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Thread: Daisuke instead of Takahiko - Fair decision or not ?

  1. #31
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Russia looks for nationals and europeans. If Plushenko fail at nationals, he will go to euro and need good skate there. Then Sochi. If both fail, no Sochi. National competition is not all. Japan federation always made clear.
    If Chan place 5th at nationals he 100% deserve olympics. National is only one competition.

  2. #32
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    I think they all had an idea of what the rules were like and what they had to do, so in that sense it's fair. There's a lot of logic behind not making the Nationals the end-all be-all, so as long as the skaters are well aware that that's the case, it's fair. However, I wish the system factored in consistency with a measure other than world rank, so Oda would be considered.

    it's crazy that someone with 3 90+ TES FS scores and a podium at every event but Nats isn't going. I think with a different judging panel, he could have won NHK Trophy and the bronze medal here, which really makes me feel for him even more, since that would have improved his position.

    But I can't get really get riled up because all 3 skaters are 100% worthy of going in terms of skills.

  3. #33
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    My main problem with the criteria that it rewarded certain parts of past performances while completely ignoring other ones.

    For example, why are the top 3 in WR/SB considered but yet only the No. 1 at GPF is considered?

    WR is also bogus for the reasons pointed out earlier. Oda was doomed there because of injuries that basically took him out in the second half of the 2011-2012 season and hampered him in 2012-2013. This was the first year Oda was injury free.

    It's worth noting that in the season's world ranking, Noburnari is No. 2. Even if you take out the senior B he did (and the others), he would have been No. 3 behind Patrick and Yuzuru. Daisuke is No. 15.

    Another worth noting is total scores.
    Nobuanri scores: 262.98 (Nebelhorn)/233.00 (Skate Canada)/253.16 (NHK Trophy)/255.96 (GPF) Average: 251.28
    Tatsuki scores: 226.21 (Asian Open Trophy) 265.38 (Skate America)/257.00(Cup of Russia)/236.03 (GPF)
    Average: 246.16
    Daisuke: 236.21 (Skate America)/268.31 (NHK Trophy)
    Average: 252.26

    Daisuke has the edge, but barely and because of his scores at NHK.

    What's even more telling is the FS scores:

    Nobunari: 152.18 (73.32 TES) (Skate Canada)/170.46 (88.62 TES) (NHK Trophy)/ 175.02 (91.58 TES)/(GPF)
    Tatsuki: 174.20 (90.84 TES) (Skate America)/ 172.10 (89.60 TES) (Rostelecom Cup)/170.37 (88.07 TES) (GPF)
    Daisuke: 159.12 (72.40 TES) (Skate America/ 172.76 (81.52 TES) (NHK Trophy)

    Yes, Daisuke has the PCS scores to bail him out that neither Tatsuki or Nobunari has, but ultimately if he does not have the TES, the PCS only takes him so far, as we saw at Worlds in 2013.

    So yes by the criteria Daisuke being chosen was fine, but it was clear they definitely did the cafeteria method as far as what factors were the most important.

    This totally pains me to say because i'm glad that Daisuke is going to Sochi for more sentimental reasons and I love his skating. However, from a "was this fair" standpoint, that is where I stand.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    But why is it different? Because Japan is a "friendly" country to the West? Because Takahashi is more loved?
    In terms of why I think Russian judging is more corrupt, 4 words: Cup of Russia 2013.

    What I was saying is that Dai and Plu are both revered in their respective countries. So much so that if a supposedly honourable country like Japan sends their 5th place finisher to Sochi, then one can imagine that Russian Nationals is hardly a team selection so much as an exhibition where as long as Plushenko stays on his feet, he'll likely be selected for Sochi - or at the least, Euros. Like, if Plushenko is 4th, will one of the top 3 guys be denied a Euros entry (and essentially their shot at Sochi)?

  5. #35
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Regarding the Olympic team, I think sending Takahashi is fine. The 'fairest' thing, IMO, would have been to send Oda, because he was the most consistent out of the 3rd spot trio. But then again, it's always about who has the highest scoring potential too, and that's clearly Takahashi.
    My problem lies with the world team though. Another skate off for the Sochi team would be a good idea in general, but with 4CC so close to the Olympics it would have been way to tough on the skaters. But they could have used 4CC and Sochi as additional showings to determine the worlds team. I'm so sad for Oda, because the JSF really seemed to try their best to keep him off the team. And then Kozuka, who had such a bad start and came fighting back at nationals. People are repeating again and again how Takahashi couldn't do his best because of his injury, but Kozuka is dealing with a severe injury too. So if that's any excuse for Takahashi, it should be able to count as an excuse for Kozukas bad GP showings too. At the end, it would be yet another reason to send Oda to Sochi. He's healthy.

    Additionally, I get all the 'Yay, Dai has been chosen!' hype, but I actually didn't like the audience reaction that much. Of course everyone is allowed to suppoert whoever they want to, but it makes me even more heart-broken for Oda and Kozuka. It's a little like saying "See, if you just would have been more popular, we might have actually rewarded you for your work". Seeing Kozuka cry in that interview later didn't help

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Regarding the Olympic team, I think sending Takahashi is fine. The 'fairest' thing, IMO, would have been to send Oda, because he was the most consistent out of the 3rd spot trio. But then again, it's always about who has the highest scoring potential too, and that's clearly Takahashi.
    My problem lies with the world team though. Another skate off for the Sochi team would be a good idea in general, but with 4CC so close to the Olympics it would have been way to tough on the skaters. But they could have used 4CC and Sochi as additional showings to determine the worlds team. I'm so sad for Oda, because the JSF really seemed to try their best to keep him off the team. And then Kozuka, who had such a bad start and came fighting back at nationals. People are repeating again and again how Takahashi couldn't do his best because of his injury, but Kozuka is dealing with a severe injury too. So if that's any excuse for Takahashi, it should be able to count as an excuse for Kozukas bad GP showings too. At the end, it would be yet another reason to send Oda to Sochi. He's healthy.

    Additionally, I get all the 'Yay, Dai has been chosen!' hype, but I actually didn't like the audience reaction that much. Of course everyone is allowed to suppoert whoever they want to, but it makes me even more heart-broken for Oda and Kozuka. It's a little like saying "See, if you just would have been more popular, we might have actually rewarded you for your work". Seeing Kozuka cry in that interview later didn't help
    I totally agree. That must have been heartwrenching for Kozuka to know that he placed top 3 and yet the crowd was thrilled that he would not be going to Sochi in favour of Dai. It is rubbing it in his face that he's only not going to Sochi because of Dai's popularity.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I totally agree. That must have been heartwrenching for Kozuka to know that he placed top 3 and yet the crowd was thrilled that he would not be going to Sochi in favour of Dai. It is rubbing it in his face that he's only not going to Sochi because of Dai's popularity.
    It is not popularity only. Constellation was convenient for Japan federation to send Takahashi, and it was their wish, but to say it only due to Takahasi popularity is too easy.

  8. #38
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    Such a sweet thought from Misha Ge's tweet:

    Misha Ge @Sk8Prince

    "Its same time happy for team JP Mens who go to Olympic but sad for friends who are not going :( "Can they come to Olympic as extra?

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    To my mind, it's pretty disgusting that Oda wasn't even CONSIDERED, given his GPF bronze!

  10. #40
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    I am sad for Kozuka. Even though I've been a Daisuke fan longer, I wanted Kozuka to be on the team.

    So the JSF sends Daisuke instead, and I have to ask--what's the point/purpose? Daisuke is simply no longer at his physical peak. He's an amazing performer, but even his programs this season are lacking something. So you send him to the Olympics so that he can do...what? Because Daisuke fans really want to see him struggle as he did at 2013 Worlds and fail to make the podium? That was painful.

    Yes, there's a slim chance that he can keep it together and podium, but it's very slim. I get that Daisuke and his fans want to see him finish his skating career on a high note in Sochi. But while the JSF giving him this Olympic spot means hope stays alive and we will see him finish his career in Sochi, it may not be with performances that make anyone happy.

  11. #41
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    Can someone update me on Dai's recent injury?

    In terms of pure potentials, Dai has a shot at the podium more than any of Japanese guys apart from maybe Hanyu, and he is a corner stone to this sport with an incredible on ice presence despite handicapped with the crap by Nicols/Morozov he has had these past 2 seasons. I can't imagine an Olympics men's competition without Dai, it would be like having no salt my soup, just too much butter and unsavory pepper.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Additionally, I get all the 'Yay, Dai has been chosen!' hype, but I actually didn't like the audience reaction that much. Of course everyone is allowed to suppoert whoever they want to, but it makes me even more heart-broken for Oda and Kozuka. It's a little like saying "See, if you just would have been more popular, we might have actually rewarded you for your work". Seeing Kozuka cry in that interview later didn't help
    Yes well, the crowd at Japanese Nationals was full of Dai fans. With this being Daisuke's last Nationals, they probably rushed to buy the tickets. No wonder the reaction.

  13. #43
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    I think Daisuke was gifted and Kozuka used as a buffer against Oda. However, I don't think Kozuka's performance was strong enough to have him as a clear favorite against Daisuke. At the end of the day, both of them have been out of form due to injury this season. Kozuka hasn't been able to regain the form he showed at Worlds 2011. Daisuke is inconsistent but he's shown flashes of brilliance over the past three years such as the first GPF gold for a Japanese man. He's performed well in major competitions and has very strong PCS to fall back on.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    To my mind, it's pretty disgusting that Oda wasn't even CONSIDERED, given his GPF bronze!
    To me, that's the craziest part. He clearly won bronze at the biggest annual event other than Worlds (and the Olympics this year), and he was immediately brushed aside. At least he has the bronze to end his career on if that's how it goes, or maybe even a 4CC win if he goes there. I would love for him to go to Worlds but I imagine if Dai doesn't go, Kozuka will get that spot. It's a shame. At least he goes for 2 quads in his FS and he has had some really strong FS performances this year, of anyone, not just the Japanese men.

  15. #45
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    To me, that's the craziest part. He clearly won bronze at the biggest annual event other than Worlds (and the Olympics this year), and he was immediately brushed aside. At least he has the bronze to end his career on if that's how it goes, or maybe even a 4CC win if he goes there. I would love for him to go to Worlds but I imagine if Dai doesn't go, Kozuka will get that spot. It's a shame. At least he goes for 2 quads in his FS and he has had some really strong FS performances this year, of anyone, not just the Japanese men.
    I hope he gets the win at 4CC! He actually won the 4CC title his first year in seniors 2005-2006, which was also a consolation prize because he basically zayaked his way out of the Olympic spot. It would be an interesting, if not maddening, bookend to his career.

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