Daisuke instead of Takahiko - Fair decision or not ?

pangtongfan said:

IIRC Machida had a clean LP at the Grand Prix final and Oda did not, so I dont think Oda outskated him in the LP. Of course he finished higher in the LP, when he had been 3rd in the short and skated 3rd, and Machida after his awful short skated 1st (Oda's PCS in the LP skating later were much higher IIRC which is mainly why he came ahead). That is to be expected with that order unless Machida had blown Oda out of the water.

Machida won both his grand prix events, and Oda was unable to beat Hanyu (who didnt skate well at all) for 2nd at Skate Canada, or Takahashi (who had a great short and not great long) at NHK. So I would say Machida definitely did better in the grand prix except for the final.

Either way we agree there wouldnt be justification leaving Machida off either the Olympic or World team so it is moot. That was my only point, leaving Machida off either team after Nationals would be proposterous. Only the 3rd spot could possibly be switched within reason from one event to the other at this point.

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Machida LP TES at the GPF is only 88.07
Oda LP TES is 91.58 but with a massive fall.

Oda's GOE is unmatched by anyone else but Chan and Hanyu. I think his jumps look so amazing and should have the highest GOE, so I think he's underscored often.

I agree that Machida is the future and needs to be out more, but base on this season, Oda should be in higher consideration compare to Machida.

JFed used Koz to block Oda from getting that final spot reserved for Dai. Koz really shouldn't feel so bad, he was not skating well at all. It's not like he's bringing down the house and got the short end of the stick. He did badly, and is rightfully left at home.

FlattFan said:

Koz really shouldn't feel so bad, he was not skating well at all. It's not like he's bringing down the house and got the short end of the stick. He did badly, and is rightfully left at home.

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I strongly disagree.
He's been garnering huge praise for his skating skills, step sequences and overall fluidity and subtlety in his presentation for years by commentators. It seemed to me like the approach he had to his quad at these JN was way better than in the past. He beat both Oda and Takahashi, which isn't "doing it badly". Even Takahashi said that after the FS, he felt he had lost the chance to go to OG.

You're obviously free to have your opinion, but please stop writing one post after the other where you repeatedly bash a guy who just got his dream shattered. Thanks.

I hope that Daisuke will let Takahiko at least to replace him at worlds.
I wish so much that Takahiko go to Sochi, I don't find it fair to send Daisuke at Sochi.

When Sasha Cohen want to go to 2010 Vancouver the USFS doesn't have send her instead of Mirai Nagasu and an other example Plushenko who lost to Kovtun, the russian federation will not send Plushenko at Sochi even if he is really popular.

Daisuke taking the place of Takahiko is not fair to me.

I so love Daisuke that I can't judge objectively whether he or another fine skater should go to the Olympics. I hope that if Dai goes to the Olympics, though, Takahiko can go to Worlds. I still hold out hopes that Daisuke can even win the OGM. It's not impossible!

I don't think Dai's case is parallel to that of Sasha in 2010, though. Sasha had not been an actively competitive skater since 2006, and she decided to dust off her skates again and try for Vancouver in 2010. Dai has been competing at or near the top of the rankings solidly for the past four years, and he has helped assure Japan's reputation as a world power in men's skating.

It sucks that JSF didn't give the Worlds spot to Kozuka. That would've been a fair consolation prize and would've sent the message to skaters that Nationals does mean something. Sure, Takahashi might retire after Sochi and the Kozuka might get to go anyway, but it wouldn't be the same as earning the spot outright. And I have a feeling Takahashi won't retire, unless he gives a really bad performance at Sochi. It's his last Worlds and it's being held in Japan. I can see JSF pressuring him to stay on for the mad ticket $$$.

Panini said:

It sucks that JSF didn't give the Worlds spot to Kozuka. That would've been a fair consolation prize and would've sent the message to skaters that Nationals does mean something.

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Kozuka doesn't deserve 3rd place. He was just held up in order to displace Oda out of the podium in the case Takahashi could not catch up. I suspect Kozuka's SP score would be 85 not 90 points, if he skated before Takahashi. Since Oda is the real 3rd place, Kozuka should't be given a consolation prize (worlds). The bronze medal and 4CC are satisfactory enough.

NMURA said:

Kozuka doesn't deserve 3rd place. He was just held up in order to displace Oda out of the podium in the case Takahashi could not catch up. I suspect Kozuka's SP score would be 85 not 90 points, if he skated before Takahashi. Since Oda is the real 3rd place, Kozuka should't be given a consolation prize (worlds). The bronze medal and 4CC are satisfactory enough.

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That is totally it and, for me, this is the only reason I have a real problem with what happened. Kozuka's sp score was total bs. Propping one skater up is one thing but doing it for the sole purpose of kicking another skater (especially one of Oda's stature) down is repugnant.

Whether Takahashi should be on the team or not on the team is debatable. People can agree to disagree (I really have a problem with it but I can appreciate why he was chosen), but surely JSF did not have to go that extra distance and corrupt the scoring for the purpose of damaging a skater's, ie Oda's, standing (as opposed to the lesser evil, but still very much an evil, of propping a skater up).

Frenchie said:

You're obviously free to have your opinion, but please stop writing one post after the other where you repeatedly bash a guy who just got his dream shattered. Thanks.

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I get the disappointment of not able to go, but let's not make it out to be like he "deserved" it. No!
If you're talking about "deserving" the spot, it was Oda.

Koz was held up so he could be in third place.
Third place "deserved" to go.

Well, since you aren't worthy of the National podium to begin with, you don't deserve to go.

Who is the alternate for the Olympics? Dai seems vulnerable to injury and might have to withdraw.

Although I personally think Dai should not have gotten the spot, I can respect the reason why people think he does deserve it. However, I still don't think Dai deserves the Worlds spot. That spot should have gone to Oda, who performed consistently the whole GP season. Kozuka's GP season was too weak. But of course the Japanese Fed would have to give the spot to Dai due to his popularity in Japan... =(

He was just held up in order to displace Oda out of the podium in the case Takahashi could not catch up.
So this is accepted as fact now. And nothing is done about it because that's just how figure skating works? Honestly, it boggles my mind that figure skating is still allowed to call itself a sport.

Then Oda should've been given the consolation prize. Either way, Takahashi shouldn't have been given both spots, but JSF wants $$$ so what can you do.

pangtongfan said:

Probably if Worlds wasnt in Japan, Takahashi would have been given the Olympics and Oda the Worlds but reality is Worlds is in Japan, so....

Yes that Kozuka beat Oda strictly to justify Takahashi making the team is pretty much a commonly accepted fact. It seems everyone who watched the competition has come to that conclusion. Kozuka deserved 3rd in the short but with 2 significant mistakes was way overscored (and Oda even with his one huge points losing mistake way underscored) and Odas almost clean long program should have easily beaten Kozukas with several mistakes by many points, and come 3rd overall. Kozuka was never a threat to make the team himself, unless he skated lights out and beat Machida, but he was the pawn to justify the team they wanted.

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Not everyone. I think Kozuka was placed correctly.

pangtongfan said:

Yes that Kozuka beat Oda strictly to justify Takahashi making the team is pretty much a commonly accepted fact. It seems everyone who watched the competition has come to that conclusion.

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Wow, after a few days of calm on that front, you guys have suddenly felt the need to warm this up again?

- I don't agree with that commonly accepted fact.
- I watched the competition and have not come to that conclusion. The fact that I'm not included in "everyone" is really affecting my self esteem.
- Please be real: Even if Nobunari Oda had finished 3rd in the Japanese Nationals, the Japanese Federation would still have chosen Takahashi. For the same reasons as they did now.
- For the last time (from me, then I let you post the subjective unfounded stuff you want): Kozuka had a SP of the highest standard with 2 deductions of ca. 2 pts each. Oda's one mistake, as you called it, forced him to do another minor jump, so in the end, he had 2 big mistakes in his SP (3T with an ugly landing and 3Lz2T).
- Just to make it clear: I'm a fan of all 3 skaters and knew before the JN that I'd be really sad for 1 or 2 of them. What I take issue with is the need to bash the guy who probably spent the last week depressed sitting in the dark again and again and again when he rightfully finished 3rd at these JN.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkS3Pyfa1NM

I think Kozuka was placed correctly too. His BV was about the same as Oda thanks to the tripled quad of Oda.

While Oda was low balled on PCS in the SP he also tripled a quad there and as such had to do a triple-double, leaving 9 points on the table, whereas Kozuka at least rotated his all jumps even if with errors. Even with the same PCS in each program as Kozuka, he still would have lost by 2 points.

chloepoco said:

Such a sweet thought from Misha Ge's tweet:

Misha Ge @Sk8Prince

"Its same time happy for team JP Mens who go to Olympic but sad for friends who are not going "Can they come to Olympic as extra?

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That is so nice. I do feel for Oda and Kozuka. I do like Dai's skatingbest but somehow this seems a little cold and unfair. But it depends who you are cheering for. I do think it is a bit sad or unfair that Dai gets to do oly's and world's. I know this is mean but how would you feel if Dai wins and not only gets the glory but the endorsements and adoration while you are working in some factory making Hello Kitty dolls or whatever? Oda and Kozuka are too classy to say how they really feel. This decisions could have huge ramifications for not only Dai and Kozuka and Oda but others including Hanyu, Chan, Fernandez,Ten et al but such is life it is a dog eat dog world. Can you imagine the media frenzy if Dai wins from off the team to Oly gold. CAn you imagine the real pain for Oda and Kozuka let alone the silver and bronze medallist. But that's life.

pangtongfan said:

Well that is typical of Chan, the most held up skater in skating history, almost anywhere, so I can see not reading too much into Canadian advantage for that. Although you are right, judging in Canada tends to be just as bad as Russia. Russia after this years COR is the only country that can even rival Canada in that regard.

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I totally disagree. The most held up skater is Carolina Kostner. Her skating skills while excellent do not match the equivalency of Chan and truly she has had some abysmal skates. When she implodes she loses the fire unlike Patrick.

Jedi said:

That is so nice. I do feel for Oda and Kozuka. I do like Dai's skatingbest but somehow this seems a little cold and unfair. But it depends who you are cheering for. I do think it is a bit sad or unfair that Dai gets to do oly's and world's. I know this is mean but how would you feel if Dai wins and not only gets the glory but the endorsements and adoration while you are working in some factory making Hello Kitty dolls or whatever? Oda and Kozuka are too classy to say how they really feel. This decisions could have huge ramifications for not only Dai and Kozuka and Oda but others including Hanyu, Chan, Fernandez,Ten et al but such is life it is a dog eat dog world. Can you imagine the media frenzy if Dai wins from off the team to Oly gold. CAn you imagine the real pain for Oda and Kozuka let alone the silver and bronze medallist. But that's life.

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On the flip side, can you imagine the pressure on Takahashi to perform at least reasonably well at Sochi? Can you imagine if he puts out a similar LP and falls out of top 10?

I don't think Oda and Kozuka will be working in some factory making Hello Kitty dolls or whatever. They won't be making mega Yens like Takahashi but with their accomplishments, they will likely have lucrative opportunities and make respectable contributions to the sport. They are Japanese, not Canadians.

What do you think will be the huge ramifications on those non Japanese skaters you mentioned?

Whatever happened regarding the merits of the skates (ie whether it was Kozuka or Ota who should have had third), there was definitely judging malfeasance against Oda on the short and earlier in the year at NHK, and it was not gratuitous malfeasance (ie it was done for a purpose). It was blatantly obvious that Kozuka's sp score was bumped up. One (Kozuka's) was bumped up where needed and the other's (Oda's) suppressed where needed. (If Takahashi had skated so as to blow the roof off there would have been no tinkering required. As it was, they took out the sledgehammer on the first day.) Kozuka pulled himself up in the LP, but surely anyone with a human dimension to their soul would seriously wonder what kind of irreparable harm had been created by the first day. Let's apply some eq here. HEY! That smack-down of Oda was blatant.

Surely no one is suggesting that Oda had a chance of getting third no matter how well he skated? He was off the table. If Kozuka skated well, they did not have to do anything. If Kozuka cacked, they propped him up. He could not lose. After the first day, why would Oda even show up except to show that he has more class than the JSF? It has to be difficult to skate with your head up under those circumstances after being publicly betrayed by your own skating federation.

His quitting when he did showed class and dignity, but it is also a pretty damning statement against his federation and the infrastructure of the sport in general.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

I'm not the only person who agrees that Chan deserved to win the LP. And it is a total lie to suggest that I keep mentioning this "8 times a day minimum" when I haven't even mentioned it 8 times to begin with....... unlike you taking every opportunity even on the most unrelated threads to bash Chan's 3 World titles, and fallaciously say he wins with 5 falls. Although hypocrisy is probably the least of your innumerable grievances.

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I think Chan winning with falls is an outcome, right or wrong of COP people. And really his skating skills is that or are that much better than everyone else's even when he skate's poorly this also benefits his GOE's - read the rules - entrances, exits etc all add to GOE so yes it is double dipping but he should pick up marks. Break down the scoring - certainly the falls will hurt what is kind of scare folks is we on this site are suppose to be the knowledgeable figure skating fans - the rest of the world will just see falls and they have no idea about quality of skating,edges etc. They have no idea why a triple lutz is far h arder than a triple toe or how a triple lutz cannot lead immediately into an axel. This is why I can also see how B and S of Russia beat Sale and Pelletier back then the rule was artistry broke the tie so if you had Canada first and Russia second technically but reversed it artistically well there you have it. But back to whether this is a fair decision of Da over Takahiko I guess it depends on who you favour.

Chan did not win by falling this season. In fact, so far this season, he has fallen 0 time but did not win every time. On the other hand, Hanyu has fallen at every major competition, both internationally and nationally, on his way to break World Guiness record and winning twice. Everyone know it has a lot to do with over 2/3 of ISU sponsors are Japanese corporations - a fact easily checked by picking out the names of these sponsors as they are prominently featured in each ISU event page and on the boards around the rinks. The amount of money they inject to the sport is such that like it or not, it makes a lot of business sense to see the Japanese skaters doing very well. Therefore, intentionally or not, they receive a major boost especially when the competition is in Japan. It wasn't just Hanyu. If you look at Mao Asada's skate at the GPF, the monstrous scores she received for an error-filled Free Skate - not just small errors either - is turning the ladies competition into a farce. Mao is not skating any better than 2 years ago, where she struggled to break 110 in Free Skate - her Triple Axel is still not consistent, no Triple Lutz, continuous UR of jumps, including doubles. What has changed in 2 years, to suddenly go from 110 to 130+? Nothing has changed - just different costume and music. Not surprisingly, Japan also receives a disproportional amount of ISU events every single year. Can anyone recall a year where the GPF and Worlds take place in the same country? From 2013 to 2014, Japan has hosted or will host : Four Continents Championships, GPF, World Championships, not counting NHK, Japan Open, WTT.

To be clear, this has nothing to do with the Japanese skaters, they are just hard working athletes doing their best. Unfortunately, we live in a world where money is king and most things are inherently unfair. With the ISU struggling badly for money, Japan's influence on the ISU has grown exponentially. Therefore, the decision to pick Takahashi over Kozuka needs to be viewed not only for a merit standpoint but also a business standpoint. What makes the most business sense knowing how important sponsorship,viewership and ultimately the publicity& money affects Figure Skating? When one answers that question, the decision to pick Takahashi becomes a non-brainer.