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Thread: About jump combos

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    About jump combos

    So I was wondering what is the future for jump combinations? In recent years 4-3, 3a-3 combos, and 3-3, 2a-3 combos for women have become fairly requirements for top skaters. Also 3-1lo-3 3-jump-combo is featured in some of men's programs. Is that a possible combo for women instead of a 3-2-2? Are some practicing different combos but which are too hard for programs? Is 4-4 a possibility (or 3-4)? Is it possible for women to do two 3-3 combos in programs? I remember a talk about a 3-3-2 in some women programs? Who is/are doing it?

    And I totally different question: Kovtun's jumping technique... Why is he in such a bad posture when taking off for his quads? Can he fix it or does he need to? Because to my eye it is distracting and interrupts to the program as would a long waiting before take off.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by supsu View Post
    So I was wondering what is the future for jump combinations? In recent years 4-3, 3a-3 combos, and 3-3, 2a-3 combos for women have become fairly requirements for top skaters. Also 3-1lo-3 3-jump-combo is featured in some of men's programs. Is that a possible combo for women instead of a 3-2-2? Are some practicing different combos but which are too hard for programs? Is 4-4 a possibility (or 3-4)? Is it possible for women to do two 3-3 combos in programs? I remember a talk about a 3-3-2 in some women programs? Who is/are doing it?
    Interesting question. Figuring skating does seem like it is trying to inch it's way back to where it was ten, twenty, or even thirty years ago, jump-wise. 1982, Midori Ito does the first ladies triple-triple combo, as a junior. 1988, Ito does a 2A + half loop + 3S combo and a 3T-3T combo at the Olympics. 1992, Ito does a triple Axel-triple toe combination in practice at the Olympics. 1997. Elvis Stojko does the first 4T+3T combo. 1999, Plushenko does the first 4/3/2 combo. 2002, Plushenko does 4T+3T+3Lo (step out of the loop) at the Olympics. (I think Kevin van der Perren has the first clean 4+3+3 combo.)

    As for two triple-triple combos in a ladie's program, I think Tara Lipinski was first at the 1998 Olympics, with a triple loop + triple loop and a triple toe + half loop + triple Salchow.

    I don't know if modern skaters will be able to catch up or not. The IJS puts a lot of other demands in the "balanced program" requirements.

    I think some day we will see a man who can do a quad-quad combo. But Plushenko never did, so maybe it's impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Interesting question. Figuring skating does seem like it is trying to inch it's way back to where it was ten, twenty, or even thirty years ago, jump-wise. 1982, Midori Ito does the first ladies triple-triple combo, as a junior. 1988, Ito does a 2A + half loop + 3S combo and a 3T-3T combo at the Olympics. 1992, Ito does a triple Axel-triple toe combination in practice at the Olympics. 1997. Elvis Stojko does the first 4T+3T combo. 1999, Plushenko does the first 4/3/2 combo. 2002, Plushenko does 4T+3T+3Lo (step out of the loop) at the Olympics. (I think Kevin van der Perren has the first clean 4+3+3 combo.)

    As for two triple-triple combos in a ladie's program, I think Tara Lipinski was first at the 1998 Olympics, with a triple loop + triple loop and a triple toe + half loop + triple Salchow.

    I don't know if modern skaters will be able to catch up or not. The IJS puts a lot of other demands in the "balanced program" requirements.

    I think some day we will see a man who can do a quad-quad combo. But Plushenko never did, so maybe it's impossible.

    Wasn't Mao doing two 3-3 along with her 3a between 2006-07 until 2008-09 season? I remember seeing her doing them in 2007 Worlds and 2008 4CC and Worlds. I think some of the Junior ladies skaters are attempting two 3-3 combos in competitions.

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    Yes, quite so. Here is a video compilation of Mao's triple-triples by GS contributor Bartek.

    Mao is credited with a 3F+3Lo+3T at age twelve.

    Yes, lots of juniors can jump up a storm. It seems to be quite a bit harder a couple of years later when they get to the senior ranks.

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by supsu View Post
    So I was wondering what is the future for jump combinations? In recent years 4-3, 3a-3 combos have become fairly requirements for top skaters.
    These combos actually aren't the most valuable in CoP as it stands right now. You get more points by doing your big jumps in the first half of the program, not in combination, and then doing all of your combinations in the second half of the program.

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    I think Hanyu has something like a quad+3A+3A sequence, right? But he can't do it in competition because it sacrifices too many CoP points. :(

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    These combos actually aren't the most valuable in CoP as it stands right now. You get more points by doing your big jumps in the first half of the program, not in combination, and then doing all of your combinations in the second half of the program.
    Blades, can you please give me details regarding CoP. Because I thought jumps have extra points tacked on automatically in the second half of the programs, since you tend to be more tired towards the end of the program than you do in the beginning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by supsu View Post
    Also 3-1lo-3 3-jump-combo is featured in some of men's programs. Is that a possible combo for women instead of a 3-2-2?
    It's possible and it has been done.

    triple toe + half loop + triple Salchow

    Kristina Oblasova did 3F+1Lo+3S at 2001 Jr. Worlds, not currently available on youtube.

    In the early years of IJS these kinds of combinations weren't worth doing because they were considered sequences and only scored 80% of the value of the two triples. A few years ago the rules were changed to count them as three-jump combinations with full value for all three jumps (subject to underrotation/downgrade discounts), so we're starting to see them more often. I can't think of examples from women offhand, but I'm sure there have been some.

    Is it possible for women to do two 3-3 combos in programs?
    Again, it was first done before IJS:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SXO6s3MCDw&t=1m02s
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfIPrfuZqZY&t=1m35s

    And again, the penalties for downgrades, especially in the earlier years of IJS when missing 91 degrees of rotation changed the value of a triple to that of a double, made them riskier for women to attempt, since the difficulty of attempting something more difficult is not rewarded on the merits of difficulty of what's attempted. At least now that jumps underrotated by less than 180 degrees get a lesser penalty for the base mark, they're often still worth more than the lower-revolution jump.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franklin99 View Post
    Blades, can you please give me details regarding CoP. Because I thought jumps have extra points tacked on automatically in the second half of the programs, since you tend to be more tired towards the end of the program than you do in the beginning.
    The scoring for jump combinations just adds the values of the two (or three) jumps in the combination together, with no extra reward for putting two difficult jumps together in the same element.

    However, there is an extra reward for jumps in the second half of the program. So there's value in putting as many of the jumps -- i.e., the combinations -- in the second half.

    So for elite men, who can often put 3T on the back of another 3-revolution jump with relative ease but may be less consistent and need fresher legs for triple axels and quads, it may make sense to put those jumps earlier in the program without combinations or with only a 2T on the end if they want to repeat one of them, and to save combinations like 3Lz+3T, 3F+3T, or even 3Lz+1Lo+3F for the rare guy who can accomplish that later in the second-half bonus period.

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    Thank you gkelly.

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    🌸🐱❄🐱❄🐱🌸 jennyanydots's Avatar
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    This is one of the glaring flaws of the judging system. It doesn't reward difficulty of combos. A skater doing a 3Z-3T combo and 2A will get the same amount of points as a skater doing a lone 3Z and 2A-3T combo. That's why the 2A-3T combo has become so popular with the ladies. It's a way to get in 7 triples in the LP without having to do a 3-3. There have been several skaters who have done two 3-3 combos in their LP like Sarah Hughes, Kimmie Meissner and Shizuka Arakawa. As for the 3-1L-3 combo, some ladies who have done it are Tara Lipinski, Elena Radionova, Anna Pogorylaya and Joannie Rochette. I also cannot stand watching Maxim Kovtun's jumping technique. I suppose it gets the job done but it's just ugly and can't be considered good technique.

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Joannie's triple flip half loop triple sal was a joy when she hit it. That quick, efficient rotation...you never doubted it was rotated.

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    Medvedeva has consistently presented a FS with two 3-3s (3F+3T and 3S+3T) during the JGP, for the JGPF she changed her 3S+3T into a 2A+3T

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    Radionova, Sakhamovich, Alaine Chartrand, and a slew of junior skaters are attempting 3-1/2L-3S. It's a great thing to see a skater do a 3Z-3T and then a half loop 3S combo. I hope they FS rid of the sequence rule as we might see more XX-3A sequence attempts from the men, like Yuzu's 4T-3A.

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    Michael Chack once tried a one-foot Axel / quad toe combination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Michael Chack once tried a one-foot Axel / quad toe combination.
    With "one-foot axel" you mean this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeBHw7hCkes? Or maybe you meant a one-foot axel+4Salchow combo...

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