About jump combos | Page 3 | Golden Skate

About jump combos

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
That is what I was getting at. You see these girls in first warm-up groups who don't have a 3-3 or 2a-3 and whose lutz, flip and maybe loop are kinda unreliable with iffy landings, so they might opt for doing them only as solo jumps. As a result, you see endless 3t2t 3s2t 2a2t combos, with an odd 2loop thrown in. If they were allowed to do, say, one jump seq (e.g. 3t2a) without the 80% thing, there'd be at least a bit more variety in the jump layout.

If they don't do a triple-triple or a double axel and triple in the same jump pass, the maximum number of triples they can include is 6. In some cases they leave out one (or more) of the types of triples because they can't actually do them. In other cases, they only repeat one kind of triple.

If they want to include 7 triples, they have to get two of the difficult jumps, including double axel, into one jump pass.


3T+2A+SEQ is the easiest possible way to do that.
It's worth more than 2A+2T, which is what it would take the place of.

So the system already makes it more valuable to do that kind of sequence than any double-double combo. Only if they did 2A+2Lo+2Lo would the base value of a combo with no triples exceed 3T+2A+SEQ even with the sequence multiplier.

The reason why skaters don't choose that option is probably because it's risky to put the only axel in the program at the end of a sequence -- if they miss the first jump, they won't get credit for the axel, and because an axel is required they will lose credit for the whole last jump pass. With 2A+double(s) combo, at least if they have a bad landing on the first jump at least they still get some credit for the flawed axel.

But for those who are doing two 2A jump passes because they don't have the ability to do 7 triples (5 kinds with 2 repeats), the system itself already rewards the sequence with triple more than it does the double-double combo.

This is from a lay viewers perspective, of course. Would there be a downside from skaters' and/or judges' perspective if sequences with 2a became more common and a lot of skaters without 3-3 combos (which, in this scenario, would have 10% bonus on base value) would be doing them?

ETA: Well, I explained why from the skater's perspective there would be a downside to including triple+2A sequence as the only axel in the program.

The way the system works now, judges just judge each element and the program components -- they have no reason to think about what the sequence penalty does to the base value or whether an element will get credit it all (until they see the asterisks on the screen) -- that's the tech panel's responsibility. And the tech panel just identifies what the skater did, with some room for interpretation if there's a break in the rhythm but no extra steps between two jumps in an intended sequence.

If something is unusual, judges have the option to reward it under the "Originality" criterion of the Choreography program component. I doubt that one unusual jump sequence would make much different in that mark, but theoretically it could. And then if it started becoming common instead of uncommon, it would no longer inspire any such reward.

If a skater were to do two difficult jumps (double axels, triples, and or quad) with a couple of steps or turns in between -- the sort of thing that might have been considered a jump sequence under the less-restrictive definitions in the 6.0 era -- then the two jumps would fill two separate jump slots. No sequence penalty, but also one less open slot available for other jump elements elsewhere in the program. However, judges could reward two jumps so close together in the GOE especially for the second jump (difficult/unexpected entrance) and also in the Transitions component.

Skaters will really only care about how they can maximize their points -- which includes not only the base values of the jumps but also the likely GOE, likelihood of underrotations/downgrades or other costly failures, possible second half bonus . . . and also any possible advantage they might earn in program components for an unusual jump layout.

Since PCS are entirely up to the judges' discretion and therefore unpredictable, skaters are less likely to take risks in hopes of that kind of reward.
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Country
Russia
3T+2A+SEQ is the easiest possible way to do that.

The reason why skaters don't choose that option is probably because it's risky to put the only axel in the program at the end of a sequence -- if they miss the first jump, they won't get credit for the axel, and because an axel is required they will lose credit for the whole last jump pass.
Murakami at season 2012/2013 had 3F+2A+Seq (in planned content), in fact 3F+1A+Seq.
At least once her axel in this sequence was so bad that was not listed in protocol. As a result - her last jumping element was not scored.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Murakami at season 2012/2013 had 3F+2A+Seq (in planned content), in fact 3F+1A+Seq.
At least once her axel in this sequence was so bad that was not listed in protocol. As a result - her last jumping element was not scored.

She missed that axel a LOT. I wish she had the sense to have put the axel as a solo jump, because she always singled it and ran the risk of her final jumping pass not counting if the flip was missed. And you can tell that the axel is not her most confident jump and she needs a bit of setup to execute it. That was not the smartest strategy.
 

Mista Ekko

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 9, 2009
1999, Plushenko does the first 4/3/2 combo. 2002, Plushenko does 4T+3T+3Lo (step out of the loop) at the Olympics. (I think Kevin van der Perren has the first clean 4+3+3 combo.)

Plushenko did a clean 4T-3T-3Lo at CoR 2003. I think the 3Lo was borderline but he didn't step out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlu_OJeyWII


Add this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVS554SM-dA=24s

And you've got 3 people waiting for Mathman to change that first thought he had in the second post of the thread ;)



W-O-O-W
 

AngelENTL

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 1, 2014
This is one of the glaring flaws of the judging system. It doesn't reward difficulty of combos. A skater doing a 3Z-3T combo and 2A will get the same amount of points as a skater doing a lone 3Z and 2A-3T combo. That's why the 2A-3T combo has become so popular with the ladies

That is a very glaring flaw. Surprising that it hasn't been rectified.
 

Globetrotter

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
That is a very glaring flaw. Surprising that it hasn't been rectified.

And add the fact that the tech panel keeps on picking up the < on loop based combinations, so much so that now virtually nobody tacks the triple loop after another triple. Currently, only Asada still practices it and after her imminent retirement, we are left with no loops and 3A. Interesting that the newer crop of skaters tend to have poor edge jumps and I am just surprised why there are no female skaters attempting the 3A since Asada. Tacking a 3R seems to be out of fashion, gone are the days of Lipinski, Slutskaya and soon Asada. Pity, if the 3R after a triple is rewarded with say a bonus of 15%, I bet many ladies will try. For the 3A, it seems the BV is not attractive enough.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Tacking a 3R seems to be out of fashion, gone are the days of Lipinski, Slutskaya and soon Asada.

It seemed to be very much in fashion in the late 90s/early 00s, after Lipinski popularized it. And then a lot of girls ended up with career-ending hip injuries. Including Lipinski. There definitely seemed to be correlation.

Slutskaya, Ando, Asada don't seem to have had those problems, so it's not guaranteed to destroy hips, but is it worth the risk?
 

Franklin99

Medalist
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
It seemed to be very much in fashion in the late 90s/early 00s, after Lipinski popularized it. And then a lot of girls ended up with career-ending hip injuries. Including Lipinski. There definitely seemed to be correlation.

Slutskaya, Ando, Asada don't seem to have had those problems, so it's not guaranteed to destroy hips, but is it worth the risk?

Is the 3f-3lo base value the same or lower than a 3lz-3t base value? (I tried googling and got a bunch of different outcomes).
 

usethis2

Medalist
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
That 10% sounds reasonable to me, and then maybe they could get rid of the 80% rule for sequences? It just doesn't make any sense to me that if you do a 3t2a sequence, it's worth less than doing 3t and 2a separately. Also, more variety in jump layouts IMO wouldn't be a bad thing.

Loss of 20% seems a bit steep but without some deduction skaters can rack up points with easy sequences that do not look pretty. Yuzuru's 4T+3A+3A+3A above is pretty cool today, but imagine a lady doing 3T+2A+2A+2A+SEQ or something easier. Not sure how exciting that would look but it sure will collect points.
 

usethis2

Medalist
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
jennyanydots said:
This is one of the glaring flaws of the judging system. It doesn't reward difficulty of combos. A skater doing a 3Z-3T combo and 2A will get the same amount of points as a skater doing a lone 3Z and 2A-3T combo. That's why the 2A-3T combo has become so popular with the ladies
That is a very glaring flaw. Surprising that it hasn't been rectified.

It is a flaw. I am guessing the current rules are justified on the basis that a skater doing a 3Lz-3T combo can repeat a 3Lz while a skater doing a lone 3Lz cannot repeat it. Only acceptable alternative is to assign values to all possible variations of combos which is probably too many and too complex, so it's kind of a dilemma. Giving bonus to combos also risks pushing skaters toward easier combos to earn points instead of doing a more difficult jump. I mean, it wasn't long ago that people were upset that men could win a competition without a quad. Imagine giving bonus to 3-3's or 3-2's.
 

nimi

Medalist
Joined
Apr 7, 2014
^^ re: ladies and possible 3t2a2a2a+seq:
Right, but sequences/combos with 4 jumps are illegal anyway, and I don't think all those triple-double-double combos we see in the latter half of the program look particularly exiting, either. :laugh:

Also, looking at the previous answers concerning Kanako, apparently doing a 2a or even 1a in sequence in competition is more risky and challenging than one would think... So unless you have a really, really reliable axel technique and competitive nerve, you'd better stick to those double toes and double loops anyway(?)
 

alebi

Medalist
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
then why not giving a bonus (for ex. 10%) only for the second triple jump in a combo (or a triple following a quad)? this way a 3Lz-3T gets a bonus on the 3T while a 2A-3T no... this should "force" skaters to train difficult combos
 

usethis2

Medalist
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
I agree. Current 3-2-2's aren't that exciting and mostly performed to collect points. But it's difficult to come up with an alternative that is fair to everyone.

How about: Each jump in 3 jump combo should contain more revolution(s) than another.

That would limit 3 jump combos to 4-3-2, 5-4-3, 6-5-4 etc. :biggrin:
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
It seemed to be very much in fashion in the late 90s/early 00s, after Lipinski popularized it. And then a lot of girls ended up with career-ending hip injuries. Including Lipinski. There definitely seemed to be correlation.

Slutskaya, Ando, Asada don't seem to have had those problems, so it's not guaranteed to destroy hips, but is it worth the risk?
Lipinski was the famous one but I also hear that she just overtrained and it wasn't really just the 3-3 that killed her hip. Is there any other prominent skater who actually had a career-ending hip injury directly attributable to the 3-3Loop? Seeing Slutskaya, then Ando and Asada last this long while training their combinations makes me slightly doubtful.
 
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