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Thread: About jump combos

  1. #16
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    In the first incarnation of Gracie Gold's LP last season she had 3Lz+3T and 3F+1Lo+3S combos but with all the other requirements included and the pressure of competition, she was having a hard time skating clean competitively so they went back to 3+3 and 2A+3. She was also working on 2A+1Lo+3F and 3Lz+1Lo+3F this past summer, but I suspect that was an attempt to fix her 3F entry and something "for fun" more than anything else.

    BoP means that it is better for a guy to do 4T, 4T+2T, and 3A in the first half of a program and then 3A+2T+2Lo, 3Lz+3T, 3F, 3S, 2A in second half because those jump passes in the second half get an additional 10% bonus.

  2. #17
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    The issue is that you want your combination jumps in the back half of your program to maximize points. It's very difficult to perform these high risk combos in the second half of your program.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    1999, Plushenko does the first 4/3/2 combo. 2002, Plushenko does 4T+3T+3Lo (step out of the loop) at the Olympics. (I think Kevin van der Perren has the first clean 4+3+3 combo.)
    Plushenko did a clean 4T-3T-3Lo at CoR 2003. I think the 3Lo was borderline but he didn't step out.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Michael Chack once tried a one-foot Axel / quad toe combination.
    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    With "one-foot axel" you mean this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeBHw7hCkes? Or maybe you meant a one-foot axel+4Salchow combo...
    It was a quad salchow attempt

  4. #19
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    But it won't be on youtube because he always got "chacked"

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennyanydots View Post
    This is one of the glaring flaws of the judging system. It doesn't reward difficulty of combos. A skater doing a 3Z-3T combo and 2A will get the same amount of points as a skater doing a lone 3Z and 2A-3T combo. That's why the 2A-3T combo has become so popular with the ladies. It's a way to get in 7 triples in the LP without having to do a 3-3. There have been several skaters who have done two 3-3 combos in their LP like Sarah Hughes, Kimmie Meissner and Shizuka Arakawa. As for the 3-1L-3 combo, some ladies who have done it are Tara Lipinski, Elena Radionova, Anna Pogorylaya and Joannie Rochette. I also cannot stand watching Maxim Kovtun's jumping technique. I suppose it gets the job done but it's just ugly and can't be considered good technique.
    Could not have agreed more.
    A skater will probably have a higher score if he does a 2A-3T and 3Lz instead of a 3Lz-3T and 2A due to GOE.
    That's something the ISU has to fix...

    Quote Originally Posted by supsu View Post
    So I was wondering what is the future for jump combinations? In recent years 4-3, 3a-3 combos, and 3-3, 2a-3 combos for women have become fairly requirements for top skaters. Also 3-1lo-3 3-jump-combo is featured in some of men's programs. Is that a possible combo for women instead of a 3-2-2? Are some practicing different combos but which are too hard for programs? Is 4-4 a possibility (or 3-4)? Is it possible for women to do two 3-3 combos in programs? I remember a talk about a 3-3-2 in some women programs? Who is/are doing it?

    And I totally different question: Kovtun's jumping technique... Why is he in such a bad posture when taking off for his quads? Can he fix it or does he need to? Because to my eye it is distracting and interrupts to the program as would a long waiting before take off.
    Carolina Kostner was actually quite a brilliant technician early in her career.
    She used to do 3F-3T-2L up until 2008.

  6. #21
    tripping on the toe pick
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    Quote Originally Posted by TryMeLater View Post
    A skater will probably have a higher score if he does a 2A-3T and 3Lz instead of a 3Lz-3T and 2A due to GOE.
    That's something the ISU has to fix...
    I never thought of that before reading this thread. Doubtful whether they are going to fix it, but well... They did get rid of the 2nd step sequence / awkward spiral thing and replaced those with choreo sequence, so I guess they are not fundamentally opposed to making changes that make sense.

  7. #22
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Yes, quite so. Here is a video compilation of Mao's triple-triples by GS contributor Bartek.

    Mao is credited with a 3F+3Lo+3T at age twelve.

    Yes, lots of juniors can jump up a storm. It seems to be quite a bit harder a couple of years later when they get to the senior ranks.
    Shizuka was landing 3/3/3's around the 2006 games. She didn't go for it in the event but there were practice vids of her landing them effortlessly. There was a practice vid of Hanyu landing 4/3/3--but I don't think we will see this in competition. Too exhausting.

  8. #23
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think Hanyu has something like a quad+3A+3A sequence, right? But he can't do it in competition because it sacrifices too many CoP points. :(
    If you mean his 4T-3A-3A-3A then it's here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLI2bKEL5Dc
    But since it's sequence I think it does not worth much points so it's only for show.

    I don't understand why sequence and combination are not much valuable in COP at the moment. Because they want to prevent skater from repeating a jump many times in a program?

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    If you mean his 4T-3A-3A-3A then it's here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLI2bKEL5Dc
    But since it's sequence I think it does not worth much points so it's only for show.

    I don't understand why sequence and combination are not much valuable in COP at the moment. Because they want to prevent skater from repeating a jump many times in a program?
    It sacrifices many points because if it is in sequence you end up only getting 80% of base value. EDIT: oh you meant, why IJS even has these rules.

    As for doing really difficult jumps in combination.. there simply is no incentive. Doing a 4T-4T and a 3T is worth the same as doing a 4T-3T and a 4T. Why would anyone try to go for the 4T-4T. Also, because of Zayak's rule, if you use up all your quads/triples in a few combinations, you'll end up doing "lame" jumps.

    For example:
    If a Lady does 3Lz-3T
    3F-1Lo-3S
    2A-3T

    For her last four jumping passes she will have to do:
    3Lz
    3Lo
    2A
    2Lz <---

    If there was say, a 10% bonus on base value of jumps done in combination. Then there would be incentive to do more difficult combinations in order to get more bonus points. Similar to how the 10% 2nd half bonus gets skaters to try to balance their programs or even backload their programs.

  10. #25
    tripping on the toe pick
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkun View Post
    It sacrifices many points because if it is in sequence you end up only getting 80% of base value.
    ...

    If there was say, a 10% bonus on base value of jumps done in combination. Then there would be incentive to do more difficult combinations in order to get more bonus points. Similar to how the 10% 2nd half bonus gets skaters to try to balance their programs or even backload their programs.
    That 10% sounds reasonable to me, and then maybe they could get rid of the 80% rule for sequences? It just doesn't make any sense to me that if you do a 3t2a sequence, it's worth less than doing 3t and 2a separately. Also, more variety in jump layouts IMO wouldn't be a bad thing.
    Last edited by nimi; 04-13-2014 at 01:47 PM. Reason: wording clarified

  11. #26
    Medalist Miss Ice's Avatar
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    Pogorilaya landed two 3-3 combos perfectly in her World's LP.

  12. #27
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    Shizuka Arakawa landed 3Lz-3T-2Lo and 3S-3T in 2004W FS, She won it!!

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by nimi View Post
    That 10% sounds reasonable to me, and then maybe they could get rid of the 80% rule for sequences? It just doesn't make any sense to me that if you do a 3t2a sequence, it's worth less than doing 3t and 2a separately. Also, more variety in jump layouts IMO wouldn't be a bad thing.
    Yes please! It also doesn't make sense that a 3L-2A sequence is worth less than a 3L-2L.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by supsu View Post
    And I totally different question: Kovtun's jumping technique... Why is he in such a bad posture when taking off for his quads? Can he fix it or does he need to? Because to my eye it is distracting and interrupts to the program as would a long waiting before take off.
    My best guess will be the lack of speed. All his jumps seems to have little flow.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by nimi View Post
    That 10% sounds reasonable to me, and then maybe they could get rid of the 80% rule for sequences? It just doesn't make any sense to me that if you do a 3t2a sequence, it's worth less than doing 3t and 2a separately.
    Well, the sequence would fill a different slot than the two solo jumps.

    E.g., a senior lady has the option to do three jump combos or sequences plus four solo jumps.

    Depending what her skills are, a sequence of 3T+2A might be worth more than anything she could do in that slot.

    She's required to do an axel somewhere, and repeated triples need to be in combination or sequence at least one of the times they're performed.

    Suppose she can do all the triples up to 3Lz, but she can't put a 3T on the end of another landing.

    With that skill set and those rules, her maximal jump technical content might be something like 3Lz, 3F, 3Lo, 3S,
    3Lz+2T, 3F+2T+2Lo, 3T+2A+SEQ -- with the harder jumps and/or combos in the second half if possible.

    Also, more variety in jump layouts IMO wouldn't be a bad thing.
    I agree with that.

    Currently the high base values for triple axels and quads make those high-risk elements worth trying even with underrotations or otherwise -GOE -- the base values outweigh the GOE risk.

    The same is not so much true for difficult combinations -- which has more of an impact on the ladies, for whom triple-triples are usually the most risky difficult content.

    Ideally it should be worthwhile for each skater to be appropriately rewarded the hardest clean or almost-clean content they are able to deliver.

    But they still have to balance the risk of underrotation, downgrade, -GOE -- or missing the first jump in a combo/sequence and attempting or getting credit for the next jump at all.

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