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Thread: Daisuke instead of Takahiko - Fair decision or not ?

  1. #76
    I'm gonna Customize the CRAP out of this Title!!! Frenchie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    my statement stands that Machida technically has not outskated Machida all season long
    One rarely outskates oneself! Ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
    One rarely outskates oneself! Ever!
    Opps.....too much brain missing. Thanks.

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    I wish it was Taka over Machida but Dai going is very fair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftertherain View Post
    Chan is one skater.

    Cup of Russia was one event with four disciplines, with multiple skaters in each discipline.

    You do the math.
    Precisely, Julia, B/S, and a slew of other skaters were held up.

    Sure Chan has had favouritism at a couple events but when he has made errors his PCS has always gone down. Julia, B/S (at COR) and Hanyu (at GPF) are currently the worst examples of inflated scoring and home favouritism as they actually got personal best PCS with falls. Chan never got a personal best when he fell. Chan certainly never got 195 points (as Yuzu got) on home ice when he's had a fall. And certainly not PCS of 94.70 with 4 errors as Dai got.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Oda outskated him both the FS and SP (and obviously overall) at GPF. In fact, he beat Machida in the FS by five points. That was their only head-to-head face up leading to Nationals.

    It's not accurate to say to Machida beat him all season long when they only competed face-to-face once this season prior to nationals. Their total scores have been comparable all season long, in fact when you average their GP performances, their scores are not that far apart. Oda got 247.33 vs 249.47 for Tatsuki.

    Oda also had a slight edge in SP average in GP events with an 81.49 average versus Machida's average of 80.58. Of course Machida highest score (91.18) is well above Oda's (82+), though one could argue that with a different panel Oda would have received a 90+ score at NHK.

    In the FS, Machida has the edge with a 172.22 vs 167.88 for Oda. Oda's average of course is due to a poor, relatively speaking , FS at Skate Canada, just as Machida's average in the SP down due to his poor GPF SP.

    Point is...Machida was not far and beyond above Oda leading up to Nationals, score wise.

    But that said Machida, did outskate him at Nationals, so yes his Olympic spot is very much deserved as his Worlds spot. My dispute is more for the criteria that clearly favored one skater over another and doesn't quite reflect how the skaters actually performed this season.

    ETA: I get that in general you support Oda had the results at nationals been different, but my statement stands that Machida technically has not outskated Oda all season long since in their one face-to-face matchup Oda beat him in both segements and overall.
    The above isn't argument for Machida not going to worlds. Machida bombed the short program at GPF and I suspect that lead to lower pcs. But on the regular GP he was skating the best of all the Japanese men. His quad is more consistent than Oda's. I expect Machida to have some nerves too.

    I don't think sending Oda to worlds over Machida would be smart. Machida will be around next year and I suspect right now its just a matter of him getting experience and in front of international judges more-and those PCS of his will rise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    IIRC Machida had a clean LP at the Grand Prix final and Oda did not, so I dont think Oda outskated him in the LP. Of course he finished higher in the LP, when he had been 3rd in the short and skated 3rd, and Machida after his awful short skated 1st (Oda's PCS in the LP skating later were much higher IIRC which is mainly why he came ahead). That is to be expected with that order unless Machida had blown Oda out of the water.

    Machida won both his grand prix events, and Oda was unable to beat Hanyu (who didnt skate well at all) for 2nd at Skate Canada, or Takahashi (who had a great short and not great long) at NHK. So I would say Machida definitely did better in the grand prix except for the final.

    Either way we agree there wouldnt be justification leaving Machida off either the Olympic or World team so it is moot. That was my only point, leaving Machida off either team after Nationals would be proposterous. Only the 3rd spot could possibly be switched within reason from one event to the other at this point.
    Machida LP TES at the GPF is only 88.07
    Oda LP TES is 91.58 but with a massive fall.

    Oda's GOE is unmatched by anyone else but Chan and Hanyu. I think his jumps look so amazing and should have the highest GOE, so I think he's underscored often.

    I agree that Machida is the future and needs to be out more, but base on this season, Oda should be in higher consideration compare to Machida.

    JFed used Koz to block Oda from getting that final spot reserved for Dai. Koz really shouldn't feel so bad, he was not skating well at all. It's not like he's bringing down the house and got the short end of the stick. He did badly, and is rightfully left at home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Koz really shouldn't feel so bad, he was not skating well at all. It's not like he's bringing down the house and got the short end of the stick. He did badly, and is rightfully left at home.
    I strongly disagree.
    He's been garnering huge praise for his skating skills, step sequences and overall fluidity and subtlety in his presentation for years by commentators. It seemed to me like the approach he had to his quad at these JN was way better than in the past. He beat both Oda and Takahashi, which isn't "doing it badly". Even Takahashi said that after the FS, he felt he had lost the chance to go to OG.

    You're obviously free to have your opinion, but please stop writing one post after the other where you repeatedly bash a guy who just got his dream shattered. Thanks.

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    I hope that Daisuke will let Takahiko at least to replace him at worlds.
    I wish so much that Takahiko go to Sochi, I don't find it fair to send Daisuke at Sochi.

    When Sasha Cohen want to go to 2010 Vancouver the USFS doesn't have send her instead of Mirai Nagasu and an other example Plushenko who lost to Kovtun, the russian federation will not send Plushenko at Sochi even if he is really popular.

    Daisuke taking the place of Takahiko is not fair to me.

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    I so love Daisuke that I can't judge objectively whether he or another fine skater should go to the Olympics. I hope that if Dai goes to the Olympics, though, Takahiko can go to Worlds. I still hold out hopes that Daisuke can even win the OGM. It's not impossible!

    I don't think Dai's case is parallel to that of Sasha in 2010, though. Sasha had not been an actively competitive skater since 2006, and she decided to dust off her skates again and try for Vancouver in 2010. Dai has been competing at or near the top of the rankings solidly for the past four years, and he has helped assure Japan's reputation as a world power in men's skating.

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    It sucks that JSF didn't give the Worlds spot to Kozuka. That would've been a fair consolation prize and would've sent the message to skaters that Nationals does mean something. Sure, Takahashi might retire after Sochi and the Kozuka might get to go anyway, but it wouldn't be the same as earning the spot outright. And I have a feeling Takahashi won't retire, unless he gives a really bad performance at Sochi. It's his last Worlds and it's being held in Japan. I can see JSF pressuring him to stay on for the mad ticket $$$.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Panini View Post
    It sucks that JSF didn't give the Worlds spot to Kozuka. That would've been a fair consolation prize and would've sent the message to skaters that Nationals does mean something.
    Kozuka doesn't deserve 3rd place. He was just held up in order to displace Oda out of the podium in the case Takahashi could not catch up. I suspect Kozuka's SP score would be 85 not 90 points, if he skated before Takahashi. Since Oda is the real 3rd place, Kozuka should't be given a consolation prize (worlds). The bronze medal and 4CC are satisfactory enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    Kozuka doesn't deserve 3rd place. He was just held up in order to displace Oda out of the podium in the case Takahashi could not catch up. I suspect Kozuka's SP score would be 85 not 90 points, if he skated before Takahashi. Since Oda is the real 3rd place, Kozuka should't be given a consolation prize (worlds). The bronze medal and 4CC are satisfactory enough.
    That is totally it and, for me, this is the only reason I have a real problem with what happened. Kozuka's sp score was total bs. Propping one skater up is one thing but doing it for the sole purpose of kicking another skater (especially one of Oda's stature) down is repugnant.

    Whether Takahashi should be on the team or not on the team is debatable. People can agree to disagree (I really have a problem with it but I can appreciate why he was chosen), but surely JSF did not have to go that extra distance and corrupt the scoring for the purpose of damaging a skater's, ie Oda's, standing (as opposed to the lesser evil, but still very much an evil, of propping a skater up).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
    You're obviously free to have your opinion, but please stop writing one post after the other where you repeatedly bash a guy who just got his dream shattered. Thanks.
    I get the disappointment of not able to go, but let's not make it out to be like he "deserved" it. No!
    If you're talking about "deserving" the spot, it was Oda.

    Koz was held up so he could be in third place.
    Third place "deserved" to go.

    Well, since you aren't worthy of the National podium to begin with, you don't deserve to go.

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    Who is the alternate for the Olympics? Dai seems vulnerable to injury and might have to withdraw.

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    Although I personally think Dai should not have gotten the spot, I can respect the reason why people think he does deserve it. However, I still don't think Dai deserves the Worlds spot. That spot should have gone to Oda, who performed consistently the whole GP season. Kozuka's GP season was too weak. But of course the Japanese Fed would have to give the spot to Dai due to his popularity in Japan... =(

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