About jump combos | Golden Skate

About jump combos

supsu

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 30, 2013
So I was wondering what is the future for jump combinations? In recent years 4-3, 3a-3 combos, and 3-3, 2a-3 combos for women have become fairly requirements for top skaters. Also 3-1lo-3 3-jump-combo is featured in some of men's programs. Is that a possible combo for women instead of a 3-2-2? Are some practicing different combos but which are too hard for programs? Is 4-4 a possibility (or 3-4)? Is it possible for women to do two 3-3 combos in programs? I remember a talk about a 3-3-2 in some women programs? Who is/are doing it?

And I totally different question: Kovtun's jumping technique... Why is he in such a bad posture when taking off for his quads? Can he fix it or does he need to? Because to my eye it is distracting and interrupts to the program as would a long waiting before take off.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
So I was wondering what is the future for jump combinations? In recent years 4-3, 3a-3 combos, and 3-3, 2a-3 combos for women have become fairly requirements for top skaters. Also 3-1lo-3 3-jump-combo is featured in some of men's programs. Is that a possible combo for women instead of a 3-2-2? Are some practicing different combos but which are too hard for programs? Is 4-4 a possibility (or 3-4)? Is it possible for women to do two 3-3 combos in programs? I remember a talk about a 3-3-2 in some women programs? Who is/are doing it?

Interesting question. Figuring skating does seem like it is trying to inch it's way back to where it was ten, twenty, or even thirty years ago, jump-wise. :) 1982, Midori Ito does the first ladies triple-triple combo, as a junior. 1988, Ito does a 2A + half loop + 3S combo and a 3T-3T combo at the Olympics. 1992, Ito does a triple Axel-triple toe combination in practice at the Olympics. 1997. Elvis Stojko does the first 4T+3T combo. 1999, Plushenko does the first 4/3/2 combo. 2002, Plushenko does 4T+3T+3Lo (step out of the loop) at the Olympics. (I think Kevin van der Perren has the first clean 4+3+3 combo.)

As for two triple-triple combos in a ladie's program, I think Tara Lipinski was first at the 1998 Olympics, with a triple loop + triple loop and a triple toe + half loop + triple Salchow.

I don't know if modern skaters will be able to catch up or not. The IJS puts a lot of other demands in the "balanced program" requirements.

I think some day we will see a man who can do a quad-quad combo. But Plushenko never did, so maybe it's impossible. :)
 

Franklin99

Medalist
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Interesting question. Figuring skating does seem like it is trying to inch it's way back to where it was ten, twenty, or even thirty years ago, jump-wise. :) 1982, Midori Ito does the first ladies triple-triple combo, as a junior. 1988, Ito does a 2A + half loop + 3S combo and a 3T-3T combo at the Olympics. 1992, Ito does a triple Axel-triple toe combination in practice at the Olympics. 1997. Elvis Stojko does the first 4T+3T combo. 1999, Plushenko does the first 4/3/2 combo. 2002, Plushenko does 4T+3T+3Lo (step out of the loop) at the Olympics. (I think Kevin van der Perren has the first clean 4+3+3 combo.)

As for two triple-triple combos in a ladie's program, I think Tara Lipinski was first at the 1998 Olympics, with a triple loop + triple loop and a triple toe + half loop + triple Salchow.

I don't know if modern skaters will be able to catch up or not. The IJS puts a lot of other demands in the "balanced program" requirements.

I think some day we will see a man who can do a quad-quad combo. But Plushenko never did, so maybe it's impossible. :)


Wasn't Mao doing two 3-3 along with her 3a between 2006-07 until 2008-09 season? I remember seeing her doing them in 2007 Worlds and 2008 4CC and Worlds. I think some of the Junior ladies skaters are attempting two 3-3 combos in competitions.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Yes, quite so. Here is a video compilation of Mao's triple-triples by GS contributor Bartek. :thumbsup:

Mao is credited with a 3F+3Lo+3T at age twelve.

Yes, lots of juniors can jump up a storm. It seems to be quite a bit harder a couple of years later when they get to the senior ranks.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
So I was wondering what is the future for jump combinations? In recent years 4-3, 3a-3 combos have become fairly requirements for top skaters.

These combos actually aren't the most valuable in CoP as it stands right now. You get more points by doing your big jumps in the first half of the program, not in combination, and then doing all of your combinations in the second half of the program.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think Hanyu has something like a quad+3A+3A sequence, right? But he can't do it in competition because it sacrifices too many CoP points. :(
 

Franklin99

Medalist
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
These combos actually aren't the most valuable in CoP as it stands right now. You get more points by doing your big jumps in the first half of the program, not in combination, and then doing all of your combinations in the second half of the program.

Blades, can you please give me details regarding CoP. Because I thought jumps have extra points tacked on automatically in the second half of the programs, since you tend to be more tired towards the end of the program than you do in the beginning.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Also 3-1lo-3 3-jump-combo is featured in some of men's programs. Is that a possible combo for women instead of a 3-2-2?

It's possible and it has been done.

triple toe + half loop + triple Salchow

Kristina Oblasova did 3F+1Lo+3S at 2001 Jr. Worlds, not currently available on youtube.

In the early years of IJS these kinds of combinations weren't worth doing because they were considered sequences and only scored 80% of the value of the two triples. A few years ago the rules were changed to count them as three-jump combinations with full value for all three jumps (subject to underrotation/downgrade discounts), so we're starting to see them more often. I can't think of examples from women offhand, but I'm sure there have been some.

Is it possible for women to do two 3-3 combos in programs?

Again, it was first done before IJS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SXO6s3MCDw&t=1m02s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfIPrfuZqZY&t=1m35s

And again, the penalties for downgrades, especially in the earlier years of IJS when missing 91 degrees of rotation changed the value of a triple to that of a double, made them riskier for women to attempt, since the difficulty of attempting something more difficult is not rewarded on the merits of difficulty of what's attempted. At least now that jumps underrotated by less than 180 degrees get a lesser penalty for the base mark, they're often still worth more than the lower-revolution jump.

Blades, can you please give me details regarding CoP. Because I thought jumps have extra points tacked on automatically in the second half of the programs, since you tend to be more tired towards the end of the program than you do in the beginning.

The scoring for jump combinations just adds the values of the two (or three) jumps in the combination together, with no extra reward for putting two difficult jumps together in the same element.

However, there is an extra reward for jumps in the second half of the program. So there's value in putting as many of the jumps -- i.e., the combinations -- in the second half.

So for elite men, who can often put 3T on the back of another 3-revolution jump with relative ease but may be less consistent and need fresher legs for triple axels and quads, it may make sense to put those jumps earlier in the program without combinations or with only a 2T on the end if they want to repeat one of them, and to save combinations like 3Lz+3T, 3F+3T, or even 3Lz+1Lo+3F for the rare guy who can accomplish that later in the second-half bonus period.
 

jennyanydots

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
This is one of the glaring flaws of the judging system. It doesn't reward difficulty of combos. A skater doing a 3Z-3T combo and 2A will get the same amount of points as a skater doing a lone 3Z and 2A-3T combo. That's why the 2A-3T combo has become so popular with the ladies. It's a way to get in 7 triples in the LP without having to do a 3-3. There have been several skaters who have done two 3-3 combos in their LP like Sarah Hughes, Kimmie Meissner and Shizuka Arakawa. As for the 3-1L-3 combo, some ladies who have done it are Tara Lipinski, Elena Radionova, Anna Pogorylaya and Joannie Rochette. I also cannot stand watching Maxim Kovtun's jumping technique. I suppose it gets the job done but it's just ugly and can't be considered good technique.
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Joannie's triple flip half loop triple sal was a joy when she hit it. That quick, efficient rotation...you never doubted it was rotated.
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Medvedeva has consistently presented a FS with two 3-3s (3F+3T and 3S+3T) during the JGP, for the JGPF she changed her 3S+3T into a 2A+3T
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Radionova, Sakhamovich, Alaine Chartrand, and a slew of junior skaters are attempting 3-1/2L-3S. It's a great thing to see a skater do a 3Z-3T and then a half loop 3S combo. I hope they FS rid of the sequence rule as we might see more XX-3A sequence attempts from the men, like Yuzu's 4T-3A. :love::jaw:
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
In the first incarnation of Gracie Gold's LP last season she had 3Lz+3T and 3F+1Lo+3S combos but with all the other requirements included and the pressure of competition, she was having a hard time skating clean competitively so they went back to 3+3 and 2A+3. She was also working on 2A+1Lo+3F and 3Lz+1Lo+3F this past summer, but I suspect that was an attempt to fix her 3F entry and something "for fun" more than anything else.

BoP means that it is better for a guy to do 4T, 4T+2T, and 3A in the first half of a program and then 3A+2T+2Lo, 3Lz+3T, 3F, 3S, 2A in second half because those jump passes in the second half get an additional 10% bonus. :)
 

Srin Odessa

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 23, 2012
The issue is that you want your combination jumps in the back half of your program to maximize points. It's very difficult to perform these high risk combos in the second half of your program.

1999, Plushenko does the first 4/3/2 combo. 2002, Plushenko does 4T+3T+3Lo (step out of the loop) at the Olympics. (I think Kevin van der Perren has the first clean 4+3+3 combo.)

Plushenko did a clean 4T-3T-3Lo at CoR 2003. I think the 3Lo was borderline but he didn't step out.
 

TryMeLater

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
This is one of the glaring flaws of the judging system. It doesn't reward difficulty of combos. A skater doing a 3Z-3T combo and 2A will get the same amount of points as a skater doing a lone 3Z and 2A-3T combo. That's why the 2A-3T combo has become so popular with the ladies. It's a way to get in 7 triples in the LP without having to do a 3-3. There have been several skaters who have done two 3-3 combos in their LP like Sarah Hughes, Kimmie Meissner and Shizuka Arakawa. As for the 3-1L-3 combo, some ladies who have done it are Tara Lipinski, Elena Radionova, Anna Pogorylaya and Joannie Rochette. I also cannot stand watching Maxim Kovtun's jumping technique. I suppose it gets the job done but it's just ugly and can't be considered good technique.

Could not have agreed more.
A skater will probably have a higher score if he does a 2A-3T and 3Lz instead of a 3Lz-3T and 2A due to GOE.
That's something the ISU has to fix...

So I was wondering what is the future for jump combinations? In recent years 4-3, 3a-3 combos, and 3-3, 2a-3 combos for women have become fairly requirements for top skaters. Also 3-1lo-3 3-jump-combo is featured in some of men's programs. Is that a possible combo for women instead of a 3-2-2? Are some practicing different combos but which are too hard for programs? Is 4-4 a possibility (or 3-4)? Is it possible for women to do two 3-3 combos in programs? I remember a talk about a 3-3-2 in some women programs? Who is/are doing it?

And I totally different question: Kovtun's jumping technique... Why is he in such a bad posture when taking off for his quads? Can he fix it or does he need to? Because to my eye it is distracting and interrupts to the program as would a long waiting before take off.

Carolina Kostner was actually quite a brilliant technician early in her career.
She used to do 3F-3T-2L up until 2008.
 
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