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Thread: Michelle Kwan's 2001-2002 Season- Can you fill me in?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by wordsworthgirl View Post
    Yes, I liked the Scheherazade program quite a bit, more than I'd remembered.

    But wow- I just watched Irina's long and saw her marks, and there is no way she deserved such high marks!!! Scott and Sandra were clearly stunned. Her performance was not a good one for her- no triple triples, a botched triple flip, and only 5 triples total, same as Michelle. She absolutely should NOT have been scored above Michelle, and if she had been fairly scored, Michelle would have been 2nd in the long and 1st overall, right? What a travesty!
    Unfortunately it isnt that simple. There are many different perspectives. Most people at the time believe Michelle should not have been 1st in the SP over Irina in the first place, so in that case she wouldnt have won with a 2nd place in the LP anyway. Many others though felt Hughes should have been much lower than 4th in the SP and never been in contention for the gold. There are some who think Sasha should have beaten one or both of Michelle and/or Irina in the LP too, and had Sarah been dumped way down in the SP properly, maybe she would have won the gold in that csae. The arguments could go on forever. There was no clearly deserving winner of the ladies event that year, just a clear deserving winner of the LP phase (under 6.0 thinking, under COP thinking she would be nowhere even with the splatfest that night) in Sarah Hughes.

    I think Irina was placed over Michelle for the simple reason Michelle fell and she didnt. Although you are right Irina gave a very subpar performance, and probably even further from her best than Michelle overall. Which is one reason I disagreed with the people who believe the judges were planning to give Michelle the gold had both skated cleanly there. I almost think the controversial short program result in Michelle's favor was as a way to apease the American public when the planned final result came in.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by wordsworthgirl View Post
    But wow- I just watched Irina's long and saw her marks, and there is no way she deserved such high marks!!! Scott and Sandra were clearly stunned. Her performance was not a good one for her- no triple triples, a botched triple flip, and only 5 triples total, same as Michelle. She absolutely should NOT have been scored above Michelle, and if she had been fairly scored, Michelle would have been 2nd in the long and 1st overall, right? What a travesty!
    The two ladies behind Irina fell and also did not complete a 3/3 successfully. Michelle's performance was as tight as Irina's also. At that point in their careers Michelle was only beating Irina when Michelle was cleaner, and she was not in SLC.

  3. #18
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    I wouldn't say Michelle's performance was as tight as Irina's. As soon as she landed the 3Lutz+2Loop, she settled down into the program and was doing very nicely. After the fall she continued to attack the program. Irina skated nervous throughout the whole thing, with inferior choreography and interpretation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    I wouldn't say Michelle's performance was as tight as Irina's. As soon as she landed the 3Lutz+2Loop, she settled down into the program and was doing very nicely. After the fall she continued to attack the program. Irina skated nervous throughout the whole thing, with inferior choreography and interpretation.
    Well, we have different opinions, but I think it's hard to dispute that Irina had more complex choreography than Kwan. Nonetheless, Kwan placed 3rd because she fell.

  5. #20
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    Sasha was underscored. She was so special. And Sarah truly deserved that gold. She grew into a world class skater with a fire in her belly. It was meant to be. A travesty would have been MK winning gold. Lyra was performed by a different skater. I wish there had been a tie-3 way at Nagano.

    Salt Lake had the right podium, I think.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    I wouldn't say Michelle's performance was as tight as Irina's. As soon as she landed the 3Lutz+2Loop, she settled down into the program and was doing very nicely. After the fall she continued to attack the program. Irina skated nervous throughout the whole thing, with inferior choreography and interpretation.
    She was also SLOW, I dont think I have ever seen her skate slow, and given that she needs speed, energy, and personality to make her presentation even adequate, she should have probably had a horrible 2nd mark for her performance that night (a couple judges did giving a 5.6, but not most).

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    She was also SLOW, I dont think I have ever seen her skate slow, and given that she needs speed, energy, and personality to make her presentation even adequate, she should have probably had a horrible 2nd mark for her performance that night (a couple judges did giving a 5.6, but not most).

    Yeah, the biased German and Italian judges.
    Speed was considered mostly in the 1st mark, not the 2nd mark. And her choreography even without her "speed" was more than adequate.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftertherain View Post
    As for the Michelle-Frank split, I think Michelle is the only person who truly knows why it happened--during TSL's interview with Frank Carroll, Carroll claimed to not understand why either, so I'll leave it at that. If Frank doesn't know, I highly doubt think any poster on this board has a clear and definite answer as to why.

    Regarding the 2001-2002 season as a whole, I kind of liked the "Miraculous Mandarin" program she debuted at the 2001 GPF (and to my knowledge, this is the only time we've ever seen this program)--it wasn't a perfect debut; not by a long shot, but I still liked it.

    No commentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWarys9kuzM
    With (critical) commentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKvcx7w8lEI

    It was definitely different to what she skated to prior to this program. It's a shame she didn't stick with it--and it irked me that Peter Carruthers(?) said she need to go "more mainstream to make it more familiar with people."
    I liked the Mandarin program also. Very sophisticated for skating - not your usual Carmen/Rach2/etc. I think it would have made more of an impression. About that night. Even Hughes said she had never skated like that before. She was juvenile looking but so far ahead jumping-wise. I think it was impossible to deny her.

  9. #24
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    Yeah, the biased German and Italian judges.
    If they were biased then what term could we use to describe the Russian + affiliate judges? Brainwashed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    Yeah, the biased German and Italian judges.
    Speed was considered mostly in the 1st mark, not the 2nd mark. And her choreography even without her "speed" was more than adequate.
    Whether this is true or not (and it is skating skills that was assigned to the PCS so called 2nd mark so this would seem to be incorrect) speed was neccessary for her to turn in an artistically adequate performance, as obviously she has no elegance, grace, nice positions, sense of style, or decent lines to speak of, so it was energy, effervescence, command, and speed and power that she used to sell her performances and give it some value outside the technical aspects. None of those usual traits were there in her performance that night though, so it was just a technically way below her best performance (only 4 clean triples, the least of the top 5) that was slow (for a usually very fast skater) and with generally ugly and hesistant skating.

    The only reason I was somewhat ok with Irina beating Michelle in the LP was that Michelle had a fall and she didnt, and that Michelle didnt really deserve to win with her performance that night anyway (nor did Irina, nor did Sarah with her short program, but it was the lesser of 3 evils). I honestly think if Irina had won the short program as she probably should have, Michelle would have been placed 2nd in the LP after Irina's slow and very sluggish performance, just to give Sarah the gold for by far the stongest performant that night again. Michelle controversially winning the short probably cost her a medal spot, and Irina losing it probably gained her one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Whether this is true or not (and it is skating skills that was assigned to the PCS so called 2nd mark so this would seem to be incorrect) speed was neccessary for her to turn in an artistically adequate performance, as obviously she has no elegance, grace, nice positions, sense of style, or decent lines to speak of, so it was energy, effervescence, command, and speed and power that she used to sell her performances and give it some value outside the technical aspects.

    Obviously Slutskaya didn't skate with the same grace and elegance of Kwan, but when looking at her spin or jump landing positions, one could notice that her extensions and lines were more than adequate.


    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    None of those usual traits were there in her performance that night though, so it was just a technically way below her best performance (only 4 clean triples, the least of the top 5) that was slow (for a usually very fast skater) and with generally ugly and hesistant skating.

    No, she landed six triples one foot, arguably more than any other skater of the Top 5. Suguri, Cohen and Kwan had 5 clean triples and Hughes as usual underrotated some of hers BADLY.

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    Actually I thought that was the cleanest program Sarah ever skated. I wasn't a fan, but she did skate her best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I honestly think if Irina had won the short program as she probably should have, Michelle would have been placed 2nd in the LP after Irina's slow and very sluggish performance, just to give Sarah the gold for by far the stongest performant that night again. Michelle controversially winning the short probably cost her a medal spot, and Irina losing it probably gained her one.
    I don't think the judges are that calculated, as they have to make these decisions rather quickly. It would have been very controversial if Michelle placed ahead of Irina with a fall, because the whole pairs controversy was about who made more errors regardless of the quality of the programs.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftertherain View Post
    As for the Michelle-Frank split, I think Michelle is the only person who truly knows why it happened--during TSL's interview with Frank Carroll, Carroll claimed to not understand why either, so I'll leave it at that. If Frank doesn't know, I highly doubt think any poster on this board has a clear and definite answer as to why.

    Regarding the 2001-2002 season as a whole, I kind of liked the "Miraculous Mandarin" program she debuted at the 2001 GPF (and to my knowledge, this is the only time we've ever seen this program)--it wasn't a perfect debut; not by a long shot, but I still liked it.

    No commentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWarys9kuzM
    With (critical) commentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKvcx7w8lEI

    It was definitely different to what she skated to prior to this program. It's a shame she didn't stick with it--and it irked me that Peter Carruthers(?) said she need to go "more mainstream to make it more familiar with people."
    Yes! I do hate to beat a dead horse, but with more traction, Miraculous Mandarin is powerful enough for gold

  15. #30
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I don't think the judges are that calculated, as they have to make these decisions rather quickly.
    It's not very difficult to figure out? Commentators even noted it took the judges a long time for their scores after Slutskaya skated.

    Hughes deserved the win and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Finnish and American judges scored Slutskaya over Kwan in order to give Hughes the Gold.

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