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Thread: Michelle Kwan's 2001-2002 Season- Can you fill me in?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    It's not very difficult to figure out? Commentators even noted it took the judges a long time for their scores after Slutskaya skated.

    Hughes deserved the win and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Finnish and American judges scored Slutskaya over Kwan in order to give Hughes the Gold.
    Doing that would really be inexcusable. It is the judge's job to rank the skaters based on the performance and not the desired outcome. To suggest that an American judge would knock Kwan off the top of the podium to make room for Sarah if he/she thought Kwan was better than Irina is IMO laughable.

  2. #32
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    considering the kerfluffle of the pairs and dance events the judges/ISU had to make sure a clean skater took home the prize otherwise the media would've made such a stink that figure skating would've been out of future games.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    considering the kerfluffle of the pairs and dance events the judges/ISU had to make sure a clean skater took home the prize otherwise the media would've made such a stink that figure skating would've been out of future games.
    Not necessarily, we often saw a good long program that didn't win because the skater was outside the top 3. I can't see an American judge being "in on it" to put Sarah ahead of Michelle. The marks were close and I think any objective observer thought it could have gone either way.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    Obviously Slutskaya didn't skate with the same grace and elegance of Kwan, but when looking at her spin or jump landing positions, one could notice that her extensions and lines were more than adequate.
    Only when it comes to the technical aspects of skating (the elements) and her Biellmann position which she does repeatedly is terrible btw. Look at a close up of Denise in the middle of the spin and Slutskaya in the middle and they dont even look like they are doing the same spin at all.


    No, she landed six triples one foot, arguably more than any other skater of the Top 5. Suguri, Cohen and Kwan had 5 clean triples and Hughes as usual underrotated some of hers BADLY.
    In no way should her triple flip count as a clean jump. I thought her 2nd triple lutz was clearly two footed and so did Scott Hamilton in the NBC booth and Paul Martini in the CBC. So either 4 or 5 clean triples. I thought Cohen had 6 clean triples actually so I might have to rewatch her performance. Under 6.0 thinking Hughes definitely had 7 clean triples, including 2 super difficult triple-triple combinations. Amazing that Irina still actually beat her on technical marks that night, and narrowly lost only due to the presentation mark of some judges. I can only imagine the controversy had Irina won gold by virtue of directly winning the LP with that skate.

    I am not sure if anyone is aware of this but had the Finland judge gave Irina 5.8, 5.8 rather than 5.8, 5.7 she would have won. This judge gave Sarah 5.7, 5.8 so only had Sarah ahead on the 2nd mark tiebreaker rule. Although I do agree with Blades that there is a very good shot both the American and Finnish judges only even placed Irina 2nd over Michelle due to wanting to make sure Hughes won, in which case the Finnish judge wouldnt have even been thinking of giving Irina the gold medal winning mark despite it appearing that way.

    The German judge had to give Irina a 5.6 for presentation to prevent her from having the winning 5th vote too. Had this judge given 5.7, 5.8 rather than 5.7, 5.6 (had already given Hughes 5.7, 5.7 and Kwan 5.6, 5.7) Irina also would have won, although it appers David21 would actually be fine with that!?!

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    Actually, I wouldn't mind if Fumie Suguri had won. She was closest to clean in both SP and LP. And her LP is gorgeous.

  6. #36
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Yeah, '02 was a very weird Olympics, but I think the podium was the way it should've been (love Michelle but she fell and Irina didn't). But I still think Michelle was the rightful winner of the Worlds later that season. Both Michelle and Irina skated cleanly but a bit conservatively (no triple-triple combo), but Michelle's basic skating skills were just so much more polished, IMO.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I am not sure if anyone is aware of this but had the Finland judge gave Irina 5.8, 5.8 rather than 5.8, 5.7 she would have won. This judge gave Sarah 5.7, 5.8 so only had Sarah ahead on the 2nd mark tiebreaker rule. Although I do agree with Blades that there is a very good shot both the American and Finnish judges only even placed Irina 2nd over Michelle due to wanting to make sure Hughes won, in which case the Finnish judge wouldnt have even been thinking of giving Irina the gold medal winning mark despite it appearing that way.

    The German judge had to give Irina a 5.6 for presentation to prevent her from having the winning 5th vote too. Had this judge given 5.7, 5.8 rather than 5.7, 5.6 (had already given Hughes 5.7, 5.7 and Kwan 5.6, 5.7) Irina also would have won, although it appers David21 would actually be fine with that!?!
    Well, that was how the 6.0 system was designed. Each judge decided who he thought deserved to finish first, second, etc., and then juggled the marks to make it come out that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyk75 View Post
    Yeah, '02 was a very weird Olympics, but I think the podium was the way it should've been (love Michelle but she fell and Irina didn't). But I still think Michelle was the rightful winner of the Worlds later that season. Both Michelle and Irina skated cleanly but a bit conservatively (no triple-triple combo), but Michelle's basic skating skills were just so much more polished, IMO.
    The problem for Michelle was that she needed another person to beat Irina because she was too far behind after the SP. Even if Michelle won the LP she would have come in 2nd.

  9. #39
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    Personally I don't think the Michelle Kwan Olympic story is really complete if you don't mention 1994. That would have been the first time she qualified for Nationals as a Senior. The commentators kept mentioning how young she was and how her coaches did not think she was ready to compete at the Senior level but Michelle had gone behind their backs and taken the Senior Test anyway.

    1994 was the year of the Nancy Kerrigan/Tonya Harding incident. Tonya "won" and Michelle got second. A second place finish at Nationals normally would have earned Michelle a spot on the Olympic team; however, USFS decided that Nancy and Tonya should represent the US so Michelle became the alternate. At the time I felt bad for Michelle - the way she handled it earned my respect for her early on. Over the years, my respect for her continued to grow.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post



    In no way should her triple flip count as a clean jump. I thought her 2nd triple lutz was clearly two footed and so did Scott Hamilton in the NBC booth and Paul Martini in the CBC. So either 4 or 5 clean triples. I thought Cohen had 6 clean triples actually so I might have to rewatch her performance. Under 6.0 thinking Hughes definitely had 7 clean triples, including 2 super difficult triple-triple combinations.

    So you think that Irina's flip shouldn't count as a clean jump while you give Hughes a free pass for her ugly, small, underrotated jumps? That first "super difficult" 3-3 combo was in fact a 2.75-2.5 combination and in no way should have recievd full credit, 6.0 system or not. Her only lutz was also clearly underrotated.

    And Irina's 2nd triple lutz wasn't two footed I'm quite sure of that.

    And for the record, yes I'm applauding the judges who placed Slutskaya ahead of Hughes in the free. Hughes never should have been in the position to beat Sluskaya after the SP anyway.

    ETA: Cohen slightly two-footed her 2nd lutz (or flip, can't remember) but that was only visible in the super slo-mo but that would make it also 5 clean triples from her.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    And for the record, yes I'm applauding the judges who placed Slutskaya ahead of Hughes in the free.
    I think it was one of those "you had to be there" things. Hughes, for all her faults, blew the roof off the joint. It was on Irina to give the judges something to get excited about. Micro-analysis after the fact -- OK, whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by KwanIsALegand View Post
    BUT, come 2003…
    I know, right? I can't wait for Wordsworthgirl to get to 2003.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by concorde View Post
    Personally I don't think the Michelle Kwan Olympic story is really complete if you don't mention 1994. That would have been the first time she qualified for Nationals as a Senior. The commentators kept mentioning how young she was and how her coaches did not think she was ready to compete at the Senior level but Michelle had gone behind their backs and taken the Senior Test anyway.

    1994 was the year of the Nancy Kerrigan/Tonya Harding incident. Tonya "won" and Michelle got second. A second place finish at Nationals normally would have earned Michelle a spot on the Olympic team; however, USFS decided that Nancy and Tonya should represent the US so Michelle became the alternate. At the time I felt bad for Michelle - the way she handled it earned my respect for her early on. Over the years, my respect for her continued to grow.
    It was a moment that showed her character and the character of her parents too. They did not make a fuss or bring a lawsuit to get their way. Instead, Michelle traveled over to Norway and practiced in another rink to be at the ready just in case. She showed that she was willing to serve the good of the team rather than her own ends. Her chance to shine came at Worlds, where at that age, most of the pressure to maintain two spots for the following year fell on her. She kept her cool and finished eighth, if I recall--thereby insuring two spots the next year. No wonder the USFSA loved her.

  13. #43
    Tripping on the Podium
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    My personal highlight of the the '02 season was Michelle's triple lutz double loop at nationals...

  14. #44
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    So you think that Irina's flip shouldn't count as a clean jump while you give Hughes a free pass for her ugly, small, underrotated jumps? That first "super difficult" 3-3 combo was in fact a 2.75-2.5 combination and in no way should have recievd full credit, 6.0 system or not. Her only lutz was also clearly underrotated.
    I wouldn't say any of Hughes' jumps were ugly. They were neat and clean. Only one Triple would have deserved a < call (and maybe the 2T in combination). The lutz was on the wrong edge, so that's also a deduction, but in the end her content was still better than Slutskaya's. And the performance was in a whole different world. Even if Slutskaya had landed the Flip cleanly she wouldn't have deserved to win over Hughes.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    So you think that Irina's flip shouldn't count as a clean jump while you give Hughes a free pass for her ugly, small, underrotated jumps? That first "super difficult" 3-3 combo was in fact a 2.75-2.5 combination and in no way should have recievd full credit, 6.0 system or not. Her only lutz was also clearly underrotated.

    And Irina's 2nd triple lutz wasn't two footed I'm quite sure of that.

    And for the record, yes I'm applauding the judges who placed Slutskaya ahead of Hughes in the free. Hughes never should have been in the position to beat Sluskaya after the SP anyway.

    ETA: Cohen slightly two-footed her 2nd lutz (or flip, can't remember) but that was only visible in the super slo-mo but that would make it also 5 clean triples from her.
    Again this was 6.0 era, not COP. I already conceded under COP Hughes would have done very poorly even with her "skate of a life", probably scored barely over 100 points with only 2 fully clean triples or so (granted I think there is a single performance that night that would have even cleared 120 under COP), and finished barely in or right out of the top 10. However this was not the COP era, and it makes no sense to judge the programs under COP thinking. (PS- Hughes would have probably tried to fix many of her technical issues had she ever competed under COP, how successful sh would have been is anyones guess but that is another topic).

    Under 6.0 thinking yes Hughes's jumps were all clean, including the 2 triple-triples. Basically if a jump was landed solidly on one foot, and was less than a half turn underrotated it was clean under 6.0. On the other hand a jump like Irina's triple flip which pitched way forehand and swung around to save the landing would not be a clean jump under 6.0 thinking. Her 2nd triple lutz wouldnt be either if it was indeed two footed, and if I, Scott Hamilton, and Paul Martini all thought it was, there is a good chance many judges did too.

    Irina's performance was also extremely slow, and devoid of any confidence, attack, or assurance. The fact she came within .1 of winning with such a poor skate shows the judges were more than willing to hand it to her on a platter (especialy after Kwan's performance) so she only has herself to blame for not winning that night (just like in Turin).

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