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Thread: About jump combos

  1. #61
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    Well, I was talking about 3 jump combo not 2 jump combo, but 2A-3T should be fine just as 2A-3T-4Lo. It doesn't violate the rule of more revolution(s) per jump.

  2. #62
    a cat watching figure skating alebi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usethis2 View Post
    Well, I was talking about 3 jump combo not 2 jump combo, but 2A-3T should be fine just as 2A-3T-4Lo. It doesn't violate the rule of more revolution(s) per jump.
    ahahah it should get a "life bonus" just for having thought it

  3. #63
    tripping on the toe pick
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    ^ Ha, that would be an interesting combo, especially for a lady!

    But think about the poor skater whose 2a3t is underrotated and downgaded into 2a2t and therefore an illegal jumping pass and void... Yeah, this gets pretty complicated pretty quickly.

  4. #64
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    It does become really complicated indeed. We have 6 different jumps that can be performed up to 4 rotations (let's exclude quintuples for the moment), and the resulting number of unique possible combos are:

    Points = First jump (any of the 6 jumps, any of 1~4 revs) + Second jump (Toe-loop or Loop, up to 4 revs) + (Combo bonus)

    Number of Points = 6 (first jump) x 2 (second jump, Toe-loop or Loop) x 4 (first jump revolution) x 4 (second jump revolution) = 192

    I am sure I've made mistakes somewhere but you get the idea. That's just for 2 jump combinations.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by usethis2 View Post
    Loss of 20% seems a bit steep but without some deduction skaters can rack up points with easy sequences that do not look pretty. Yuzuru's 4T+3A+3A+3A above is pretty cool today, but imagine a lady doing 3T+2A+2A+2A+SEQ or something easier. Not sure how exciting that would look but it sure will collect points.
    For jump sequences (as opposed to true combinations), only the two highest-value jumps earn points, 80% of base value.
    So there would be no value in putting more than two difficult jumps in a sequence. The other jumps are meant as connectors, usually half or single jumps.

    Yes, it can look exciting and would be worth doing without the 80% penalty. Or keep the penalty but go back to allowing one turn (or step or edge change) between jumps, as long as the rhythm is maintained, so you could get things like 2A, falling leaf, inside three, 3T.

    Quote Originally Posted by alebi View Post
    then why not giving a bonus (for ex. 10%) only for the second triple jump in a combo (or a triple following a quad)?
    Remember the same rules have to apply to weaker seniors for whom doing any triple is a triumph and triple-triple combinations only a pipe dream.

    Giving bonus points only for 3-3 or 4-3 combinations does reward cutting edge difficulty but leaves out the vast majority of skaters.

    Is the idea only to encourage the top jumpers to push the envelope as far as possible and hope some of the others will follow along eventually? Or to come up with rules about how to reward jump combos that make theoretical sense at all levels of competition -- including junior and below as well as seniors? Or should there be different bonuses for men vs. women, seniors vs. juniors, etc.?

    this way a 3Lz-3T gets a bonus on the 3T while a 2A-3T no... this should "force" skaters to train difficult combos
    Why do you want to force skaters to train difficult combos? The likely result will be more injuries and less interesting, less difficult programs between the jumps.

    I know you put "force" in quotes, so you really mean reward, not force.

    But do we want to turn figure skating into a jump contest in which everyone tries the hardest jumps possible, whoever is left standing takes home the medals, and everyone else retires and undergoes surgery?

    Or can we also build bigger rewards into non-jump skills, or non-rotational aspects of jump skills, so that skaters who execute more difficult content in all ways except numbers of revolutions in the air will still be competitive with those who can rotate in the air but not do much else, and each skater can choose the appropriate strategy for his or her skill set?

    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    Lipinski was the famous one but I also hear that she just overtrained and it wasn't really just the 3-3 that killed her hip. Is there any other prominent skater who actually had a career-ending hip injury directly attributable to the 3-3Loop? Seeing Slutskaya, then Ando and Asada last this long while training their combinations makes me slightly doubtful.
    The examples won't always be prominent skaters if injuries ended or diminished their careers before they reached the world level.

    Off the top of my head, skaters aside from Lipinski who were training triple loop combinations in the early 2000s whose careers were derailed by 3Lo-related injury included Deanna Stellato (who may have had other issues as well that led to her retirement) and Bebe Liang (unable to do loop jumps at all later in her career). I remember hearing Jenny Kirk had been practicing both 3S+3Lo and 4S before her hip injury -- she never tried either in competition.

    Others whose career ended about that time due to injury were Naomi Nari Nam (hip injury) and Elizabeth Kwon; Sasha Cohen missed a year with a back injury. I don't remember that these three had been training loop combinations specifically -- maybe Nam.

    I didn't hear that much about skaters outside the US. Yukina Ota comes to mind as a promising Japanese skater derailed by injuries, but I don't know that she ever attempted 3Lo combos

    Heck, for that matter, Michelle Kwan was practicing 3Lo combos in the early 2000s to try to match Slutskaya, though she only tried 3Lz+3Lo once in competition and didn't come close, and she ended up with similar injuries.

    Anyway, it's a difficult skill, it should be appropriately rewarded if the skater can pull it off, but I don't think we want to force all skaters to train them. Same for triple axels and quads, especially for women.

    Reward difficult jumps when successful, but don't make the sport all about jumps that very few will ever be able to achieve, to the point that all those other skaters get broken trying to skills beyond their own strengths.

    (Same goes for flexibility moves in spins, spirals, etc.)

  6. #66
    tripping on the toe pick
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    Thanks again, gkelly!
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    For jump sequences (as opposed to true combinations), only the two highest-value jumps earn points, 80% of base value.
    So there would be no value in putting more than two difficult jumps in a sequence. The other jumps are meant as connectors, usually half or single jumps.

    Yes, it can look exciting and would be worth doing without the 80% penalty. Or keep the penalty but go back to allowing one turn (or step or edge change) between jumps, as long as the rhythm is maintained, so you could get things like 2A, falling leaf, inside three, 3T.
    Yes please!

    I remember watching a rehearsal vid with Lambiel doing two 2As in sequence, one Ccw and the other Cw, and thinking it would be great if it made sense to do a sequence like that in competition, instead wasting precious points by getting only 80% of base value. Rotation in both directions at least helps you get levels in spins (even though very few singles skaters I've seen actually do that) but it doesn't give you an edge when it comes to jumping passes... Oh well, I guess since the whole points system isn't there to give viewers delightful variation to gawk at but rather to standardize elements, I should just stop thinking about what could be, artistically and aesthetically, and learn to approach skating purely as a points game, save for few very special skaters.

  7. #67
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    you're all thinking about this too complicated! Just get rid of sequence base value penalty and add 10% BV bonus to jumps done in combination. This 10% bonus makes a 3Lz-3T more worth it (more bonus points) than a 2A-3T.

  8. #68
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    I definitely think one big problem with the new judging system is that there's little incentive to do hard combinations. It's kinda sad that Hanyu's doing solo quads (and splatting on the salchow) when he's capable of doing good combinations, because backloading gives him so many points (heck, he beat a clean Machida with an underrotated fall in the SP on the power of his LP base points). Under the new rules, there's no incentive (indeed, there's a punishment, since it's better to add those jumps to the second half) of pushing quad combos.

    10% bonus for combo... then solo quad + 3-3-2 in the second half would still be worth more than 4-3-2 with solo triple. I'm conflicted about whether that's correct. (The 3-3-2 gets both the combo bonus /and/ the halfway bonus?) Maybe quad combos should have extra GOE or something.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    I definitely think one big problem with the new judging system is that there's little incentive to do hard combinations. It's kinda sad that Hanyu's doing solo quads (and splatting on the salchow) when he's capable of doing good combinations, because backloading gives him so many points (heck, he beat a clean Machida with an underrotated fall in the SP on the power of his LP base points). Under the new rules, there's no incentive (indeed, there's a punishment, since it's better to add those jumps to the second half) of pushing quad combos.

    10% bonus for combo... then solo quad + 3-3-2 in the second half would still be worth more than 4-3-2 with solo triple. I'm conflicted about whether that's correct. (The 3-3-2 gets both the combo bonus /and/ the halfway bonus?) Maybe quad combos should have extra GOE or something.
    I think not exactly. Hanyu is doing it this way because he is able to do 2 x 3A combinations in 2nd half. If it is easier then quad combo, then why others are not going this way ? I think it is not easier for everyone, and 3A is not easy jump for many so they feel more comfortable I think to throw this first combo and one 3A in first half.
    And to throw Hanyu's layout you need two diffrent quads. Javier have two good quads, then why he don't use the same layout as Yuzuru ? He propably feels more comfortable with three quads than with 3A in combinations in 2nd half.


    I personally enjoy more to watch layout with two diffrent solo quads then with two 4T , with one in combo

  10. #70
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    I'd have less of a problem if Hanyu were regularly hitting both quads. I haven't worked out the points, but Hanyu evidently thinks it's fine to fall on one quad and have two triple axel combos rather than "wasting" one combo on a quad. Maybe this is a separate issue about falls not being punished harshly enough.

    It's pretty hard to judge what exactly should be rewarded more since people just find different things more difficult. Don't Goebel and Javier basically say that quad salchow isn't much harder than the toe for them? While Hanyu can rat off triple axel combos but has problems with the salchow. Then we can wonder if they're naturally inclined toward certain things, or if their training just prepared them differently.

    I understand it's good to see more different quads (though it's mainly just toe and salchow still). I like that as well. But I also think the current rules don't reward difficult combinations enough. 4-3-2 and 4-3-3 are basically dead arts, and there's little incentive for someone to make the fabled 4-4 combination.

    I mean, if I understand correctly: If someone does 4-3, then 3-2-2 in the second half, they score more points than someone who does 4-3-2 and 3-2 in the second half. Maybe I'm just showing my lack of technical expertise here, but that doesn't sound right to me.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    I'd have less of a problem if Hanyu were regularly hitting both quads. I haven't worked out the points, but Hanyu evidently thinks it's fine to fall on one quad and have two triple axel combos rather than "wasting" one combo on a quad. Maybe this is a separate issue about falls not being punished harshly enough.
    Actually Orser wanted him to do two 4T with one in combination which he can throw a lot easier than 4S, but Hanyu didn't wanted, because for him it is more important to move forward with higher difficulty Actually he had problems back in 2011 as I remember with tripple salchow. He seems to not like this jump, so it is even more respect from me that he can pull quad version of sal. In practices currently it looks very consistent. Hope at worlds it was mental unlock, because it is just mental thing.

    Javier seems to be more confident actually with salchow than with toe.

  12. #72
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    Yeah, I heard about Orser. I have mixed feelings about Hanyu's insistence on the salchow. On one hand, this does point to one good thing about the judging system: since it forgives errors 6.0 does not, it gives more chances for people to push the sport forward. On the other hand, I really don't like it when the Olympic and world champion is opting for a strategy that's essentially "fall, it doesn't matter. I can handle the blow with my jacked-up base value." (Don't get me wrong, I like Hanyu). It confuses the hell out of normal people and doesn't do the sport a lot of good.

    Can't there be a perfect system where I can have my 4-3-3 (and future 4-4?) and you can have your quad salchow (and future loop and flip), and everyone can win with their own unique abilities depending on who performed best that day? Haha, not happening, I know.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkun View Post
    you're all thinking about this too complicated! Just get rid of sequence base value penalty and add 10% BV bonus to jumps done in combination. This 10% bonus makes a 3Lz-3T more worth it (more bonus points) than a 2A-3T.
    I agree with jkun. The combo bonus should be commensurate with the difficulty of the elements in it (i.e. a percentage), not a flat combo bonus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    10% bonus for combo... then solo quad + 3-3-2 in the second half would still be worth more than 4-3-2 with solo triple. I'm conflicted about whether that's correct. (The 3-3-2 gets both the combo bonus /and/ the halfway bonus?) Maybe quad combos should have extra GOE or something.
    Current system: A>B by 0.54
    4T (10.3) - 10.3
    3Z-3T-2T (6.0 + 4.1 + 1.3 = 11.4) + 10% bonus after half (1.14) - 12.54
    SKATER A TOTAL: 22.84

    4T-3T-2T (10.3 + 4.1 + 1.3 = 15.7) - 15.7
    3Z (6.0) + 10% bonus after half (0.6) - 6.6
    SKATER B TOTAL: 22.3

    WITH COMBO BONUS: A>B by 0.11

    4T (10.3) - 10.3
    3Z-3T-2T (6.0 + 4.1 + 1.3 = 11.4) + 10% bonus for combo (1.14) + 10% bonus after half (1.14) - 13.68
    SKATER A TOTAL: 23.98

    4T-3T-2T (10.3 + 4.1 + 1.3 = 15.7) + 10% bonus for combo (1.57) - 17.27
    3Z (6.0) + 10% bonus after half (0.6) - 6.6
    SKATER B TOTAL: 23.87

    The scoring with the combo bonus looks fairer to me. I don't think being able to do 4T-3T should be the end all-be all, but it should be more highly regarded scoring-wise than it currently is.

  14. #74
    a cat watching figure skating alebi's Avatar
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    @gkelly
    I like your observations, my idea was only based on the fact that a 3Lz+3T and 2A has the same reward as a 3Lz 2A+3T (or, and it's worst from my point of view, 4T+3T and 3Lz is the same as 4T and 3Lz+3T). I know that giving a bonus for the second triple in combo excludes weaker skaters but I also think that a weaker skater is already left out by itself from the fight for the top. If we focus on skaters with the "full package" there should be a reward if you're trying to add a 3T after a 4T (if you're a man) or after a 3Lz (if you're a woman) and obviously you do it well. It's a risk that skaters should take if they feel comfortable with it and know that it'll be really a jolly and not just a combo. This can be something like the "quad jump controversy" that, for me, really improved the sport (at least on the man side). This can also push "weaker" skaters to try different combos like, for example, 3S+3T more often... who knows what can be

    But I'm with you when you say that FS can become a jump contest, that's why a score improvement should always go with other suggestions (as you said removing SEQ penalties, considering new patterns of combo allowing transitions and so on...). The scoring system is still pretty new, I don't see nothing wrong if they do some experiments in order to improve the sport and especially to follow the development of training

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    Yeah, I heard about Orser. I have mixed feelings about Hanyu's insistence on the salchow. On one hand, this does point to one good thing about the judging system: since it forgives errors 6.0 does not, it gives more chances for people to push the sport forward. On the other hand, I really don't like it when the Olympic and world champion is opting for a strategy that's essentially "fall, it doesn't matter. I can handle the blow with my jacked-up base value." (Don't get me wrong, I like Hanyu). It confuses the hell out of normal people and doesn't do the sport a lot of good.

    Can't there be a perfect system where I can have my 4-3-3 (and future 4-4?) and you can have your quad salchow (and future loop and flip), and everyone can win with their own unique abilities depending on who performed best that day? Haha, not happening, I know.
    Well, of course, if there was more penalty on a rotated quad fall Hanyu probably would've gotten rid of the 4s after the 12-13 season when he first put it in competition and maybe saved trying the 4s again till after the Olympics - I know that Hanyu said that it was an obstacle that he wanted to overcome, but if there was such large of a difference in scoring, all skaters' layouts would be different and safer. Orser might have convinced him that it's not worth it to keep pushing at the 4s. The choreographed 4s fall strategy only worked because of the lack of penalty on falls. And, well, he was bound to get it sooner or later - thankfully he did at Worlds.

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