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Thread: Daisuke instead of Takahiko - Fair decision or not ?

  1. #46
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    According to an article, the committee based the decision on world ranking and season best. No surprise there.
    It was also a unanimous decision by the committee to send Dai. Kobayashi justified the decision by mentioning Dai's win at NHK. Of course. Plus she believes Dai would have been fully recovered by Sochi. As for not selecting Kozuka, she said Kozuka stated a little late this season (I guess she's referring to his poor GP performance and then now placing 3rd at Nationals), and other reasons which she did not disclose.
    Well I think a late start is better than Dai's downhill performance since Sochi is still a little less than 2 months away. But then again, who knows if each of their performances is a fluke. So I guess it's fair to base their decision on potential.
    I think they're not even considering Oda because it was due to Dai withdrawing from GPF that Oda was able to compete. So if they're considering that Dai qualified to GPF, then they cannot consider Oda 'qualifying' to GPF regardless of his results.

  2. #47
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    It's really a pity that Okinawa is no longer independent. Otherwise, Japan could toss their 4th to 6th-ranked skaters over and say "compete for Okinawa" - this failure to remain independent cost Oda and Kozuka their Sochi berths.

  3. #48
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    Firstly, I think there's tons of men in Japan that would deserve to go based on their results (compared to some other country's guys...) but unfortunately the system is what it is (in good and bad).

    Secondly, as a federation I would make the selection rules so that I would be able to send the 3 best men who have the most potential to score big and place high.

    Therefore I think (and this is obviously my opinion) it would be totally crazy to base the selection just by one competition. That said I get that it's clear and simple and at least measures ones capability under pressure. But anyone can have a bad competition for various reasons (injury, meltdown, infamous boot problems...). The more fair way for me is to let them compete during the season (and prior) and base the selections more on those. And if everything goes perfectly, the same men dominate in both.

    Also, I think it's logical and fair to also have them compete at nationals. For obvious reasons, it's a competition were they determine the champions of that year. And like at world's etc. you only get one chance. And that should be clear of judging manipulation for desired results because the nationals should carry a high value on it's one. Therefore clearly (assuming judging was accurate) Yuzu was fair champion, Machida fair silver medalist and Kozu fair bronze medalist.

    Also, it makes sense to have the champion be selected for the team. Whoever it is has made his mark. Also it gives the possibility to those who have not succeeded in gp series (because of injury, slow peeker etc) have their chance to show their capability at nationals. That means the winner or also 2nd/3rd could have a chance to go. That it then up to the wiser to decide based on rankings etc. Obviously, this allows more debate and cries for injustice, but makes more sense when you think the best for worlds (or O's).

    The added pressure on nationals if it's the only selection base I think only backfires when thinking of the country's benefits (and athlete's). I've understood that the pressure can be so much that it become's the biggest thing for the season which can be left with athlete's running on empty afterwards. And the biggest target should be the W's/O's. Also it would give the athlete's sense of security (have they done good earlier in the season) and therefore train more towards peeking at the biggest event. Obviously those who haven't done great have more pressure, but at least they also still have a shot making it.

    Having said all that the decision for Japanese skaters make total sense to me. Yuzu won and has succeeded previously and Machida also had a good season and succeeded at nationals. Dai didn't do well at nationals but based on overall season (and potential to actually be at the very top) he gets to go. Unfortunately Takahito wasn't that great during gp and also didn't do that great at N's as to assume he could really be a podium contender. Same with Oda, he was good not great during gp and also at N's. So it's sad for them of course but they really had their chance to show their potential.

    With the ladies, it was simpler. Akiko won and did good in gp, Mao did great at gp and Kanako showed at N's she should go.

  4. #49
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    Ugh. This thread kills my mood. And many of you are acting like Kozuka has never gone to the Olympics before. Also, I would think that the "Olympic Dream" applies to most athletes at the Olympic level.

    Am I heartbroken that Taka didn't make the team? Absolutely. I always hoped that the 2010 brOTP3 would reunite and be able to go again in 2014. Sigh, I hope Taka can stick around until 2018. I would love for him to have an Akiko Suzuki or Shizuka Arakawa moment.

  5. #50
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    I question whether Dai will be 100%. And if he isn't - it's sad that they're sending him because of past performances.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketry View Post
    it's crazy that someone with 3 90+ TES FS scores and a podium at every event but Nats isn't going. I think with a different judging panel, he could have won NHK Trophy and the bronze medal here, which really makes me feel for him even more, since that would have improved his position.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    My main problem with the criteria that it rewarded certain parts of past performances while completely ignoring other ones.

    For example, why are the top 3 in WR/SB considered but yet only the No. 1 at GPF is considered?

    WR is also bogus for the reasons pointed out earlier. Oda was doomed there because of injuries that basically took him out in the second half of the 2011-2012 season and hampered him in 2012-2013. This was the first year Oda was injury free.

    It's worth noting that in the season's world ranking, Noburnari is No. 2. Even if you take out the senior B he did (and the others), he would have been No. 3 behind Patrick and Yuzuru. Daisuke is No. 15.
    I agree with these.

    As a fan, I'm happy to see Dai go, but from a fairness standpoint, I'm not sure if he's really done well enough this season to deserve being sent regardless of what happens at Nationals, which is pretty much what happened here. While he draws in fans and has been a trailblazer in the sport, the spots should be awarded from a results and performance standpoint. Oda had a terrific season and has consistently delivered, and Kozuka pulled it out at the competition where it was supposed to count, despite also being injured. There's the argument that Dai deserves to go because its his last Olympics, but it's the same case for Oda and likely also Kozuka... (who'd be 28 in 2018!). After watching Kozuka's heartbreaking interview and Oda skate his heart out all season long, I just don't buy that either of these guys want it or deserve it any less than Dai. They're all very much qualified and able to fight for a podium position, so it should've been who delivered on the day.

  7. #52
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    Why are people arguing?

    JSF doesn't use the USFA selection process which is to send the top 3. JSF selects Olympians by their overall results. They have different rules.

    What's the problem?

    Dai is my favorite, and if JSF used the same criteria as USFA and left him off the team due to being off the podium at Nationals, I'd have been OK with it. I would have been very sad, but I would have accepted it.

    You can argue that JSF's rules suck, but these are the current rules. It's correct within the current official system.

    I would rather that an overall superior skater, based on consistent past results, gets the spot than a one-hit wonder who did well at Nationals. Not saying that Kozuka is a one-hit wonder - he simply hasn't done as well as Dai. 3rd at Natls still is still not a good enough argument. Perhaps if he is the current Japanese National Champion.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolboogie22 View Post
    But, to me if Daisuke doesn't skate enough for a medal at Japanese nationals that's prove that he isn't deserving that spot, only the best athlete should go to Sochi. The Nationals is all the matter, so Hanyu, Machida and Kozuka deserve more to be at Sochi.

    If we would talk about Mirai Nagasu at this year nationals, if she finished off the top 3, the USFS will not send her for Sochi and even if she has a lot of fan in the worlds that's is not a good reason to send her. Figure skating should not select their skater by their popularity, they should select them by their performance. So, I'm really angry to see Daisuke getting that spot for the Olympic and take a place of a skater who prove himself to be a contender for Sochi.
    Okay. You know what? Stop.

    The JSF does not have the same rules as the USFS, so it's absolutely and utterly pointless to compare the two. If you want to say that Takahiko was snubbed due to other reasons, fine. But using two different sets of criteria from two different countries to apply to your argument is like comparing orange juice to chicken.

    The United States should not be the ideal standard for everything. As a side note, if your plate of fried whatevertheheckyou'reeating is smothered in copious amounts of oil, we will probably try to invade your plate. I would not recommend that other countries try to follow that example.

    Also, while Daisuke could very well have been chosen for his popularity, you cannot ignore the other achievements he has over Takahiko which led to his popularity in the first place.

  9. #54
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    It sounds like Kozuka will continue at least past this season, though he will be 28 by the time the next Olympics come around. He also postponed a hip surgery to prepare for these Olympics, and if he decides on the surgery after this season, who knows if he will recover enough to contend in the future. Oda I think has said he wouldn't continue past this season.

    Fair or not, this whole situation is heartbreaking for both Kozuka and Oda. What's done is done though, and I hope that things will change after Sochi that will allow at least one (if not both) of them to compete at Worlds.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftertherain View Post
    Okay. You know what? Stop.

    The JSF does not have the same rules as the USFS, so it's absolutely and utterly pointless to compare the two. If you want to say that Takahiko was snubbed due to other reasons, fine. But using two different sets of criteria from two different countries to apply to your argument is like comparing orange juice to chicken.

    The United States should not be the ideal standard for everything. As a side note, if your plate of fried whatevertheheckyou'reeating is smothered in copious amounts of oil, we will probably try to invade your plate. I would not recommend that other countries try to follow that example.

    Also, while Daisuke could very well have been chosen for his popularity, you cannot ignore the other achievements he has over Takahiko which led to his popularity in the first place.
    You must be really hungry Those food analogies! Otherwise, well-said.

  11. #56
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    Takahashi is over the hill, he was held up at NHK over Oda and won, but here Kozuka clearly outskated him and they couldn't prop him up. If JSF thinks Takahashi is going to have some peak performance at Sochi then they are clearly delusional. I never understood this Takahashi artistry anyway, each time I see his programs all I can think of are wriggling worms because that's what I see from him 99% of the time. Just a bunch of hip shaking and hair flipping choreography. I cannot believe Kozuka, the most refined male skater out there even more than Chan will be out of a competition that suppose to showcase the best skaters in the world.

  12. #57
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    ^I am confused here so who are you angry with. (1) Dai for being selected to the team or (2) JSF for the selection.

    I hope that it is no. 2 and this thread does not turn into a lynch mob against Dai. Just sayin.....

  13. #58
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    Reviewing the JSF selection criteria, we must draw a conclusion that Takahashi was chosen beforehand, no matter how.

    (1) National Champion
    (2) 2nd place or the highest podium finisher at GPF
    (3) Daisuke Takahashi

    When Kozuka was given 90+ points in the SP, I thought they were going to choose Kozuka who has very strong political backing in Japan. But it was just a precaution to exclude Oda out of the podium. Oda needed to medal otherwise he was out instantly. Since Takahashi's conditions are worse than expected, it would be difficult to justify Takahashi's case if Oda placed 3rd place. The Olympic spot was given to Takahashi anyway. They are using the (home cooked) score at NHK Trophy to defend Takahashi. Even so, many people would consider that the world spot should be given to Kozuka. I expect Takahashi "concedes" it in due time, willingly or unwillingly.

  14. #59
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    My dislike of Takahashi would have been irrelevant if he had skated well at this event. I wouldn't have said a word against him because clean Takahashi vs. clean Kozuka would always have Takahashi on top even if I have the opposite opinion. I'm more frustrated at JSF. I would have accepted gladly if it was Oda that received the third spot but Takahashi, that I cannot understand.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    I expect Takahashi "concedes" it in due time, willingly or unwillingly.
    You mean just like you (strongly) expected Akiko Suzuki to be thrown aside in favor of Satoko Miyahara for the Olympic team?

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