashing I read about the Duschenays years ago. They weren't that bad. Missing is an amazing piece of art. I can go on and on about how brilliant the 90s ice dancing programs were. Sometimes I wonder if the Duchesnays were independently brilliant or not - was it just because of Dean's influence that they got to where they were? In any case, they also had some dramatic programs during the pro-circuit. I doubt they were still working with Dean in 1994 after the divorce, so it could be their own work. No matter what, it is their interpretation of Missing that was exceptional. They had a certain grittiness to them. Torvill and Dean also performed Missing, but I prefer the Ds' version much more.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4zXCnxE7W8

    The 7th Symphony was a beauty. A maturation of their style. Unfortunately, Paul had a career-ending groin injury, and we didn't get to see evolve and grow.




    I think the Libertango was their best program. They weren't the most refined skaters, but their speed got everyone's adrenaline shot up.

    I loved the Ds' Tango in 1988. I think they were the ones to bring the "real" tango's grittiness to the ice. Prior to that, it seemed that all the "tango" programs were cute "Jalousie" unintentional parodies of the tango.



    Really? Krylova certainly didn't feel like Grischuk was losing her dominance. They won basically every competition, big or small, from '94 to '98. No skaters could win two OGM, even the most ingenious ice dancers couldn't do it. It remains to be seen whether Virtue and Moir can pull it off, but it is a rarity since there are so many spectacular, talented rivals in any period of ice dancing history. G&P lucked out since their rivals were not only much weaker but also artistically less interesting. IMO K&O definitely deserved to beat them a few times, but back then, this sort of thing rarely happened except in the early 90s with K&P, U&Z, and Ds. Seniority won then. K&O weren't technically far off from G&P either. Sad that K&O's career wasn't as long. They would have killed in 2002 with the lame programs (except Flamenco) A&P et al did.



    Many ice dancers moved that move or a variation of it. Usova and Zhulin did it. I'm not sure it's supposed to be dying.

    I loved the dying on ice move that's done well i.e. Bolero. Bobrova and Soloviev's Four Seasons is an unintentional parody of it.
    Yes, but remember it was all set up for them to win. That is how ice dancing was back then. Bloc voting, etc. No one else would have a chance, not even the next Russian team. Perhaps G/P deserved to win the gold medal at the 1998 Olympics -- but 22 straight wins?

    Ice dancing competition results back then were pre-determined. The "chosen ones" would win each dance of the competition.

    Everyone knew that. It took "Skategate" at the 2002 Olympics to finally change all that. Otherwise we would never have seen the rise of Belbin/Agosto, Virtue/Moir, and Davis/White -- no matter how brilliant they were.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I know that Rushpaul choreographed Klimova and Ponomarenko's Bach FD, as well as A&P's R&J. What else did she do?
    Quote Originally Posted by machin View Post
    You're right she did it. Also Handra Sinek 2002 FD.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euDfP2eGGSg

    There must be a lot more I can't remember right now.
    Yes, I loved that program for Handra & Sinek - but I can't remember any more either.

    I think she did quite a lot of programs for A&P though.

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    Welcome to Golden Skate, Zamboni! Post long & often!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I remember someone (maybe a TV commentator, maybe a fan) commenting about that program that it was refreshing to see a blues program that was about the blues rather than about sex. Does it work to look at that program as two underdressed people, possibly siblings, oppressed by heat and heavy life issues?
    Interesting point. Today we are more used to couples having brother-sister vibes who can't muster the requisite romantic chemistry, i.e. D&W, Belbin & Agosto, Shibs, etc. Personally, I don't care for sappy romantic vibes, so it's not a problem for me. It used to be that ice dancers and pairs skaters were married or at least romantically involved, so during the Duchesnay's era, people were off-put by brother-sister vibes. Perhaps, in today's more open society with social media and traveling around the world gives skaters more opportunities to meet potential romantic partners. Certainly, Missing wasn't a dance between lovers. It could easily be about two siblings mourning over the loss of their loved ones during a dictatorship. Maybe it's true that familiarity breeds contempt or at least a lack of attraction, since D&W et al grew up together and don't find each other that hot.

    Regarding Zamboni's comment - yes, Skategate cleaned up ice dance for the better. I'm not fond of the crazy COP system but at least I enjoy seeing different couples winning, for them to feel the need emulate others, and the fact that good programs do get rewarded mostly. The current system promotes the aim for excellence much more than the previous one, though it's flawed. In the past, it was moot point in trying hard. It was a matter of waiting for your seniors to retire and all about waiting in the wings.

  9. #24
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    Thank you so much!

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    I'm not terribly thrilled about the COP system either, especially for singles skaters, but it really has worked for Ice Dance. I'm glad the brilliance of certain North American teams has been recognized. I always felt so sorry for Punsalan and Swallow, for instance. I thought some of their programs were quite innovative. I especially remember their "Cars" program. But they were never allowed to really move up in the rankings.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I remember someone (maybe a TV commentator, maybe a fan) commenting about that program that it was refreshing to see a blues program that was about the blues rather than about sex. Does it work to look at that program as two underdressed people, possibly siblings, oppressed by heat and heavy life issues?
    Okay, you're making me squirm again almost 20 years on! I think from a more mature perspective I could probably go back and watch that program without feeling icky like the first time around.

    One of my all-time favorite programs from the Duchesnays was an exhibition program to a Beethoven piece (it was dramatic but I don't remember the name, one of his symphonies I believe but not the 5th, I'm not too familiar with classical/romance music). I remember they got a HUGE ovation at the end and it was well-deserved. I seem to recall they were both dressed in deep blue costumes too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zamboni View Post
    I'm not terribly thrilled about the COP system either, especially for singles skaters, but it really has worked for Ice Dance. I'm glad the brilliance of certain North American teams has been recognized. I always felt so sorry for Punsalan and Swallow, for instance. I thought some of their programs were quite innovative. I especially remember their "Cars" program. But they were never allowed to really move up in the rankings.
    And their Tango '98. It was my favorite program that year hands down. Brilliant. Loved how Uncle Dick praised them to the skies as they deserved. They deserved to be on the podium actually but was actually 7th. Ridiculous.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USD1m0zfXDY

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    One of my all-time favorite programs from the Duchesnays was an exhibition program to a Beethoven piece (it was dramatic but I don't remember the name, one of his symphonies I believe but not the 5th, I'm not too familiar with classical/romance music). I remember they got a HUGE ovation at the end and it was well-deserved. I seem to recall they were both dressed in deep blue costumes too.
    7th Symphony. This was mentioned earlier in this thread. Another brilliant program. No other team has that kind of intensity.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    7th Symphony. This was mentioned earlier in this thread. Another brilliant program. No other team has that kind of intensity.
    Thank you BlackPack!! I've been trying to find this out for oh only a decade or two!! I need to study up more on classical music.

    I'm listening to Beethoven's complete 7th Symphony now -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MqrBauptrE

    The intense, dramatic movement that I remember starts at approximately 14:44.

    Goodness how memories are flooding back! Here are the Duchesnays and that great Beethoven's 7th program: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4zXCnxE7W8

    I feel so fortunate that I got to see this live!! And how I wish they had skated a competitive version of this number at the '92 Olympics instead of "West Side Story" (which I liked - but didn't love).

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    Happy to help

    I would like to have seen them evolve in the direction of the 7th Symphony. Missing was a program of youthful angst after all, while 7th Symphony represented their maturation and sobriety which I would like to see them develop. Unfortunately, they retired early for good.

    West Side Story was a filler program. Had the content to win a medal but it fulfilled none of the expectations fans had for them. It certainly didn't express their potential.

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