Japanese Nationals 2013-2014 - Men

SimplyLex · Dec 21, 2013

snowflake said:
I don't. Olympics is olympics. The best from all countries compete and there has to be selections. Norway could potentially medal with 10-15 of their athletes in cross country skiing, but a lot of them are not chosen to go. It's a big advantage to compete in a country where your sport is popular and invested in. The Japanese guys have opportunities that skaters from smaller figure nations nations don't have. I have no problem with the rules.

That is very true. If really only the ones who could possibly medal would be allowed at Olympics, or Worlds for that matter, it would do nothing else but kill skating in the countries where it's already dying out.
And yes, in other disciplines it's the other way around. It's just the way the Games go, the way sports go. We have to either deal with it or be miserable.

Mrs. P · Dec 21, 2013

SimplyLex said:
That is very true. If really only the ones who could possibly medal would be allowed at Olympics, or Worlds for that matter, it would do nothing else but kill skating in the countries where it's already dying out.
And yes, in other disciplines it's the other way around. It's just the way the Games go, the way sports go. We have to either deal with it or be miserable.

I don't think Michael Weiss is saying only those who can medal should go. He's saying that that the Japanese should be able to send a few extra entries that's all.

I sort of like the idea of a wildcard option. Most sports do it with their bowl/playoff selections, so why not skating.

coolboogie22 · Dec 21, 2013

That's enough if Daisuke doesn't skate enough for a medal at Japanese nationals that's prove that he isn't deserving that spot, only the best athlete should go to Sotchi. The Nationals is all the matter, so Hanyu, Machida and Kozuka deserve to be at Sotchi if they skate well in the FS and better than Daisuke.

If we would talk about Mirai Nagasu at this year nationals, if she finished off the top 3, the USFS will not send her for Sotchi and even if she has a lot of fan in the worlds that's is not a reason to send her. Figure skating should not select their skater by their popularity, they should select them by their performance. So, I would be really angry to see Daisuke at the Olympic if he finished off the podium at nationals and take a place of a skater who prove himself to be a contender for Sotchi.

If this happen, I would like to say that I want Mirai Nagasu in the olympic team if she is off the podium at nationals. Why giving a favor to Daisuke and not Mirai.

So, for me only the top 3 at nationals deserve to go at Sotchi.

cinnamon · Dec 21, 2013

MaiKatze said:
I don't think the Nationals are the most important event, the whole season before this has to count. I'm totally curious about the outcome. It is a fact that Daisuke is still suffering from his injury. I wouldn't count Daisuke out and say that he is over after this performance. He is not a Gold Medal favourite, but he has a chance of a medal in Sochi if he gets back to form. Even though Machida is performing great so far, I still think Daisuke has the highest scoring potential for Sochi (minus Yuzuru) and should go. I just cannot imagine Machida beating the likes of Chan on the big stage, while Daisuke proved before that he can do it. Mura we can count out now - and Oda is not favoured anymore. I think third spot depends on the outcome of the LP and is between Kozuka and Takahashi (with Machida and Hanyu as definites). I also think that maybe sending the men who couldn't make it to Sochi to Worlds and maybe becoming the World Champion in Japan would be a nice way to end the season without participating in the Olympics.

And just for me personally, as many have stated here, too: An Olympic figure skating Mens event without Daisuke Takahashi's last career ending performance - my excitement for this is very low.

Then if Daisuke won't do well in FS, he would be "the World Champion in Japan" - Oh...

SquishyDumpling · Dec 21, 2013

coolboogie22 said:
That's enough if Daisuke doesn't skate enough for a medal at Japanese nationals that's prove that he isn't deserving that spot, only the best athlete should go to Sotchi. The Nationals is all the matter, so Hanyu, Machida and Kozuka deserve to be at Sotchi if they skate well in the FS and better than Daisuke.

If we would talk about Mirai Nagasu at this year nationals, if she finished off the top 3, the USFS will not send her for Sotchi and even if she has a lot of fan in the worlds that's is not a reason to send her. Figure skating should not select their skater by their popularity, they should select them by their performance. So, I would be really angry to see Daisuke at the Olympic if he finished off the podium at nationals and take a place of a skater who prove himself to be a contender for Sotchi.

If this happen, I would like to say that I want Mirai Nagasu in the olympic team if she is off the podium at nationals. Why giving a favor to Daisuke and not Mirai.

So, for me only the top 3 at nationals deserve to go at Sotchi.

The selection for Japan's national team is different from the US though.

From Mrs.P:
The spots goes as follows:
1.) Winner of nationals
2.) 2nd at nationals/3rd at nationals/Highest GPF finisher
3.) 2nd at nationals/3rd at nationals/Upper 3 world standing/season's best. The exact language is: Those who leaked out from the selection of No. 2, the upper three Japanese in the world standing at the time of the ending of Japan nationals and the upper three Japanese of ISU season best score.

It would be wrong to send a skater that didn't podium at nationals if being top 3 at nationals was the only criteria, but that isn't the case for Japan. It's not like they are making a new rule to get Dai on the Olympic team if he doesn't podium.

SimplyLex · Dec 21, 2013

Mrs. P said:
I don't think Michael Weiss is saying only those who can medal should go. He's saying that that the Japanese should be able to send a few extra entries that's all.

I sort of like the idea of a wildcard option. Most sports do it with their bowl/playoff selections, so why not skating.

Yes, but if the Japanese were able to send more entries, some other countries would most likely lose theirs. The number of athletes allowed to enter is limited.
As for wildcards, they could be given based on what? highest score? best Olympic season results? best pre-Olympic Worlds results? I can see such a thing becoming quite a mess, tbh.

cinnamon · Dec 21, 2013

coolboogie22 said:
Figure skating should not select their skater by their popularity, they should select them by their performance. So, I would be really angry to see Daisuke at the Olympic if he finished off the podium at nationals and take a place of a skater who prove himself to be a contender for Sotchi.

Miki was sent like that once. But Japan has changed the selecting system and made it clear than before now.

dorispulaski · Dec 21, 2013

Mrs. P said:
I don't think Michael Weiss is saying only those who can medal should go. He's saying that that the Japanese should be able to send a few extra entries that's all.

I sort of like the idea of a wildcard option. Most sports do it with their bowl/playoff selections, so why not skating.

Yes, this is what I thought Michael meant-however it is also true that when one division is weak in US team sports, and another division is just packed, that there still can be teams that could make it through the initial rounds that don't get to go to the playoffs.

wonderlen3000 · Dec 21, 2013

I am sad for Oda and Dai, but its not over until its over. But realistically looking, Hanyu has a chance at OGM. Michida has a chance for a medal, at least a bronze. Oda can potentially get a bronze too. Dai has o% chance of getting a medal at this point as he can no longer fully rotate his jumps. He needs a clean SP and at least a clean quad + 7-8 triples in LP. Right now Dai is struggling to land even a clean 3+3 and his consistency on 3A has been going downhill. Honestly. he has a chance to get gold in 2010 and he gamble with his quad and lost it.

wordsworthgirl · Dec 21, 2013

wonderlen3000 said:
I am sad for Oda and Dai, but its not over until its over. But realistically looking, Hanyu has a chance at OGM. Michida has a chance for a medal, at least a bronze. Oda can potentially get a bronze too. Dai has o% chance of getting a medal at this point as he can no longer fully rotate his jumps. He needs a clean SP and at least a clean quad + 7-8 triples in LP. Right now Dai is struggling to land even a clean 3+3 and his consistency on 3A has been going downhill. Honestly. he has a chance to get gold in 2010 and he gamble with his quad and lost it.

This baffles me. At his last competition, NHK, Dai landed several clean quads and triple axels with no underrotation issues. He has been injured and will not be at top form in these Nationals.

Kalina · Dec 21, 2013

wordsworthgirl said:
This baffles me. At his last competition, NHK, Dai landed several clean quads and triple axels with no underrotation issues. He has been injured and will not be at top form in these Nationals.

Agree on the 3-3 and the 3A, those mistakes are unusual for him and surely due to his injury (and consequent lack of training). But his quads have been looking iffy for quite a while.
Seeing his interview after the short was awful, I don't think I've ever seen him look so dejected...

phaeljones · Dec 21, 2013

The scoring is rigged at these Nationals. I think most of us objectively looking at what is going on with the scoring of Kozuka and Daisuke's high PCs can see some real wonkiness there. Seriously, my jaw dropped when I saw Kozuka's skate knowing his score. Also, Machida was underscored. (I don't have any problem at all with Yuzuru's score, but I do think that Machida was underscored.) If it was rigged yesterday, it will be rigged tomorrow.

If they have made the decision already to send Daisuke, then they should withdraw him from tomorrow. He is injured. Give him his pass. No good can come from his skating tomorrow except the playing out of a bad charade and the dumbing down of the other skaters' scores, marks they have really skated hard to earn. Then let the other skaters skate their hearts out, knowing that there might be some legitimacy in their scores.

Really, there is a big big stink from what happened today. If JSF has made up its mind to put Dai on the team regardless of how he skates at Nationals, the worse way of going about it is the way that they have chosen to do it . . . by meddling with the judging. That really hurts the sport. It would have been better to just put him on the team and argue the case on its merits rather than destroy the merits of the scoring.

Scoring should never be dishonest.

YesWay · Dec 21, 2013

phaeljones said:
Seriously, my jaw dropped when I saw Kozuka's skate knowing his score.

Did you see Kozuka's face when he saw his score?

msteach3 · Dec 21, 2013

snowflake said:
Yusuru is just awesome. Could be I'm a bit bored to watch this SP, having seen it many times, but I think it was smart of him to keep it. He makes it look so easy and smooth. And the major part of the olympic audience has never seen it before

I never tire of watching Yuzu perform this SP. He has such command and confidence while skating it and it's so darn fun to watch. He's looking strong, fit and ready for Sochi. Can't wait for the showdown there! :popcorn:

pitterpatter · Dec 21, 2013

I hate to say it, but I really don't think Dai has clearly outperformed Oda this season, which is why i don't think he warrants leapfrogging over him if Oda places before him. Yes Dai is currently injured and this is his last season, but it may very well also be Oda's last season and Oda has performed consistently well at all three of his events. The scores at NHK (before Dai's recent injury) should've been closer I felt, especially with that dubious UR call on Oda's SP quad. In the free, Oda was only two points from winning the segment, despite a 10 pt disadvantage in PCS. Dai was much much better than at SA, but realistically, that performance was technically far from perfect, with a tripled second quad (and no 3T combo), and a botched second 3A (no 3T combo).

phaeljones said:
The scoring is rigged at these Nationals. I think most of us objectively looking at what is going on with the scoring of Kozuka and Daisuke's high PCs can see some real wonkiness there. Seriously, my jaw dropped when I saw Kozuka's skate knowing his score. Also, Machida was underscored. (I don't have any problem at all with Yuzuru's score, but I do think that Machida was underscored.) If it was rigged yesterday, it will be rigged tomorrow.

If they have made the decision already to send Daisuke, then they should withdraw him from tomorrow. He is injured. Give him his pass. No good can come from his skating tomorrow except the playing out of a bad charade and the dumbing down of the other skaters' scores, marks they have really skated hard to earn. Then let the other skaters skate their hearts out, knowing that there might be some legitimacy in their scores.

Really, there is a big big stink from what happened today. If JSF has made up its mind to put Dai on the team regardless of how he skates at Nationals, the worse way of going about it is the way that they have chosen to do it . . . by meddling with the judging. That really hurts the sport. It would have been better to just put him on the team and argue the case on its merits rather than destroy the merits of the scoring.

Scoring should never be dishonest.

Unfortunately there's some truth to this, although I don't know if they actually planned for this to happen. The top 3 have a significant lead and Oda's been pretty much shut out from the podium at this point. If Dai doesn't manage a good skate to get into third, whichever of Kozuka and Machida end up in 2nd will have the second spot and the 3rd place finisher can be bumped out for Dai (as Oda doesn't qualify under the other criteria even if he finishes 4th and Dai 5th).

Hoping Dai miraculously hits it out of the park and shows us all who's boss. I know he would firmly prefer to get to his dream olympic stage on his own strength rather than in this manner. I don't agree with skaters being sent based on reputation/popularity rather than performance, but it truly would be a shame not to see him there.

NMURA · Dec 21, 2013

If they really wanted to send Takahashi to Sochi, they wouldn't give 90+ to Kozuka with two errors. Takahashi's only visible error is a fall on 3A. Most of viewers would be more comfortable if Takahashi's score was a little higher than Kozuka. They could do that only if they apply NHK-standard ur calls and keep down Kozuka's PCS to what deserving for the #5 man. If Takahashi couldn't bounce back, he is out for sure. Kozuka's backing is formidable. Toyota (which he belongs), Nobuo Sato (the most influencial coach in Japan), IMG and now Fuji Television are supporting Kozuka.

The JSF expected Takahashi to be a backup medal contender in the case Hanyu (the new "ace" of Japan) failed to make the final flight (like last two worlds). But as we see the dismal conditions of Takahashi, Machida is the better option for that. His 4T is reliable enough and gained some solid reputations in this GP season. The third spot is open now. Takahashi should not be given privileged treatments when he is not the best (or even the second best) man.

Tonichelle · Dec 21, 2013

dorispulaski said:
Yes, this is what I thought Michael meant-however it is also true that when one division is weak in US team sports, and another division is just packed, that there still can be teams that could make it through the initial rounds that don't get to go to the playoffs.

exactly. or another division just flat sucks and so crappy teams make it into the first round of playoffs... which also makes for some easy first playoff wins for the team(s) that face them.

MeaganSkater · Dec 22, 2013

YesWay said:
Hanyu OMG O_O Shame that Nationals don't count for the record books - first over 100 points, gets to keep that record forever...

Keep calm Takahashi!

FYI, Patrick Chan earned 101.33 in his short at the 2012 Canadian Nationals. So I'm guessing he was the first person to get over 100 in the short.

NMURA · Dec 22, 2013

103.10 is a bit tough number to beat even for skate chanada.
He needs the PCS of 48.5 or more.

NMURA · Dec 22, 2013

aragray said:
i wonder how costly Kozuka's errors really were though.

As for TES, wait the protocols. My impression is that Kozuka's PCS is too high compared to Machida and Oda. Maybe skating order was used as an excuse to prop up his PCS. Kozuka is the lower ranked skater than Oda. His PCS is 3 points higher than what he actually deserves.

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