- Joined
- May 4, 2013
Don't you think there's a little something else that would have had to be different for her name to pop up on this thread? :scowl:
A Female Skater Who Has Everything, Is It Possible?
- Thread starter tana
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Don't you think there's a little something else that would have had to be different for her name to pop up on this thread? :scowl:
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2011
Yuna's 3-3 is one of the most difficult ones being done; the only more difficult ones done in competition by the ladies are the 3Lo-3Lo, 3F-3Lo, and 3Lz-3Lo, none of which are accomplished regularly right now. My original point was whether Yuna satisfies
to which I said she omits the Loop (understandable due to injury reasons, and she did do it at two competitions in 2007 - the same number of competitions where Mao has landed a Lutz without an edge call I might add) and she does not have the most difficult programs of her era while Midori Ito did. Even if a 3-3 and 2A-3T is "the standard" at this time for regular ladies, doesn't that mean that having harder jumps than the standard just counts as a bonus? Doesn't omitting a regular triple expected of virtually everyone count as a minus? Either way, as Yuna does some of the hardest combinations, has kept these difficult combinations throughout the length of her career, and at one competition in 2007 did all the jumps expected at that time virtually perfectly, I'll happily concede that she satisfies that point even if she omits the triple loop these days.
Regarding why I think limiting the double Axels to 2 in a FS is justified, we have the Zayak rule for a reason. Otherwise, Yuna Kim, the best toe jumper in the world, could just do 3Lz-3T three times in a row and do 4 more Lutzes. In 2007-2010, a +2 GOE 2A could get as many points as a 3F, so limiting it to 2 times is perfectly reasonable when the Zayak rule for other triples exists. The FS was originally meant to be a "well-balanced program" and having three double Axels goes against that, even if one is out of an Ina Bauer, one is out of a spread eagle, and one is at the very end of the program.
To answer the rest of your post, I don't advocate ignoring GOE entirely, and of course it is more difficult to land a jump with +GOE. But I think +GOE should not be taken at face value due to the disparity in GOE awarded between competitions, and it should especially not be used to say this:
Good execution is important, and executing Yuna's 2013 Worlds FS as well as she did is obviously impossible for any of the ladies today. Her layout itself, however, is not the most difficult. What is better than using subjective GOE is looking at the jumps accomplished, seeing whether they received edge/UR calls or -GOE (which says a lot more about the jump than a +0.6 vs +1.4), and then looking at entry/air position/exit.
Good discussion. A few comments:
-IMO, a red flag should go up if the risk/reward proposition for a jump results in an increase in the number of attempts, but chronic issues with ratification and quality. This is what we are seeing with Mao. Not to mention the fact that no other skater has seriously attempted it in the past two cycles. All of this should be telling us that ladies skating is not ready for it. If they increase the rewards/decrease the downside even further, I argue that the result will simply be an increase in splatfests and technically sloppy outings, as competitors calculate that they don't have that much to lose in attempting it. My own view is that this would be the exact opposite of what would be in the best interests of skating.
-I understand, of course, the purpose of the Zayak rule, which was originally intended for triples. But why is a 2A considered an "honorary triple" only after Yuna used it to blow people out of the water?
It doesn't apply to any other doubles, even a Lutz. Yuna made that jump a weapon because she was able to get superb GOE out of it. I personally doubt the rule would have been changed if Yuna hadn't used it to such good effect, no matter who else was using it at that time. More than the rule change itself, though, it is the targeted nature of it that irks me. This is one of those instances, IMO, where the non-existent influence of the Korean Fed really showed.-Again, if one accepts that 1) the judging of Base Value has also been changeable over time, and 2) that the characteristics that result in GOE add to the difficulty of jump execution, then it logically follows that BV+GOE should be a better measure of difficulty than BV alone, particularly when comparing contemporaries. While looking at even more narrowly defined aspects of jump quality is, in principle, another way to do it, this method has its own issues:
a) redefining the criteria as a series of narrower subcomponents of jump quality is, in principle, workable, but your proposal whittles down the GOE criteria so much that it basically disappears.
b) OTOH, if we were to use a fuller set of subcomponents, what we would essentially be doing is a bottom-up GOE analysis. Admirable, but adds immensely to complexity, with no greater assurance of consensus. Reinventing the wheel, in other words.
c) collapsing the GOE categories to "negative" or "not negative" is just asking for trouble if it were implemented in actual judging practice. Depending on how they drew that line, and the scoring differential assigned, it would make outcomes even more starkly black and white, and the accusations of judging error would make the current griping seem like the unaninimity of a hive mind. By extension, such an approach would also be untenable in the comparison of skaters. In my opinion, there is a very large difference between a +3 GOE jump and a +1 jump, let alone a -3 GOE jump, which I would find intellectually impossible not to acknowledge. I am aware of the trade-offs, but I personally think that a graduated system is still better.
1, Yuna has done perfect 3lo besides the 2 competitions in 2007, please check her earlier competitions. Also, there are plenty of videos showed her perfect 3lo in practice. the reason why Yuna does not do 3lo nowadays, is solely due to injury. Not because of technique issue. She has mastered the technique of a 3lo well.
2, Asada can never do a true 3lz in her career so far. Please link the two competitions where she does not get the edge call or any practice videos where she does a true 3lz with a perfect outside edge, and discuss about how that 3lutz is a legit one. Did not get a edge call (for who knows what reason), does not mean Asada really did a true 3lz at the time. Similarly, Yuna got bogus edge call on her 3Flip does not mean that her 3F is not text-book perfect at the time. Bottom line, Asada has not master the technique of a true 3lutz yet.
3, There is definitely a huge difference between a GOE+2 jump and a GOE+0 jump. Every amateur skater can land a 3 jump with a fair amount of training, however, land a high and flying 3 jump like competitive skaters do in their warm-up is difficult. Now that is the "difficulty" difference between +2 and +0 jumps. If you think a bauer-2A is easy and an easy huge point getter, why not more skaters attempt it. why not Asada attempt it.
Therefore, TES is the best measurement of difficulty (including spins and step sequence and GOE for either as well). The skater whoever gets the highest TES has the most difficulty.
2, Asada can never do a true 3lz in her career so far. Please link the two competitions where she does not get the edge call or any practice videos where she does a true 3lz with a perfect outside edge, and discuss about how that 3lutz is a legit one. Did not get a edge call (for who knows what reason), does not mean Asada really did a true 3lz at the time. Similarly, Yuna got bogus edge call on her 3Flip does not mean that her 3F is not text-book perfect at the time. Bottom line, Asada has not master the technique of a true 3lutz yet.
3, There is definitely a huge difference between a GOE+2 jump and a GOE+0 jump. Every amateur skater can land a 3 jump with a fair amount of training, however, land a high and flying 3 jump like competitive skaters do in their warm-up is difficult. Now that is the "difficulty" difference between +2 and +0 jumps. If you think a bauer-2A is easy and an easy huge point getter, why not more skaters attempt it. why not Asada attempt it.
Therefore, TES is the best measurement of difficulty (including spins and step sequence and GOE for either as well). The skater whoever gets the highest TES has the most difficulty.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
Not necessarily. A lot of second-tier skaters perform elements better than senior skaters who are given +1/2/3 regardless of how well they do a jump. A well-executed 2A by a junior will score as much than an okay 2A by a senior. Several favourites get +2 on spins whereas younger skaters with faster rotations and more interesting positions will just get a 0 or maybe +1. If GOE is scored fairly then yes TES is an indication of the technically superior skater but that's idealistic.
It has been noted by many, including prominent skating professionals, that the scrutiny that jumps get for edge calls/downgrades can often be harsher in the junior ranks than for the prominent seniors. Until the day comes when BV calls are made by appropriately sophisticated AI supercomputers using real-time motion measurement technology, it is the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.
There is nothing "idealistic" about saying that TES is the indication of the technically superior jumper. We simply need to recognize that there is a certain amount of measurement imprecision in all aspects of TES measurement, including BV and GOE.
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2011
1. In her senior career, Kim has done a good 3Loop in competition twice. Even in her junior career, it was a hit or miss jump for her especially when it was the required jump in her SP, though she did land it several times each season in 2004-2006.
2. Asada did not get an edge call for an obvious flutz (nor did Wagner) at 2012 4CC, so I simply discounted that one. In 2008 she landed clean Lutzes at NHK and the GPF (where she got a bogus < call on her 3-3, so it's not as if the panel there was particularly lenient on her). She lost the Lutz and her flip got worse the next year due to growth issues/decline in technique, but she was still landing clean 3Lutz in practice at 2009 Worlds.
3. If we're talking about difficult entries, Asada has in the past done a 2A out of a spread eagle, she often does steps into triple flip combinations, and she has also gotten +2 GOE on a 2A-3T. Again, TES is the best measurement of completed difficulty combined with execution, but it is not the best measurement of overall difficulty. For example, it's difficult to rotate two quad toes and two triple Axels while falling on them (like Chan) and also probably more difficult to complete a scratchy Tano 3Lutz out of steps than it is to land a plain 3Lutz well - the latter will obviously get higher GOE.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2011
Weak spirals, sit spin too high and copies Michelle Kwans choreography.
But I still love her skating, she is a gem. To those Olympic champs who grabbed the gold and ran she is a true champion. She not only came back but came with her solid arsenal of jumps.
A Michelle, Yuna hybrid would be phenomenal.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2011
I'm not good at doing the short clips of You Tube vids but I will do my best to show you.Which choreography did Yuna copy
Which choreography did Yuna copy
Sherezade, though a lot of people said it was a homage to Michelle K., of course if someone else does an element that Yuna does, even if she didn´t invented it, they are copying her
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2011
Yes, a string of women had it all. Henie-her spins, speed, incredible. Peggy wa balletic and strong. Dorothy made the basics an art form along with Janet. Kristi was the most exquisite pro. Michelle at 17 was pure delight. Jumpers like Ito inspired Tonya, Miki, Mao, YuNa.
It makes no sense to think anyone was perfect. Yuka Sato had no weaknesses. Has she been discussed? A rare talent indeed. Oh, such lucky people to see the great ladies in OLY. So jeaous
It makes no sense to think anyone was perfect. Yuka Sato had no weaknesses. Has she been discussed? A rare talent indeed. Oh, such lucky people to see the great ladies in OLY. So jeaous
Sherezade, though a lot of people said it was a homage to Michelle K., of course if someone else does an element that Yuna does, even if she didn´t invented it, they are copying her
Ah I see. I also took it as homage to M.K. but I guess you're right. I thought choreo is not as muchcopied but the dress and music cuts are definitely similar.
I wonder if there are more?
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2011
Michelle Kwan and Yuna Kim also both skated to Miss Saigon. Here is Michelle's performance. Melon I am sure you remember Yuna's performance so there's probably no need to link it
. But here it is anyway - a 7 triple performance that broke the LP record at the time. Very different music cuts, performances, and choreography so I think this one's a coincidence.
- Joined
- May 4, 2013
I would bet quite a few Won that Yu-Na Kim doesn't even know that Michelle Kwan skated to Miss Saigon when she was... 12!
Since I wasn't aware, thanks for the link!
I'll forgive Michelle for that very "early 90's junior-not really tasteful" music cut, including a 30 second part that has nothing to do with Miss Saigon and sounds a bit like something out of Vangelis' Conquest of Paradise, but that can't be it since it only came out in 1994. Maybe Michelle was inspired by Patricia Neske's Miss Saigon LP from the year before, since Neske originated from LA and trained alongside Michelle from time to time...
http://7.hidemyass.com/ip-1/encoded/Oi8vd3d3LnlvdXR1YmUuY29tL3dhdGNoP3Y9NV9mY0o1LWZIYVE= *
* search for "Patricia Neske LP 1992 World Figure Skating Championships" in regular youtube and you'll have a much better quality. I live in Germany aka Geoblock Hell, so I can't! :scowl:
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2010
Fun fact: Michelle Kwan also skated to Gershwin's "Concerto in F," the music that Yuna Kim skated to when she won the Olympics. Maybe it wasn't "Piano" Concerto in F, but it's still the same music.
1992 Junior Nationals LP - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42l8lZ7m9qY
How amazing to find that Michelle also skated to our friend the Piano Concerto in F. Also amazing to realize that this is the year in which she started her climb into the senior ranks, and a mere two years before she won silver at senior Nationals and almost made it to the Olympics.
I'm amazed how similar the music cuts are for all these programs 
. And I do see glimpse and poses and Yuna took from Michelle, but I think it makes it more similar because of the music cuts and dress. That Piano Concerto was a surprise!!! Never thought anyone would've skated that piece
. And I do see glimpse and poses and Yuna took from Michelle, but I think it makes it more similar because of the music cuts and dress. That Piano Concerto was a surprise!!! Never thought anyone would've skated that piece
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2010
I'm amazed how similar the music cuts are for all these programs
Well, now you know!
At least Yuna can say that Michelle never skated to anything remotely resembling "Homage to Korea."
It's the same music. There is little that is new in figure skating music (Emily Hughes also used that music, didn't she? Also, Karen Magnusson at the '72 Olympics).
Another fun fact is to look at all of the skaters who finished above Michelle at that competition (Michelle came in 8th, I think). None ever achieved anything at the senior level. And they had no clue at the time that they had beaten a future figure skating legend!
