Michelle Kwan's 2001-2002 Season- Can you fill me in?

pangtongfan · Dec 19, 2013

Blades of Passion said:
I wouldn't say Michelle's performance was as tight as Irina's. As soon as she landed the 3Lutz+2Loop, she settled down into the program and was doing very nicely. After the fall she continued to attack the program. Irina skated nervous throughout the whole thing, with inferior choreography and interpretation.

She was also SLOW, I dont think I have ever seen her skate slow, and given that she needs speed, energy, and personality to make her presentation even adequate, she should have probably had a horrible 2nd mark for her performance that night (a couple judges did giving a 5.6, but not most).

David21 · Dec 19, 2013

pangtongfan said:
She was also SLOW, I dont think I have ever seen her skate slow, and given that she needs speed, energy, and personality to make her presentation even adequate, she should have probably had a horrible 2nd mark for her performance that night (a couple judges did giving a 5.6, but not most).

Yeah, the biased German and Italian judges.
Speed was considered mostly in the 1st mark, not the 2nd mark. And her choreography even without her "speed" was more than adequate.

karlowens2 · Dec 19, 2013

aftertherain said:
As for the Michelle-Frank split, I think Michelle is the only person who truly knows why it happened--during TSL's interview with Frank Carroll, Carroll claimed to not understand why either, so I'll leave it at that. If Frank doesn't know, I highly doubt think any poster on this board has a clear and definite answer as to why.

Regarding the 2001-2002 season as a whole, I kind of liked the "Miraculous Mandarin" program she debuted at the 2001 GPF (and to my knowledge, this is the only time we've ever seen this program)--it wasn't a perfect debut; not by a long shot, but I still liked it.

No commentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWarys9kuzM
With (critical) commentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKvcx7w8lEI

It was definitely different to what she skated to prior to this program. It's a shame she didn't stick with it--and it irked me that Peter Carruthers(?) said she need to go "more mainstream to make it more familiar with people."

I liked the Mandarin program also. Very sophisticated for skating - not your usual Carmen/Rach2/etc. I think it would have made more of an impression. About that night. Even Hughes said she had never skated like that before. She was juvenile looking but so far ahead jumping-wise. I think it was impossible to deny her.

Blades of Passion · Dec 19, 2013

David21 said:
Yeah, the biased German and Italian judges.

If they were biased then what term could we use to describe the Russian + affiliate judges? Brainwashed?

pangtongfan · Dec 19, 2013

David21 said:
Yeah, the biased German and Italian judges.
Speed was considered mostly in the 1st mark, not the 2nd mark. And her choreography even without her "speed" was more than adequate.

Whether this is true or not (and it is skating skills that was assigned to the PCS so called 2nd mark so this would seem to be incorrect) speed was neccessary for her to turn in an artistically adequate performance, as obviously she has no elegance, grace, nice positions, sense of style, or decent lines to speak of, so it was energy, effervescence, command, and speed and power that she used to sell her performances and give it some value outside the technical aspects. None of those usual traits were there in her performance that night though, so it was just a technically way below her best performance (only 4 clean triples, the least of the top 5) that was slow (for a usually very fast skater) and with generally ugly and hesistant skating.

The only reason I was somewhat ok with Irina beating Michelle in the LP was that Michelle had a fall and she didnt, and that Michelle didnt really deserve to win with her performance that night anyway (nor did Irina, nor did Sarah with her short program, but it was the lesser of 3 evils). I honestly think if Irina had won the short program as she probably should have, Michelle would have been placed 2nd in the LP after Irina's slow and very sluggish performance, just to give Sarah the gold for by far the stongest performant that night again. Michelle controversially winning the short probably cost her a medal spot, and Irina losing it probably gained her one.

David21 · Dec 19, 2013

pangtongfan said:
Whether this is true or not (and it is skating skills that was assigned to the PCS so called 2nd mark so this would seem to be incorrect) speed was neccessary for her to turn in an artistically adequate performance, as obviously she has no elegance, grace, nice positions, sense of style, or decent lines to speak of, so it was energy, effervescence, command, and speed and power that she used to sell her performances and give it some value outside the technical aspects.

Obviously Slutskaya didn't skate with the same grace and elegance of Kwan, but when looking at her spin or jump landing positions, one could notice that her extensions and lines were more than adequate.

pangtongfan said:
None of those usual traits were there in her performance that night though, so it was just a technically way below her best performance (only 4 clean triples, the least of the top 5) that was slow (for a usually very fast skater) and with generally ugly and hesistant skating.

No, she landed six triples one foot, arguably more than any other skater of the Top 5. Suguri, Cohen and Kwan had 5 clean triples and Hughes as usual underrotated some of hers BADLY.

cjsk8fan · Dec 19, 2013

Actually I thought that was the cleanest program Sarah ever skated. I wasn't a fan, but she did skate her best.

drivingmissdaisy · Dec 19, 2013

pangtongfan said:
I honestly think if Irina had won the short program as she probably should have, Michelle would have been placed 2nd in the LP after Irina's slow and very sluggish performance, just to give Sarah the gold for by far the stongest performant that night again. Michelle controversially winning the short probably cost her a medal spot, and Irina losing it probably gained her one.

I don't think the judges are that calculated, as they have to make these decisions rather quickly. It would have been very controversial if Michelle placed ahead of Irina with a fall, because the whole pairs controversy was about who made more errors regardless of the quality of the programs.

TCAngel18 · Dec 19, 2013

aftertherain said:
As for the Michelle-Frank split, I think Michelle is the only person who truly knows why it happened--during TSL's interview with Frank Carroll, Carroll claimed to not understand why either, so I'll leave it at that. If Frank doesn't know, I highly doubt think any poster on this board has a clear and definite answer as to why.

Regarding the 2001-2002 season as a whole, I kind of liked the "Miraculous Mandarin" program she debuted at the 2001 GPF (and to my knowledge, this is the only time we've ever seen this program)--it wasn't a perfect debut; not by a long shot, but I still liked it.

No commentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWarys9kuzM
With (critical) commentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKvcx7w8lEI

It was definitely different to what she skated to prior to this program. It's a shame she didn't stick with it--and it irked me that Peter Carruthers(?) said she need to go "more mainstream to make it more familiar with people."

Yes! I do hate to beat a dead horse, but with more traction, Miraculous Mandarin is powerful enough for gold

Blades of Passion · Dec 19, 2013

drivingmissdaisy said:
I don't think the judges are that calculated, as they have to make these decisions rather quickly.

It's not very difficult to figure out? Commentators even noted it took the judges a long time for their scores after Slutskaya skated.

Hughes deserved the win and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Finnish and American judges scored Slutskaya over Kwan in order to give Hughes the Gold.

drivingmissdaisy · Dec 19, 2013

Blades of Passion said:
It's not very difficult to figure out? Commentators even noted it took the judges a long time for their scores after Slutskaya skated.

Hughes deserved the win and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Finnish and American judges scored Slutskaya over Kwan in order to give Hughes the Gold.

Doing that would really be inexcusable. It is the judge's job to rank the skaters based on the performance and not the desired outcome. To suggest that an American judge would knock Kwan off the top of the podium to make room for Sarah if he/she thought Kwan was better than Irina is IMO laughable.

Tonichelle · Dec 19, 2013

considering the kerfluffle of the pairs and dance events the judges/ISU had to make sure a clean skater took home the prize otherwise the media would've made such a stink that figure skating would've been out of future games.

drivingmissdaisy · Dec 20, 2013

Tonichelle said:
considering the kerfluffle of the pairs and dance events the judges/ISU had to make sure a clean skater took home the prize otherwise the media would've made such a stink that figure skating would've been out of future games.

Not necessarily, we often saw a good long program that didn't win because the skater was outside the top 3. I can't see an American judge being "in on it" to put Sarah ahead of Michelle. The marks were close and I think any objective observer thought it could have gone either way.

pangtongfan · Dec 20, 2013

David21 said:
Obviously Slutskaya didn't skate with the same grace and elegance of Kwan, but when looking at her spin or jump landing positions, one could notice that her extensions and lines were more than adequate.

Only when it comes to the technical aspects of skating (the elements) and her Biellmann position which she does repeatedly is terrible btw. Look at a close up of Denise in the middle of the spin and Slutskaya in the middle and they dont even look like they are doing the same spin at all.

No, she landed six triples one foot, arguably more than any other skater of the Top 5. Suguri, Cohen and Kwan had 5 clean triples and Hughes as usual underrotated some of hers BADLY.

In no way should her triple flip count as a clean jump. I thought her 2nd triple lutz was clearly two footed and so did Scott Hamilton in the NBC booth and Paul Martini in the CBC. So either 4 or 5 clean triples. I thought Cohen had 6 clean triples actually so I might have to rewatch her performance. Under 6.0 thinking Hughes definitely had 7 clean triples, including 2 super difficult triple-triple combinations. Amazing that Irina still actually beat her on technical marks that night, and narrowly lost only due to the presentation mark of some judges. I can only imagine the controversy had Irina won gold by virtue of directly winning the LP with that skate.

I am not sure if anyone is aware of this but had the Finland judge gave Irina 5.8, 5.8 rather than 5.8, 5.7 she would have won. This judge gave Sarah 5.7, 5.8 so only had Sarah ahead on the 2nd mark tiebreaker rule. Although I do agree with Blades that there is a very good shot both the American and Finnish judges only even placed Irina 2nd over Michelle due to wanting to make sure Hughes won, in which case the Finnish judge wouldnt have even been thinking of giving Irina the gold medal winning mark despite it appearing that way.

The German judge had to give Irina a 5.6 for presentation to prevent her from having the winning 5th vote too. Had this judge given 5.7, 5.8 rather than 5.7, 5.6 (had already given Hughes 5.7, 5.7 and Kwan 5.6, 5.7) Irina also would have won, although it appers David21 would actually be fine with that!?!

FlattFan · Dec 20, 2013

Actually, I wouldn't mind if Fumie Suguri had won. She was closest to clean in both SP and LP. And her LP is gorgeous.

tommyk75 · Dec 20, 2013

Yeah, '02 was a very weird Olympics, but I think the podium was the way it should've been (love Michelle but she fell and Irina didn't). But I still think Michelle was the rightful winner of the Worlds later that season. Both Michelle and Irina skated cleanly but a bit conservatively (no triple-triple combo), but Michelle's basic skating skills were just so much more polished, IMO.

Mathman · Dec 20, 2013

pangtongfan said:
I am not sure if anyone is aware of this but had the Finland judge gave Irina 5.8, 5.8 rather than 5.8, 5.7 she would have won. This judge gave Sarah 5.7, 5.8 so only had Sarah ahead on the 2nd mark tiebreaker rule. Although I do agree with Blades that there is a very good shot both the American and Finnish judges only even placed Irina 2nd over Michelle due to wanting to make sure Hughes won, in which case the Finnish judge wouldnt have even been thinking of giving Irina the gold medal winning mark despite it appearing that way.

The German judge had to give Irina a 5.6 for presentation to prevent her from having the winning 5th vote too. Had this judge given 5.7, 5.8 rather than 5.7, 5.6 (had already given Hughes 5.7, 5.7 and Kwan 5.6, 5.7) Irina also would have won, although it appers David21 would actually be fine with that!?!

Well, that was how the 6.0 system was designed. Each judge decided who he thought deserved to finish first, second, etc., and then juggled the marks to make it come out that way.

drivingmissdaisy · Dec 20, 2013

tommyk75 said:
Yeah, '02 was a very weird Olympics, but I think the podium was the way it should've been (love Michelle but she fell and Irina didn't). But I still think Michelle was the rightful winner of the Worlds later that season. Both Michelle and Irina skated cleanly but a bit conservatively (no triple-triple combo), but Michelle's basic skating skills were just so much more polished, IMO.

The problem for Michelle was that she needed another person to beat Irina because she was too far behind after the SP. Even if Michelle won the LP she would have come in 2nd.

concorde · Dec 20, 2013

Personally I don't think the Michelle Kwan Olympic story is really complete if you don't mention 1994. That would have been the first time she qualified for Nationals as a Senior. The commentators kept mentioning how young she was and how her coaches did not think she was ready to compete at the Senior level but Michelle had gone behind their backs and taken the Senior Test anyway.

1994 was the year of the Nancy Kerrigan/Tonya Harding incident. Tonya "won" and Michelle got second. A second place finish at Nationals normally would have earned Michelle a spot on the Olympic team; however, USFS decided that Nancy and Tonya should represent the US so Michelle became the alternate. At the time I felt bad for Michelle - the way she handled it earned my respect for her early on. Over the years, my respect for her continued to grow.

David21 · Dec 20, 2013

pangtongfan said:
In no way should her triple flip count as a clean jump. I thought her 2nd triple lutz was clearly two footed and so did Scott Hamilton in the NBC booth and Paul Martini in the CBC. So either 4 or 5 clean triples. I thought Cohen had 6 clean triples actually so I might have to rewatch her performance. Under 6.0 thinking Hughes definitely had 7 clean triples, including 2 super difficult triple-triple combinations.

So you think that Irina's flip shouldn't count as a clean jump while you give Hughes a free pass for her ugly, small, underrotated jumps? That first "super difficult" 3-3 combo was in fact a 2.75-2.5 combination and in no way should have recievd full credit, 6.0 system or not. Her only lutz was also clearly underrotated.

And Irina's 2nd triple lutz wasn't two footed I'm quite sure of that.

And for the record, yes I'm applauding the judges who placed Slutskaya ahead of Hughes in the free. Hughes never should have been in the position to beat Sluskaya after the SP anyway.

ETA: Cohen slightly two-footed her 2nd lutz (or flip, can't remember) but that was only visible in the super slo-mo but that would make it also 5 clean triples from her.

Michelle Kwan's 2001-2002 Season- Can you fill me in?

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

David21

karlowens2

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

David21

cjsk8fan

drivingmissdaisy

TCAngel18

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

drivingmissdaisy

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

drivingmissdaisy

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

FlattFan

Match Penalty

tommyk75

Mathman

drivingmissdaisy

concorde

David21

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