Page 5 of 9 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 130

Thread: A Female Skater Who Has Everything, Is It Possible?

  1. #61
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    15,092
    I should avoid this discussion like the plague, but the answer is NO.
    Why? because as the sport evolves, & the rules change. Even aesthetics change. Today's perfect skater is not tomorrow's.
    There was a day when people were repulsed by contortionist poses, and flexibility was therefore not important. Now it is a requirement.
    There was a day when fine edge control was a requirement due to figures. Then it wasn't. Now with Patrick Chan's edges, edges are a big goal again.
    There was a day when Janet Lynn could do triples and didn't because they were unnecessary and deemed unladylike.
    There was a day when exquisite leg position in layback spins and in spirals were rewarded. Currently they are not.
    There was a day when tiny little jumps like Kristi Yamaguchi's were just fine. Now, not so much.
    There was a day when Ito's leg wrap was OK. Now people get critical about it.

    And for that matter, the standard for facial beauty changes from year to year and from country to country.

    So of course there is no ideal skater that will fit all ages & times. Nor will there be.

    But there will always be skaters who capture your heart at the moment, whom you love to pieces, whose faults will be unimportant to you (even if not to some other people). They may even be skaters whose performances you will always love. But their appeal will never be 100% universal.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 12-27-2013 at 03:13 PM.

  2. #62
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    1,223
    Yes (hypothetically)--Peggy Fleming with Alissa Czisny's spins and Yu Na's jumps.

  3. #63
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    1,223
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Except for the flexed feet.

  4. #64
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    409
    Well, what is everything?
    1. Doing the hardest jumps/all the jumps expected at that time
    2. Looking very smooth, poised and beautiful (subjective)
    3. Doing all the spins done in a time period
    4. Having some originality/distinctiveness to make her interesting to watch (subjective)
    5. Can't think of another person who does something better (sort of subjective)
    6. Being consistent

    Michelle didn't do triple triples when others did, so she's out from #1, and I don't think her spins were as flexible as some others were. Sarah and Tara had problems with #2, as does Julia--they look kiddish. Shizuka, I think won her medal with less triples than had Tara and Sarah, so she's out from #1. Oksana Baiul also didn't do combinations (or as many as she should), so she's out by #1.
    Kristi couldn't do one particular jump (salchow, I think?), so she didn't have it all.

    Mao is completely boring to me. She shows little personality on the ice. Even if she lands everything perfectly, it's just meh. To me, she doesn't fulfill #4. So Yuna would be the closest, perhaps, if she's consistent.

  5. #65
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,152
    ^^^
    Kristi could do a 3S but it was inconsistent.

  6. #66
    Custard Title
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    982
    I actually think Midori Ito comes closest to fulfilling those 6 criteria. Maybe some disagree with her having #2. Shizuka won OGM with easy content, but she won Worlds 2004 with 3 triple-triples in SP/LP combined. I would say Yuna doesn't fulfill #1 because she lacks the loop and besides her 3-3 her jump content is surprisingly easy compared to other top contenders.

  7. #67
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    2,701
    If I have to pick one in the past 20 years, the closest skater who has everything, life in skating, life outside of skating, life for the purpose of advancing the sport, it has to be Shizuka.

    She has all the check marks on everything needed to be the best and divakawa put sasha in her place for cutting her off at practice! Attitude to match. What more can you ask for?

  8. #68
    I'm gonna Customize the CRAP out of this Title!!! Frenchie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Mainz, Germany
    Posts
    894
    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    If I have to pick one in the past 20 years, the closest skater who has everything, life in skating, life outside of skating, life for the purpose of advancing the sport, it has to be Shizuka.
    What more can you ask for?
    She sure was amazing. The only thing I'd like to complete the picture would be "happiness while competing". I'm sure she's really happy now, but back then when she skated, she sometimes looked worn out by the pressure and admitted to consider retiring for lack of motivation a few times.
    I don't think she enjoyed the experience of skating a lot before she won the OGM, and to me it showed...

  9. #69
    Medalist
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    80
    Probably Yuna is the most "perfect" spins, jumps, skating skills artistry. MIchelle has longevity but no OGM and her jumps ere rather small and she wasn't that flexible but she worked it like Kerrigan. Shizuka and Butyrskaya when on were pretty good too for completeness - Shizuka's oly performance and Maria's 1999 were awesome - Maria skated like a woman. Mao on good skates early on was very complete too - lyrical and expressive. For her era Liz Manley on her good skates at the Olympic was pretty complete too. Witt relied on her personality. Trenary was complete too when on. Slutskayia more on power. Kostner is complete but she has had far too many bad skates and I mean bad to deserve this title. Poetch was blah. Chen and Sato when on were strong all around too.

  10. #70
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    652
    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    I actually think Midori Ito comes closest to fulfilling those 6 criteria. Maybe some disagree with her having #2. Shizuka won OGM with easy content, but she won Worlds 2004 with 3 triple-triples in SP/LP combined. I would say Yuna doesn't fulfill #1 because she lacks the loop and besides her 3-3 her jump content is surprisingly easy compared to other top contenders.
    Yuna has had all of the jumps at various points in her career. She was doing the 3loop until hip injuries made her drop it around 2007-8 (she didn't need it to win; why take the risk of cutting her career short with a freak injury?). You make it sound like she was constitutionally incapable of doing one, which is absurd. After a while, Michael Jordan stopped dunking from the free throw line, to save on physical wear and tear; he continued to win without it. No basketball fan would say that Jordan never had that dunk move.

    If you recall her Vancouver layout, she was doing the 2a-3t as well; it was gobsmackingly gorgeous in the LP. The reason she discontinued it was because of post-Olympics rules changes limiting the number of 2As done; and whose fault was that? Don't even get me started. Water under the bridge now and all that, so I don't want to get into a fan war.

    She also did an amazingly beautiful 3f-3t. See her 2009 record-breaking Worlds performances. But she switched to a 3lz-3t for the Olympic season.

    The base value of her jump layout is about as high as she can make it without doing the 3lo, and given the aforementioned limitations on the 2a. Having said that, I will take issue with your objection on more fundamental ground: the "difficulty" of a jump layout is not only a function of the base value, but also of the achievable GOE. There are some who make a fetish of "base value", and, indeed, attempt to persuade people that BV and "difficulty" are equivalent terms.

    Are we to understand that a jump with, say, +3 GOE characteristics (as opposed to 0 or negative GOE) is not significantly more difficult to execute successfully? When one thinks about it, the absurdity of such a proposition should be plain to see.

    Furthermore, I argue that the difficulty of a jump layout must be measured by what can actually be successfully executed, not by what is "planned" or attempted in a half-baked way.

    Therefore, on a basis of comprehensive technical difficulty in jumps (BV + GOE on jumps ratified), I maintain that Yuna's layout is more difficult, and not by a little, than that of any other skater.

    As to the OP's original question: Poodlepals' criteria are a good start, and Yuna certainly fulfills them, I believe. In addition, however, Yuna fulfills an extra bullet point that Shizuka, for example, does not: Yuna demonstrated the ability to utterly dominate her competitive field (including other skaters who are destined to be classified, to a greater or lesser degree, as Greats, such as Mao and Caro), and this dominance was particularly marked at the most important events, e.g. pre-Oly 2009 Worlds, 2010 Vancouver Olys, and pre-Oly 2013 Worlds.

    This is different from mere consistency. The ability to perform one's very best when it counts the most, which best is almost disjunctively of a different level from that of one's competitors, is a much less common trait, and the holy grail of athletes in all of sport.

  11. #71
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    1,223
    Quote Originally Posted by Jedi View Post
    Probably Yuna is the most "perfect" spins, jumps, skating skills artistry. MIchelle has longevity but no OGM and her jumps ere rather small and she wasn't that flexible but she worked it like Kerrigan. Shizuka and Butyrskaya when on were pretty good too for completeness - Shizuka's oly performance and Maria's 1999 were awesome - Maria skated like a woman. Mao on good skates early on was very complete too - lyrical and expressive. For her era Liz Manley on her good skates at the Olympic was pretty complete too. Witt relied on her personality. Trenary was complete too when on. Slutskayia more on power. Kostner is complete but she has had far too many bad skates and I mean bad to deserve this title. Poetch was blah. Chen and Sato when on were strong all around too.
    Most perfect 3-3 and lutz. The rest not so much. Certainly not her spins (not compared to Alissa or Lucinda Ruh or the classic laybacks of Fleming, Lynn and Hamill). Nor her artistry--in the eye of the beholder of course, but I prefer Akiko Suzuki, Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, Janet Lynn, Peggy Fleming. No loop jump. Average spirals.

  12. #72
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    652
    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    So now are we requiring a skater who is not only very good in all areas, but one of the best in history in all areas. If it is the latter you would find nobody guaranteed, and there is no point doing this topic. Compared to most people Kim is a very good spinner. I considered Kwan a good spinner (some might differ there) and I consider Kim a much better spinner than Kwan. Fleming only had a good layback, her other spins were pretty weak. Many of them she only did about 2 turns in a position which was pathetic even for that era. I see how Dick Button would have brainwashed many Americans to thinking the only spin that existed was the layback, and the only thing that mattered about a spiral was getting your leg at 180 degrees (or 135 degrees but with a big goofy grin like Kwan or Kerrigan, and in Kerrigans case needing you hand gripped tightly on your knee yanking hard to even get it at that height too, lol). Average spirals wouldnt be getting +2s and +3s in GOE from the judges either.
    Well said. Yuna's spins are not the best ever, but they are still strong relative to the general field, and are capable of garnering excellent scores.

  13. #73
    I'm gonna Customize the CRAP out of this Title!!! Frenchie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Mainz, Germany
    Posts
    894
    By today's standards and rulebooks, Chen Lu taking a few seconds standing still and drawing the audience/judges in with a look would be considered a "waste of precious time to stuff in some more technical content".
    But since I miss those days, and think they ended up being more emotional and enjoyable to watch, I'd say the 1996 Chen Lu comes closest to the perfect skater ever in my book. (needless to say I think she should have won that WC title over Michelle Kwan, who I also like)
    Her 1996 World SP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-DeyZ5yY28
    Her 1996 World LP*
    http://3.hidemyass.com/ip-4/encoded/...TXlwX1FGWW8%3D
    (* for some annoying reason her LP is geoblocked in Germany. But I got to hide my *** and that's the link I put here. If you're lucky enough not to live in Germany, search for Chen Lu 陈露 (CHN) - 1996 World Figure Skating Championships from 3Axel1996 on regular youtube, the video quality is better!)

    (her 1998 Olympic performance was beautiful and made me tear up, but part of the emotion was that she wasn't as consistent and clean on her jumps, so I'd still take the 1996 performance as her best performance)

  14. #74
    Custard Title
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    982
    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye View Post
    Yuna has had all of the jumps at various points in her career. She was doing the 3loop until hip injuries made her drop it around 2007-8 (she didn't need it to win; why take the risk of cutting her career short with a freak injury?). You make it sound like she was constitutionally incapable of doing one, which is absurd. After a while, Michael Jordan stopped dunking from the free throw line, to save on physical wear and tear; he continued to win without it. No basketball fan would say that Jordan never had that dunk move.

    If you recall her Vancouver layout, she was doing the 2a-3t as well; it was gobsmackingly gorgeous in the LP. The reason she discontinued it was because of post-Olympics rules changes limiting the number of 2As done; and who's fault was that? Don't even get me started. Water under the bridge now and all that, so I don't want to get into a fan war.

    She also did an amazingly beautiful 3f-3t. See her 2009 record-breaking Worlds performances. But she switched to a 3lz-3t for the Olympic season.
    At various points in her career, Miki Ando had quad Salchow, 3Lutz-3Loop, and a 3Flip from the correct edge (to say nothing of her 2A-3T, Salchow, and Loop); Mao Asada at various points in her career has had 3A, 3A-2T, a real 3Lutz (for all of 2 competitions in 2008 ), 3F-3T, and 3F-3Lo. A 2A-3T, gobsmackingly beautiful or not, is hardly "most difficult." It is actually the easiest -3T combination being done these days (and the one everyone and their mother is doing). Also, considering the absurd number of points both Yuna and Mirai gained in Vancouver for doing 3 double Axels, the rule change limiting the number of double Axels was sorely needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye View Post
    The base value of her jump layout is about as high as she can make it without doing the 3lo, and given the aforementioned limitations on the 2a. Having said that, I will take issue with your objection on more fundamental ground: the "difficulty" of a jump layout is not only a function of the base value, but also of the achievable GOE. There are some who make a fetish of "base value", and, indeed, attempt to persuade people that BV and "difficulty" are equivalent terms. Are we to understand that a jump with, say, +3 GOE characteristics (as opposed to 0 or negative GOE) is not significantly more difficult to execute successfully? When one thinks about it, the absurdity of such a proposition should be plain to see.

    Furthermore, I argue that the difficulty of a jump layout must be measured by what can actually be successfully executed, not by what is "planned" or attempted in a half-baked way. Therefore, on a basis of comprehensive technical difficulty in jumps (BV + GOE on jumps ratified), I maintain that Yuna's layout is more difficult, and not by a little, than that of any other skater.
    Do you know why I care much less about GOE than the achieved BV? Because of the way Yuna was scored at CoR 2007 in comparison to how she was scored in Vancouver. The niggardly judging in 2007-08 meant that Yuna scored 6 points less in TES for a 7 triple program than she did for her Vancouver FS when the only "mistakes" she made in the former were a scratchy 3Lz and an omitted -2Lo. Don't try and tell me that Yuna's technical elements in Vancouver were so superior to how they were in her 2007 state, because they weren't. While certain bullets in GOE such as entry/exit, air position, etc. are part of difficulty, counting GOE as difficulty is silly (absurd, in fact) as it is obviously easier to get +GOE when one does 3 double Axels and GOE fluctuates so much between competitions. Just look at the difference in the GOE for Yuna's solo 3Salchow at 2011 (+0.8) and 2013 (+1.4) Worlds.

    Therefore, I say that BV is a better measure of difficulty than BV+GOE. BV does not account for difficult entry/exit, unusual air position, etc. but it is still much more objective than GOE.

  15. #75
    Custard Title
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    982
    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Compared to most top skaters of her era Yu Na is near the top in difficulty. She can do both triple lutz-triple toe and triple flutz-triple toe easily and has done them both cleanly many times (although the rules of COP made it hard for her to do both in one program even before the changes, and now impossible), while most of the top skaters of this era never even had a single consistent 3-3. I cant think of a skater in history who could do some of the hardest 3-3s as easily, well, and consistently as her in fact. Even Midori Ito, the best jumper ever, only consistently did the 3 toe-3 toe, the easiest triple-triple there is. One year she had the triple lutz-triple toe planned and managed it only once. Only compared to Asada does she fall behind some in difficulty, but then Mao arguably reaches and keeps trying programs she has little to no hope of doing cleanly (to her credit in her youth she managed insane content cleanly a number of times, but not recently). Has Yu Na in her career lacked in difficultly compared to Kostner, Rochette, Ando (who stopped doing 3-3s other than an UR 3-3 in the SP), Wagner, Leonova, Suzuki, and every other top skater of this era you can think of. Of course not, she is usually above all those. I have no idea what top skaters you are thinking of, are you are thinking only of now, where it is possible in the LP more than before are above her in base value with the rule changes which hurt Kim more than anyone, and more women doing 7 triples and atleast one 3-3 than ever before, but that would not be reflective of her career.

    I would add high quality and big jumps with great run out should be added to the very good list of 6 that one gave, which would make it 7.
    I would agree that Yuna is near the top or at the top in difficulty consistently accomplished, and at the top in difficulty she has maintained consistently throughout the length of her career. She certainly fulfills most of the criteria and the ones she doesn't fulfill (e.g. "can't think of another person who does something better") are utterly unreachable anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    ROTFL she had the quad salchow for about 2 months. She only landed 1 clean one in competition. Her 3 lutz-3 loop was gone forever (poor attempts of one which never got ratified again aside) after age 20 as well. Her big jump became the double axel-triple toe, which never at any point became Kim`s biggest combination.
    I was responding to having all the jumps at various points in her career. Her 3Lutz-3Loop actually stayed a bit longer (almost into 2009) than you give her credit for - keeping that combination for 5 years as a senior is not bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    As for Kim`s GOE going up from 2007 to 2010, GOE has become elevated over time for all the skaters. As has PCS, and everything else.
    Not just 2007-2010, there's also 2011 vs 2013 Worlds and scoring of non-clean vs. clean performances. I have no issue with marking up the numbers when she has a perfect FS and deserves the win, but I do take issue with using GOE as a measure of difficulty.

Page 5 of 9 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •