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Thread: Daisuke instead of Takahiko - Fair decision or not ?

  1. #91
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    He was just held up in order to displace Oda out of the podium in the case Takahashi could not catch up.
    So this is accepted as fact now. And nothing is done about it because that's just how figure skating works? Honestly, it boggles my mind that figure skating is still allowed to call itself a sport.

    Then Oda should've been given the consolation prize. Either way, Takahashi shouldn't have been given both spots, but JSF wants $$$ so what can you do.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Probably if Worlds wasnt in Japan, Takahashi would have been given the Olympics and Oda the Worlds but reality is Worlds is in Japan, so....

    Yes that Kozuka beat Oda strictly to justify Takahashi making the team is pretty much a commonly accepted fact. It seems everyone who watched the competition has come to that conclusion. Kozuka deserved 3rd in the short but with 2 significant mistakes was way overscored (and Oda even with his one huge points losing mistake way underscored) and Odas almost clean long program should have easily beaten Kozukas with several mistakes by many points, and come 3rd overall. Kozuka was never a threat to make the team himself, unless he skated lights out and beat Machida, but he was the pawn to justify the team they wanted.
    Not everyone. I think Kozuka was placed correctly.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Yes that Kozuka beat Oda strictly to justify Takahashi making the team is pretty much a commonly accepted fact. It seems everyone who watched the competition has come to that conclusion.
    Wow, after a few days of calm on that front, you guys have suddenly felt the need to warm this up again?

    - I don't agree with that commonly accepted fact.
    - I watched the competition and have not come to that conclusion. The fact that I'm not included in "everyone" is really affecting my self esteem.
    - Please be real: Even if Nobunari Oda had finished 3rd in the Japanese Nationals, the Japanese Federation would still have chosen Takahashi. For the same reasons as they did now.
    - For the last time (from me, then I let you post the subjective unfounded stuff you want): Kozuka had a SP of the highest standard with 2 deductions of ca. 2 pts each. Oda's one mistake, as you called it, forced him to do another minor jump, so in the end, he had 2 big mistakes in his SP (3T with an ugly landing and 3Lz2T).
    - Just to make it clear: I'm a fan of all 3 skaters and knew before the JN that I'd be really sad for 1 or 2 of them. What I take issue with is the need to bash the guy who probably spent the last week depressed sitting in the dark again and again and again when he rightfully finished 3rd at these JN.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkS3Pyfa1NM

  4. #94
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    I think Kozuka was placed correctly too. His BV was about the same as Oda thanks to the tripled quad of Oda.

    While Oda was low balled on PCS in the SP he also tripled a quad there and as such had to do a triple-double, leaving 9 points on the table, whereas Kozuka at least rotated his all jumps even if with errors. Even with the same PCS in each program as Kozuka, he still would have lost by 2 points.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by chloepoco View Post
    Such a sweet thought from Misha Ge's tweet:

    Misha Ge @Sk8Prince

    "Its same time happy for team JP Mens who go to Olympic but sad for friends who are not going :( "Can they come to Olympic as extra?
    That is so nice. I do feel for Oda and Kozuka. I do like Dai's skatingbest but somehow this seems a little cold and unfair. But it depends who you are cheering for. I do think it is a bit sad or unfair that Dai gets to do oly's and world's. I know this is mean but how would you feel if Dai wins and not only gets the glory but the endorsements and adoration while you are working in some factory making Hello Kitty dolls or whatever? Oda and Kozuka are too classy to say how they really feel. This decisions could have huge ramifications for not only Dai and Kozuka and Oda but others including Hanyu, Chan, Fernandez,Ten et al but such is life it is a dog eat dog world. Can you imagine the media frenzy if Dai wins from off the team to Oly gold. CAn you imagine the real pain for Oda and Kozuka let alone the silver and bronze medallist. But that's life.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Well that is typical of Chan, the most held up skater in skating history, almost anywhere, so I can see not reading too much into Canadian advantage for that. Although you are right, judging in Canada tends to be just as bad as Russia. Russia after this years COR is the only country that can even rival Canada in that regard.
    I totally disagree. The most held up skater is Carolina Kostner. Her skating skills while excellent do not match the equivalency of Chan and truly she has had some abysmal skates. When she implodes she loses the fire unlike Patrick.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedi View Post
    That is so nice. I do feel for Oda and Kozuka. I do like Dai's skatingbest but somehow this seems a little cold and unfair. But it depends who you are cheering for. I do think it is a bit sad or unfair that Dai gets to do oly's and world's. I know this is mean but how would you feel if Dai wins and not only gets the glory but the endorsements and adoration while you are working in some factory making Hello Kitty dolls or whatever? Oda and Kozuka are too classy to say how they really feel. This decisions could have huge ramifications for not only Dai and Kozuka and Oda but others including Hanyu, Chan, Fernandez,Ten et al but such is life it is a dog eat dog world. Can you imagine the media frenzy if Dai wins from off the team to Oly gold. CAn you imagine the real pain for Oda and Kozuka let alone the silver and bronze medallist. But that's life.
    On the flip side, can you imagine the pressure on Takahashi to perform at least reasonably well at Sochi? Can you imagine if he puts out a similar LP and falls out of top 10?

    I don't think Oda and Kozuka will be working in some factory making Hello Kitty dolls or whatever. They won't be making mega Yens like Takahashi but with their accomplishments, they will likely have lucrative opportunities and make respectable contributions to the sport. They are Japanese, not Canadians.

    What do you think will be the huge ramifications on those non Japanese skaters you mentioned?

  8. #98
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    Whatever happened regarding the merits of the skates (ie whether it was Kozuka or Ota who should have had third), there was definitely judging malfeasance against Oda on the short and earlier in the year at NHK, and it was not gratuitous malfeasance (ie it was done for a purpose). It was blatantly obvious that Kozuka's sp score was bumped up. One (Kozuka's) was bumped up where needed and the other's (Oda's) suppressed where needed. (If Takahashi had skated so as to blow the roof off there would have been no tinkering required. As it was, they took out the sledgehammer on the first day.) Kozuka pulled himself up in the LP, but surely anyone with a human dimension to their soul would seriously wonder what kind of irreparable harm had been created by the first day. Let's apply some eq here. HEY! That smack-down of Oda was blatant.

    Surely no one is suggesting that Oda had a chance of getting third no matter how well he skated? He was off the table. If Kozuka skated well, they did not have to do anything. If Kozuka cacked, they propped him up. He could not lose. After the first day, why would Oda even show up except to show that he has more class than the JSF? It has to be difficult to skate with your head up under those circumstances after being publicly betrayed by your own skating federation.

    His quitting when he did showed class and dignity, but it is also a pretty damning statement against his federation and the infrastructure of the sport in general.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I'm not the only person who agrees that Chan deserved to win the LP. And it is a total lie to suggest that I keep mentioning this "8 times a day minimum" when I haven't even mentioned it 8 times to begin with....... unlike you taking every opportunity even on the most unrelated threads to bash Chan's 3 World titles, and fallaciously say he wins with 5 falls. Although hypocrisy is probably the least of your innumerable grievances.
    I think Chan winning with falls is an outcome, right or wrong of COP people. And really his skating skills is that or are that much better than everyone else's even when he skate's poorly this also benefits his GOE's - read the rules - entrances, exits etc all add to GOE so yes it is double dipping but he should pick up marks. Break down the scoring - certainly the falls will hurt what is kind of scare folks is we on this site are suppose to be the knowledgeable figure skating fans - the rest of the world will just see falls and they have no idea about quality of skating,edges etc. They have no idea why a triple lutz is far h arder than a triple toe or how a triple lutz cannot lead immediately into an axel. This is why I can also see how B and S of Russia beat Sale and Pelletier back then the rule was artistry broke the tie so if you had Canada first and Russia second technically but reversed it artistically well there you have it. But back to whether this is a fair decision of Da over Takahiko I guess it depends on who you favour.

  10. #100
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    Chan did not win by falling this season. In fact, so far this season, he has fallen 0 time but did not win every time. On the other hand, Hanyu has fallen at every major competition, both internationally and nationally, on his way to break World Guiness record and winning twice. Everyone know it has a lot to do with over 2/3 of ISU sponsors are Japanese corporations - a fact easily checked by picking out the names of these sponsors as they are prominently featured in each ISU event page and on the boards around the rinks. The amount of money they inject to the sport is such that like it or not, it makes a lot of business sense to see the Japanese skaters doing very well. Therefore, intentionally or not, they receive a major boost especially when the competition is in Japan. It wasn't just Hanyu. If you look at Mao Asada's skate at the GPF, the monstrous scores she received for an error-filled Free Skate - not just small errors either - is turning the ladies competition into a farce. Mao is not skating any better than 2 years ago, where she struggled to break 110 in Free Skate - her Triple Axel is still not consistent, no Triple Lutz, continuous UR of jumps, including doubles. What has changed in 2 years, to suddenly go from 110 to 130+? Nothing has changed - just different costume and music. Not surprisingly, Japan also receives a disproportional amount of ISU events every single year. Can anyone recall a year where the GPF and Worlds take place in the same country? From 2013 to 2014, Japan has hosted or will host : Four Continents Championships, GPF, World Championships, not counting NHK, Japan Open, WTT.

    To be clear, this has nothing to do with the Japanese skaters, they are just hard working athletes doing their best. Unfortunately, we live in a world where money is king and most things are inherently unfair. With the ISU struggling badly for money, Japan's influence on the ISU has grown exponentially. Therefore, the decision to pick Takahashi over Kozuka needs to be viewed not only for a merit standpoint but also a business standpoint. What makes the most business sense knowing how important sponsorship,viewership and ultimately the publicity& money affects Figure Skating? When one answers that question, the decision to pick Takahashi becomes a non-brainer.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 12-31-2013 at 02:59 AM.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Can anyone recall a year where the GPF and Worlds take place in the same country?
    The 1999-2000 season: the GPF was in Lyon, France and Worlds was in Nice, France that year.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    To be clear, this has nothing to do with the Japanese skaters, they are just hard working athletes doing their best. Unfortunately, we live in a world where money is king and most things are inherently unfair. With the ISU struggling badly for money, Japan's influence on the ISU has grown exponentially. Therefore, the decision to pick Takahashi over Kozuka needs to be viewed not only for a merit standpoint but also a business standpoint. What makes the most business sense knowing how important sponsorship,viewership and ultimately the publicity& money affects Figure Skating? When one answers that question, the decision to pick Takahashi becomes a non-brainer.
    I think the US women benefitted from the financial influence for a long time. Neither Sarah Hughes or Tara Lipinski would be Olympic champions had they not been from the US. Not that they weren't deserving on the nights they won, but I don't think they would have had the same career trajectory had they been from Uzbekistan or Hungary. Both skaters had deficiencies that judges could have easily capped their second mark at 5.5 for the duration of their careers.

    Back to Japan, the nature of judged sports is that every country is trying to gain the upper hand for their athletes. Whether it is pumping money into the sport, or trading votes with another country, or having your judge email other judges to criticize a top contender from a different country, every federation does some underhanded things to put their athletes ahead.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Chan did not win by falling this season. In fact, so far this season, he has fallen 0 time but did not win every time. On the other hand, Hanyu has fallen at every major competition, both internationally and nationally, on his way to break World Guiness record and winning twice. Everyone know it has a lot to do with over 2/3 of ISU sponsors are Japanese corporations - a fact easily checked by picking out the names of these sponsors as they are prominently featured in each ISU event page and on the boards around the rinks. The amount of money they inject to the sport is such that like it or not, it makes a lot of business sense to see the Japanese skaters doing very well. Therefore, intentionally or not, they receive a major boost especially when the competition is in Japan. It wasn't just Hanyu. If you look at Mao Asada's skate at the GPF, the monstrous scores she received for an error-filled Free Skate - not just small errors either - is turning the ladies competition into a farce. Mao is not skating any better than 2 years ago, where she struggled to break 110 in Free Skate - her Triple Axel is still not consistent, no Triple Lutz, continuous UR of jumps, including doubles. What has changed in 2 years, to suddenly go from 110 to 130+? Nothing has changed - just different costume and music. Not surprisingly, Japan also receives a disproportional amount of ISU events every single year. Can anyone recall a year where the GPF and Worlds take place in the same country? From 2013 to 2014, Japan has hosted or will host : Four Continents Championships, GPF, World Championships, not counting NHK, Japan Open, WTT.

    To be clear, this has nothing to do with the Japanese skaters, they are just hard working athletes doing their best. Unfortunately, we live in a world where money is king and most things are inherently unfair. With the ISU struggling badly for money, Japan's influence on the ISU has grown exponentially. Therefore, the decision to pick Takahashi over Kozuka needs to be viewed not only for a merit standpoint but also a business standpoint. What makes the most business sense knowing how important sponsorship,viewership and ultimately the publicity& money affects Figure Skating? When one answers that question, the decision to pick Takahashi becomes a non-brainer.
    Wasn't Japan given the 2014 only after they gave up the 2011 event due to the tsunami disaster?

    To hear you talk, the JSF is nothing but a corrupt federation, and the Japanese skaters win only because of this. Of course, it has nothing to do with their talent.

  14. #104
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    To be fair, Yuzuru has improved considerably and the very reasons Chan has won in the past (his competitors made mistakes in the SP, and even with a fall(s) his BV was much higher, his GOE is excellent, and his overall skating is better) is making him the beneficiary of wins this season.

    I mean, Hanyu with a fall at Japanese nationals not only placed ahead of a clean Machida and clean Oda in the FS, he placed 10 and 15 points ahead of each one respectively in the segment. Nobody's complaining because they acknowledge that his BV was higher, he gets amazing GOE on the elements he executes, and the rest of his skating is at a higher level than those two. Not to mention the GPF where Hanyu won the FS segment with a fall over a clean Chan. But, hey, if it's Chan at 2012 Worlds, everybody scream bloody murder!

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    The 1999-2000 season: the GPF was in Lyon, France and Worlds was in Nice, France that year.
    Unfortunately, that was the year where the Worlds was originally given to Australia but taken away due to a dispute between the ISU and the Australian Ice Skating association. The Nice Worlds in 2000 was in fact a replacement World Championship. The 2014 Worlds however was never assigned to anyone other than Japan, neither was the 2013 GPF.

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