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Thread: The Throw Triple Axel and S/S

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    The Throw Triple Axel and S/S

    I was just reading an icenetwork article about German Nationals and it looks like Savchenko and Szolkowy are still planning on using the throw triple axel in their programs...

    Here's a link to the article (SPOILERS for German Nationals):
    http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2013/12/17/66014152

    It turns out that Aliona hurt her back at COR and they couldn't train the element. I had thought they had decided to get rid of that element, and honestly I thought eliminating it did wonders for their skating. They also scored MUCH better at the GPF than they've been scoring recently so I kind of got the impression the judges were telling them to eliminate that element...

    The way they talk about the axel it's like reading Moby Dick.

    I also noticed they have decided not to compete in the team event. I didn't really think Germany would be a huge factor anyway in this event and I'm guessing the German Federation feels that way too, since it doesn't seem like it will be that big of a deal for them to miss it.

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    I think a lot of people don't get the mentality of pushing the boundaries and an athlete's will to challenge themselves. Yes, it can be a hindrance to overreach- but if its a case of perseverance and not the impossible, there comes a point when the competition at large doesn't even matter to these people. It's a personal hurdle. With S/S, they obviously like the idea of being pioneers (correct me if I'm wrong, but needless the say, no one else is doing it) for the element in pairs skating. With Asada- people glean over the fact that NOBODY else does it. It's hard work, and when it pays off, there's a bigger sense of achievement on their part as athletes and not for the gratification of audience and naysayers alike. I mean, surely people said the exact same thing when quads were only for the likes of Plushenko and Joubert and the lot way back when- and now its become mandatory. The 3A will probably become the same for ladies some time in the future, and maybe there will be a new Miki Ando-esque figure who will insist on trying a quad.

    Figure skating is a beautiful sport. But it is a sport. Elite athletes need to push instead of resting on their laurels.

    But that's just imo.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I'd feel better about them going for the 3ATh if it were rewarding by points commensurate with its difficulty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BounceAround View Post
    On the one hand, I admire their (Aliona's?) obsession with the element. That kind of crazy has always been alluring to me.

    On the other hand, WHYYY!??!!??!!? Training this element is not only risky, but it's going to take up so much practice time and mental focus (during their competitive skates) that they could be devoting to other elements of their skating. They have so much more to offer. From my limited skating experience, I really think that what you put into an element like this is not equal to what you get out. At the same time, realizing this kind of feeds back into the admiration.

    Is that really so hard to understand? S/S and Steuer obviously want to skate for the Gold Medal this time and they are thinking that even if S/S skate cleanly at Sotchi, it will be likely that they will lose against a clean or almost clean V/T, and from judging from the scores they were getting this season that possibility doesn't sound that unlikey. Of course S/s just beat V/T at the GPF final but they only won because V/T made several mistakes. A triple axel from S/S could give them the necessary points to beat a clean V/T in Sochi.

    And for the record, I enjoy S/S's programs this season without a (usually messed up) triple axel just fine.

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    One does not simply skate into Sochi MaiKatze's Avatar
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    Yes, it is that time again. Always ignoring figure skating and when the Olympics arrive we get reports all around. Germanys main television station ARD showed this interesting documentary yesterday. http://www.sportschau.de/av/videosav...ftritt100.html

    If you don't understand german but you are interested, the most important part is probably that S/S will go for the T3A in Sochi again.

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    It's an impressive move but their consistency with it is abysmal, especially putting it at the very end of the program as a hail mary pass. They should consider using it as a last resort like at Worlds, if they've had a bad program, might as well go for it. But if they've had a clean program, a major error on it at the very end mars the whole program and lefts a lasting impression that certainly doesn't say "Give them the gold."

    Perhaps if they happen to skate after V/T they should see how they skate, and then make the call. But it's been ages since a pairs team with a fall in their FS won the Olympics. It certainly wouldn't help against V/T.

    They should stick with what got them the points at the GPF.

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    I may be mistaken because the Team Event rules is new and unclear to many people but isn't the #1 ranked skater/pair/dance of the participating country required to skate at least a portion of the Team Event (i.e. at least the SP/SD)? I hope this can be clarified because you'll otherwise see a lot of drop outs and op outs that would become nightmare for the ISU and an embarrassment to the IOC.

    Given that the Germans are contenders against the Russians for Gold in pairs, I think it's important that S/S and the German federation seek clarification with ISU and IOC to avoid the possibility of any misunderstanding that can result in sanctions against S/S and/or the German Fed. Trust me, the last thing you want to see is the Russian Fed filing an objection the day after the Team Event, claiming the Germans broke the rules and causing the S/S to lose their eligibility to take part in the individual events. These Team Event rules are new to everybody and they are not very clear to say the least, better be sure than sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    I may be mistaken because the Team Event rules is new and unclear to many people but isn't the #1 ranked skater/pair/dance of the participating country required to skate at least a portion of the Team Event (i.e. at least the SP/SD)? I hope this can be clarified because you'll otherwise see a lot of drop outs and op outs that would become nightmare for the ISU and an embarrassment to the IOC.

    Given that the Germans are contenders against the Russians for Gold in pairs, I think it's important that S/S and the German federation seek clarification with ISU and IOC to avoid the possibility of any misunderstanding that can result in sanctions against S/S and/or the German Fed. Trust me, the last thing you want to see is the Russian Fed filing an objection the day after the Team Event, claiming the Germans broke the rules and causing the S/S to lose their eligibility to take part in the individual events. These Team Event rules are new to everybody and they are not very clear to say the least, better be sure than sorry.
    I don't think that would happen. That would be pretty outrageous and diminish any legitimate victory by V/T.

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    I am also concerned about their wisdom of planning to arrive the day after the Team Event which is the day before Pairs event. While it's relatively close, therefore, not much of jet lag issue, without a doubt, the security will be extremely tight in Sochi due to the recent back to back bombing in Russia. There could be unforeseen delays and there is only one direct commercial / regularly scheduled flight between Germany (Frankfurt) and Sochi, Russia at that time operated by Aeroflot (Russian airline). Any other connections, either via Moscow or somewhere else, you are looking at a nightmareish scenario of having to spend at least 24 hours just on travel time where the direct flight would have taken only 3 hours. Not to mention, possible delayed or lost luggage which may contain critical equipment such as their skates unless they plan to ship their equipment by FedEx or UPS or something equivalent.

    All in all, I am at their planning. It makes no sense to me they plan to arrive the day before their event of lifetime with everything that is going on. By experience, whenever there is only one direct flight to a certain destination / day and you have an event that you absolutely cannot miss the day after, don't plan to take that flight. A flight can go mechanical, weather delayed or otherwise cancelled for all sort of reasons. Sochi is quite remote and out of the way. If they missed the flight, they can't just take the train to get there from Germany. Whoever is doing the logistic planning for them is beyond my comprehension.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I don't think that would happen. That would be pretty outrageous and diminish any legitimate victory by V/T.
    Yet this kind of thing happens all the time, cases or participation /candidacy getting tossed due to some technical violations. Even when Obama first entered Chicago politics, he once had the candidacy of an opponent of his disqualified prior to election day via some technical violation of election by-laws. Granted, that was not a major office but this is to illustrate you can't take these things lightly.

    And trust me, if S/S got disqualified, the Russians will not shed a tear however way they can secure V/T's Olympic Gold.

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    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    I may be mistaken because the Team Event rules is new and unclear to many people but isn't the #1 ranked skater/pair/dance of the participating country required to skate at least a portion of the Team Event (i.e. at least the SP/SD)? I hope this can be clarified because you'll otherwise see a lot of drop outs and op outs that would become nightmare for the ISU and an embarrassment to the IOC.
    No. This is not the WTT where certain top-ranked skaters are (theoretically) required to take part. A country is only obliged to field entries for the Olympic team event from among its participating skaters. From communication 1839:
    If a NOC/ISU Member has 2 or 3 entries in an individual OWG competition/discipline then the NOC/ISU Member must declare the Skaters/Couples to compete in the Short Program/Short Dance of the Team Event latest at 10.00 hours (a.m.), local time on site of the OWG, the day before the beginning of the first Short Program/Short Dance of the Figure Skating Team Event.
    Clearly the choice of participants is being left up to each NOC/ISU member. My understanding is that Japan is planning on splitting assignments and will not necessarily be fielding its best skaters throughout, and nobody is forcing V/T to take part either.

    I realize people think Russia will stop at nothing to guarantee a gold for V/T, but while I have no doubt that the politicking for V/T is epic and will be even more so by Sochi, but this is really pushing it. They can't use this avenue to make things difficult for S/S.

    And S/S really do need to drop the 3A. They're better without it.

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    I think for the LP the 3A could give them the Gold. Doing it at the end of the LP is such a WOW-moment and it's worth 3.3 more in base value over the Triple Salchow. It should be worth more, the points are not balanced correctly, but it could still be what puts them over the Russians.

    For the SP, I don't think it's worth the risk. They only get 2 points in base value over the 3Flip, it hurts their transitions, and it really hurts the whole feel of their SP if the element isn't clean.

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    I think they should use it in the long program, but not the short. Some people would say the Grand Prix final win was hugely encouraging for them, and I agree, but the points there still paint very clearly that without the throw 3axel, if V&T skate cleanly (which they have done in all but the GPF this season) they will defeat a clean S&S (which they only managed at the GPF this season, and about only the 3rd time their whole career). In Russia this will be even more the case, and in fact had the GPF been held in Russia V&T probably would have won even with the performances there (wrongfully, but it is probably what would have happened, 3 points is easily made up with Russian turf). So I understand the logic in still wanting to include it, but I would include it in the long, but not the short.

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    Tbh, if V/T skate cleanly even a 3A won't help the Germans... It won't even make it close, unless its landed superbly and gets huge GOE.

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    I'm gonna Customize the CRAP out of this Title!!! Frenchie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    I may be mistaken because the Team Event rules is new and unclear to many people but isn't the #1 ranked skater/pair/dance of the participating country required to skate at least a portion of the Team Event (i.e. at least the SP/SD)?
    The Germans have 2 spots in the Pairs Event, and have the right to enter whatever of those 2 Pairs in the Team Event they want. They will enter the 2nd Pair, very likely Wende/Wende. From there on, S/S don't have any obligation to be there, since "replacing an injured Pair" or "switching Pairs between SP and LP" is a right, not an obligation.

    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    All in all, I am at their planning. It makes no sense to me they plan to arrive the day before their event of lifetime with everything that is going on.
    I agree with if that's true... Maybe some misinformation so their arrival and stay doesn't get that much attention? To avoid V/T fans camping in front of their hotel and banging frying pans against each other during the entire night?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    I think for the LP the 3A could give them the Gold. Doing it at the end of the LP is such a WOW-moment and it's worth 3.3 more in base value over the Triple Salchow. It should be worth more, the points are not balanced correctly, but it could still be what puts them over the Russians.
    For the SP, I don't think it's worth the risk. They only get 2 points in base value over the 3Flip, it hurts their transitions, and it really hurts the whole feel of their SP if the element isn't clean.
    I for sure agree that they shouldn't contemplate doing the 3A in the SP, since their 3F is so reliable and gets good GOEs.
    I'd question the use of the 3A instead of the 3S in the LP: as you point out, it's not worth enough, and it seems to me as if they don't really plan on landing the 3A on 1 foot even in a best-case-scenario. Since their 3S is beautiful, very reliable and with a difficult entry, I'd say most of the 3.3pts is eaten up by the difference in GOE, even with a "good 3A" (ie 2footed and/or step-out, no<, no fall).
    Plus, I'd really like to know from an ISU judge how much lower their PCS score get for the 3A-program compared to the 3S-program. With the 3A, they have this awkward 4 seconds without any choreo before the jump, whereas with the 3S, there's choreo and transitions all along.
    Of course there will be some leniency given the 3A is such a huge achievement, but still, that difference should also be taken into account.
    Last: not doing the 3A would allow them to focus more on landing their 3T-3T seq! (more time in the warm-up)

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