Michelle Kwan's 2001-2002 Season- Can you fill me in? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Michelle Kwan's 2001-2002 Season- Can you fill me in?

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
And for the record, yes I'm applauding the judges who placed Slutskaya ahead of Hughes in the free.

I think it was one of those "you had to be there" things. Hughes, for all her faults, blew the roof off the joint. It was on Irina to give the judges something to get excited about. Micro-analysis after the fact -- OK, whatever.

BUT, come 2003…

I know, right? I can't wait for Wordsworthgirl to get to 2003. :)
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Personally I don't think the Michelle Kwan Olympic story is really complete if you don't mention 1994. That would have been the first time she qualified for Nationals as a Senior. The commentators kept mentioning how young she was and how her coaches did not think she was ready to compete at the Senior level but Michelle had gone behind their backs and taken the Senior Test anyway.

1994 was the year of the Nancy Kerrigan/Tonya Harding incident. Tonya "won" and Michelle got second. A second place finish at Nationals normally would have earned Michelle a spot on the Olympic team; however, USFS decided that Nancy and Tonya should represent the US so Michelle became the alternate. At the time I felt bad for Michelle - the way she handled it earned my respect for her early on. Over the years, my respect for her continued to grow.

It was a moment that showed her character and the character of her parents too. They did not make a fuss or bring a lawsuit to get their way. Instead, Michelle traveled over to Norway and practiced in another rink to be at the ready just in case. She showed that she was willing to serve the good of the team rather than her own ends. Her chance to shine came at Worlds, where at that age, most of the pressure to maintain two spots for the following year fell on her. She kept her cool and finished eighth, if I recall--thereby insuring two spots the next year. No wonder the USFSA loved her.
 

leoncorazon

Skating on through
On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Country
United-States
My personal highlight of the the '02 season was Michelle's triple lutz double loop at nationals...
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
So you think that Irina's flip shouldn't count as a clean jump while you give Hughes a free pass for her ugly, small, underrotated jumps? That first "super difficult" 3-3 combo was in fact a 2.75-2.5 combination and in no way should have recievd full credit, 6.0 system or not. Her only lutz was also clearly underrotated.

I wouldn't say any of Hughes' jumps were ugly. They were neat and clean. Only one Triple would have deserved a < call (and maybe the 2T in combination). The lutz was on the wrong edge, so that's also a deduction, but in the end her content was still better than Slutskaya's. And the performance was in a whole different world. Even if Slutskaya had landed the Flip cleanly she wouldn't have deserved to win over Hughes.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
So you think that Irina's flip shouldn't count as a clean jump while you give Hughes a free pass for her ugly, small, underrotated jumps? That first "super difficult" 3-3 combo was in fact a 2.75-2.5 combination and in no way should have recievd full credit, 6.0 system or not. Her only lutz was also clearly underrotated.

And Irina's 2nd triple lutz wasn't two footed I'm quite sure of that.

And for the record, yes I'm applauding the judges who placed Slutskaya ahead of Hughes in the free. Hughes never should have been in the position to beat Sluskaya after the SP anyway.

ETA: Cohen slightly two-footed her 2nd lutz (or flip, can't remember) but that was only visible in the super slo-mo but that would make it also 5 clean triples from her.

Again this was 6.0 era, not COP. I already conceded under COP Hughes would have done very poorly even with her "skate of a life", probably scored barely over 100 points with only 2 fully clean triples or so (granted I think there is a single performance that night that would have even cleared 120 under COP), and finished barely in or right out of the top 10. However this was not the COP era, and it makes no sense to judge the programs under COP thinking. (PS- Hughes would have probably tried to fix many of her technical issues had she ever competed under COP, how successful sh would have been is anyones guess but that is another topic).

Under 6.0 thinking yes Hughes's jumps were all clean, including the 2 triple-triples. Basically if a jump was landed solidly on one foot, and was less than a half turn underrotated it was clean under 6.0. On the other hand a jump like Irina's triple flip which pitched way forehand and swung around to save the landing would not be a clean jump under 6.0 thinking. Her 2nd triple lutz wouldnt be either if it was indeed two footed, and if I, Scott Hamilton, and Paul Martini all thought it was, there is a good chance many judges did too.

Irina's performance was also extremely slow, and devoid of any confidence, attack, or assurance. The fact she came within .1 of winning with such a poor skate shows the judges were more than willing to hand it to her on a platter (especialy after Kwan's performance) so she only has herself to blame for not winning that night (just like in Turin).
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I actually really loved Irina as a competitor and person and there were many aspects of her skating that were great- her attack, energy, ebullience, spins, height on jumps. But her 2002 Olympic long was not a good performance for her. She lacked dynamism, triple triples, and sparkle. She knew it herself. Look at her face after she finishes!

But Kwan was horrible technically! Slutskaya deserved Gold because of the SP and LP combines and SH overscored in SP. Kwan was lucky to medal.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
The 2002 ladies event is one of those which will be debated endlessly forever (with the only things most seem to agree on is Hughes winning the LP and that Slutskaya probably should have won the SP, but even those have a minority who dispute). Personally I think Cohen and Suguri were both underscored compared to both Kwan and Slutskaya in the LP that night, but that is just me. I do know Cohen had some issues in her skating at the time, but her fall was on the end of a very good attempt of one of the hardest triple-triples in skating. Her spins were also so much better than Kwans or that particular night Slutskayas. Kwan by contrast two footed the simplest triple-double, then fell on a triple flip, and it was one of her worst choreographed programs ever, even though she skated it well overall. Slutskaya was weak in so many ways that night I felt, as I already broke down. Suguri was wonderful except for a doubled triple loop, and it was by far her best program ever. I could honestly see the LP standings having gone:

2. Cohen
3. Kwan or Suguri
5. Slutskaya

Although realistically given the rep value of these skaters the judges were never going to score it that way. Then again I would have had Hughes no higher than 6th in the short program.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
But Kwan was horrible technically! Slutskaya deserved Gold because of the SP and LP combines and SH overscored in SP. Kwan was lucky to medal.

Horrible? I don't think so. She made mistakes but Irina had a mistake in her long program, too, and also skated in a rushed and overwrought manner. Her movements at the end--the face palming or whatever it was--were almost laughable. Irina was greatly over-scored on the second mark on that skate. She was lucky to be placed ahead of Michelle, even with Michelle's mistakes. Michelle certainly deserved to medal. Sasha had her usual splat and didn't have Michelle's overall skating skills or presence on the ice. No one else (other than the three who medaled) was a serious medal contender. Michelle won the short program on the second mark, by the way.
 

David21

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
My last post on this topic:


Under 6.0 thinking yes Hughes's jumps were all clean, including the 2 triple-triples.


No, the rules under 6.0 were quite clear that underrotation is a mistake. In the SP, it was a deduction smilar to a step out. The fact that the judges often didn't notice, chose not to notice or simly didn't care about underrotation is a different thing of course.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
At the time, many people raved about Irina's "big" jumps. There was spring to her jumping, and her jumps covered more ice than, say, Michelle or others.

Many people argued that Irina should have won the OGM in 2002, not because of her LP which was precariously performed but still technically clean. People argued that either Irina and/or Sasha should have been 1-2 in the SP, and Michelle should only have been 2nd or 3rd. Irina had a one-foot footwork sequence with huge jumps, and a 3lutz-2loop. Michelle under-rotated a jump. If Irina and/or Sasha were above Michelle, Hughes wouldn't have been able to come up from 4th after the SP to 1st under the old system. Irina would still have won the gold even if she was 2nd in the LP. Back then, Sasha was a 17 year-old newcomer, and not having paid her dues, she didn't have the cachet yet. But the judges loved her. She had best layback, overall spins, spirals, etc. out of the bunch, and her only weakness was flutzing which wasn't that big of a deal since many of her rivals had the same problem as well. I actually thought Schubert was Irina's best program, possibly ever. It was actually very polished and disguised her supposed lack of artistry.

Till this day, nobody knows why Michelle left Frank. It was heartbreaking for him. They still love each other very much. It is obvious she was his favorite pupil.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Back then, Sasha was a 17 year-old newcomer, and not having paid her dues, she didn't have the cachet yet. But the judges loved her. She had best layback, overall spins, spirals, etc. out of the bunch, and her only weakness was flutzing which wasn't that big of a deal since many of her rivals had the same problem as well.

It wasn't about paying her dues. Sasha wasn't a very good skater yet in 2002 as far as ice coverage, speed, edges, as well as the flutz you mentioned. During the broadcast even Scott seemed surprised by her scores, as he was expecting a deduction for her footwork that didn't finish the full circle.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
It wasn't about paying her dues. Sasha wasn't a very good skater yet in 2002 as far as ice coverage, speed, edges, as well as the flutz you mentioned. During the broadcast even Scott seemed surprised by her scores, as he was expecting a deduction for her footwork that didn't finish the full circle.

Scott has been off the mark many times. Remember when he thought Yagudin wasn't going to win OGM and that he "conceded" to Timothy Goebbels?

Sasha's scores could have been higher considering the lesser performances of her rivals. There could have been a deduction somewhere, but you wouldn't know it in the 6.0 system. Her only actual flaws would be the shallower footwork sequence and the flutzing. Even the finest skaters at that time flutzed frequently or at best took off from a flat blade.

In 2002 Olympics, Irina should have been 1st after the SP based on her superior technical execution of the elements.
 
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