Page 6 of 9 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 130

Thread: A Female Skater Who Has Everything, Is It Possible?

  1. #76
    Adiós Melon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    522
    I disagree that BV determines difficulty. If we were to do so, how are we ever going to compare men's difficulty?
    These days, most men do 4T(or 4T+3T), 3A, and solo triple jump(+3T if combo wasn't used) in their SP.
    If you look at in this situation, difficulty must be based on GOE because the base value would be similar in most men, and there would be no way to compare them.
    Hence why they should try to earn as much GOEs as possible, and that means more effortless skating, more interesting entries and exits, more movements, more transitions, and etc.
    Effortless and beautifully executed program should be more difficult because it requires more than just "jumping."

  2. #77
    Custard Title
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    993
    Quote Originally Posted by Melon View Post
    I disagree that BV determines difficulty. If we were to do so, how are we ever going to compare men's difficulty?
    These days, most men do 4T(or 4T+3T), 3A, and solo triple jump(+3T if combo wasn't used) in their SP.
    If you look at in this situation, difficulty must be based on GOE because the base value would be similar in most men, and there would be no way to compare them.
    Hence why they should try to earn as much GOEs as possible, and that means more effortless skating, more interesting entries and exits, more movements, more transitions, and etc.
    Effortless and beautifully executed program should be more difficult because it requires more than just "jumping."
    BV is not perfect but looking at GOE doesn't help. Looking at the jumps accomplished does - like Chan's 4T-3T and 3Lutz vs. Hanyu's 4T and 3Lutz-3Toe.

    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Well I think jumps you were able to do over your entire career are alot more important than a jump you could do for 1 season only as a junior skater (Miki`s quad salchow), a jump combination you couldnt do most of your contending years (Miki`s 3 lutz-3 toe, and btw I dont recall her getting any ratified in the 2008-2009 season but if you can show me a protocal where she did I will take that back).
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._SP_Scores.pdf

    I understood that criterion as "being the best in every aspect" but if it only means being the best at a certain thing, then sure.

  3. #78
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    2,755
    Miki was doing her combos in the wrong time!

    Her 3lutz-3loop combo at the 2009 W was worth 6.3 points.
    Joannie's 3lutz-2t combo was worth 7.3 points.

    This gave Joannie the silver over Miki. So wrong in so many way.

    Miki's quad Sal at the 2008 GPF (very good attempt) got her 2.9 points.

    Had she compete in this era where < is 70% of the jump, and your GOE doesn't have to be negative, she would be dominating the field easily.

    Miki was doing 3lutz-3loop regularly for at least 8 years when the system punished her hard for it.
    This girl has all the jumps, hard combo. If she really went for it during this quad, she would be the most dominated skater leading up to Sochi. She beat Yuna when both had 5 triples. She could win in 2012 and put real pressure on Yuna in 2013 as well.

    Wrong place wrong time for Miki.

    I don't think she has everything, but her jumping ability is above and beyond even Yuna. Early CoP killed her chance earlier in her career. Life event killed her chance the last few years.

  4. #79
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    654
    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    At various points in her career, Miki Ando had quad Salchow, 3Lutz-3Loop, and a 3Flip from the correct edge (to say nothing of her 2A-3T, Salchow, and Loop); Mao Asada at various points in her career has had 3A, 3A-2T, a real 3Lutz (for all of 2 competitions in 2008 ), 3F-3T, and 3F-3Lo. A 2A-3T, gobsmackingly beautiful or not, is hardly "most difficult." It is actually the easiest -3T combination being done these days (and the one everyone and their mother is doing). Also, considering the absurd number of points both Yuna and Mirai gained in Vancouver for doing 3 double Axels, the rule change limiting the number of double Axels was sorely needed.
    No one said anything about the 2a-3t being, of itself, the most difficult combination. But Yuna was able to do a 2a-3t along with her 3lz-3t at Vancouver, which was incrementally accretive to her score compared to, say, her current layout. That, I believe, is the point of "difficulty", at the end of the day. A high-scoring 3-3 in conjunction with a 2a-3t is still the standard for difficulty in the ladies competition.

    Miki has certainly landed the quad sal and etc. and Mao has tried the 3a and etc. for years, and again no one is saying different. I do not mind in the least if you were to demand that both these skaters be allowed to check off the "difficulty" criteria. I will even concede, for the sake of argument, Mao having had a lutz once upon a time. I personally feel that giving up a jump because of physical/health considerations, and not being able to maintain one because of technical issues, are two different things, but I won't nitpick.

    However, the quad/3a do not represent the generally accepted standard of difficulty for the ladies. They are, IMO, beyond the current physiological envelope, that is to say, they cannot form the basis of layouts that ladies skaters can aspire to at this juncture. This is why Miki only landed the quad once in competition, and Mao's issues in executing the 3a are so chronic that a double-footed landing is cause for celebration and is now almost the new "clean". By your brand of argument, maybe these jumps should be not allowed because the absurd number of points one can gain from unsuccessful attempts only encourage the misguided pursuit of badly executed jumps, when the goal should be beautifully executed ones.

    I am being slightly satirical. I think skaters should be able to attempt what they want (including 3 2As). But by the same token, the criteria for a "complete" skater should not be based on jumps that no competitor in the discipline can do with satisfying hygiene or regularity. I repeat: a high-scoring 3-3 and a 2a-3t is the current standard, which Yuna met in Vancouver.

    Whether or not your argument that 3 2As are "absurd" has a basis beyond a dissatisfaction with the competitive results can be argued, I suppose. What I find absurd in a Kafka-esque sort of way is that the rule is changed immediately after Vancouver, driven, I believe, by the scale of Yuna's victory, and then Yuna is accused of no longer meeting the requisite standards for difficulty!

    Do you know why I care much less about GOE than the achieved BV? Because of the way Yuna was scored at CoR 2007 in comparison to how she was scored in Vancouver. The niggardly judging in 2007-08 meant that Yuna scored 6 points less in TES for a 7 triple program than she did for her Vancouver FS when the only "mistakes" she made in the former were a scratchy 3Lz and an omitted -2Lo. Don't try and tell me that Yuna's technical elements in Vancouver were so superior to how they were in her 2007 state, because they weren't. While certain bullets in GOE such as entry/exit, air position, etc. are part of difficulty, counting GOE as difficulty is silly (absurd, in fact) as it is obviously easier to get +GOE when one does 3 double Axels and GOE fluctuates so much between competitions. Just look at the difference in the GOE for Yuna's solo 3Salchow at 2011 (+0.8) and 2013 (+1.4) Worlds.

    Therefore, I say that BV is a better measure of difficulty than BV+GOE. BV does not account for difficult entry/exit, unusual air position, etc. but it is still much more objective than GOE.
    Do you know why I believe this point to be moot? Because:

    1) The strictness/laxity with which jumps are evaluated in awarding BV has also been uneven over time, when one looks over the past two cycles.

    2) For the purpose of comparing scores across time, the issue of uniformity in judging is relevant. For the purpose of comparing skaters who are contemporaries, it is how they were judged relative to each other (and the field) that is more important.

    3) You are making a very narrow technical argument, while evading the more basic point. To go back to the fundamental issue, do you not agree that a jump with high GOE characteristics is more difficult than a jump with low or negative GOE characteristics? If this is so, then ignoring GOE entirely on the basis of measurement issues seems unjustifiably cavalier, a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water.

    Thus, I still believe that BV+GOE, and for jumps achieved, is the right measure of "difficulty".

  5. #80
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    1,329
    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Oh ok, well nobody can ever be the best at every aspect. That would be a crazy fantasy wish (actually I wouldnt want it, how incredibly boring competitions and the sport would be in that case). I use an example from say swimming. Michael Phelps is by far the greatest swimmer ever, probably the greatest Olympian ever, and in fact he is at a height of greatness in his sport that cant be even approached by any figure skater ever in the sport of figure skating (not even Torvill & Dean or Gordeeva & Grinkov), but even at the height of his powers he was only the best at the 200 and 400 individual medal, the 100 and 200 fly (and barely at the 100 fly), and the 200 free. Considering all the events included in a World Championships (some not in an Olympics) that would only make him the best at 5 of the 17 events (excluding the Open water events).

    I interpreted the criteria as being good at everything, and being the best at something.

    Anyway figure skating is not just about breaking down every aspect and picking an order. It is about being unique, different, special (in ways that cant be quantified as better or worse accurately) and also how the whole package comes together, not always the sum of the parts.
    I agree (though the thread topic was whether there could be a skater who has everything, and on that basis , the answer is no). But using the criteria you suggest, I pick Michelle Kwan. She had the whole package.

  6. #81
    I'm gonna Customize the CRAP out of this Title!!! Frenchie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Mainz, Germany
    Posts
    894
    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Had she had better choreography and been trained the way she was when she was younger (and had more support from the USFSA) Tonya Harding could have been a skater who had it all.
    Don't you think there's a little something else that would have had to be different for her name to pop up on this thread?

  7. #82
    Custard Title
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    993
    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye View Post
    No one said anything about the 2a-3t being, of itself, the most difficult combination. But Yuna was able to do a 2a-3t along with her 3lz-3t at Vancouver, which was incrementally accretive to her score compared to, say, her current layout. That, I believe, is the point of "difficulty", at the end of the day. A high-scoring 3-3 in conjunction with a 2a-3t is still the standard for difficulty in the ladies competition.

    Whether or not your argument that 3 2As are "absurd" has a basis beyond a dissatisfaction with the competitive results can be argued, I suppose. What I find absurd in a Kafa-esque sort of way is that the rule is changed immediately after Vancouver, driven, I believe, by the scale of Yuna's victory, and then Yuna is accused of no longer meeting the requisite standards for difficulty!
    Yuna's 3-3 is one of the most difficult ones being done; the only more difficult ones done in competition by the ladies are the 3Lo-3Lo, 3F-3Lo, and 3Lz-3Lo, none of which are accomplished regularly right now. My original point was whether Yuna satisfies
    1. Doing the hardest jumps/all the jumps expected at that time
    to which I said she omits the Loop (understandable due to injury reasons, and she did do it at two competitions in 2007 - the same number of competitions where Mao has landed a Lutz without an edge call I might add) and she does not have the most difficult programs of her era while Midori Ito did. Even if a 3-3 and 2A-3T is "the standard" at this time for regular ladies, doesn't that mean that having harder jumps than the standard just counts as a bonus? Doesn't omitting a regular triple expected of virtually everyone count as a minus? Either way, as Yuna does some of the hardest combinations, has kept these difficult combinations throughout the length of her career, and at one competition in 2007 did all the jumps expected at that time virtually perfectly, I'll happily concede that she satisfies that point even if she omits the triple loop these days.

    Regarding why I think limiting the double Axels to 2 in a FS is justified, we have the Zayak rule for a reason. Otherwise, Yuna Kim, the best toe jumper in the world, could just do 3Lz-3T three times in a row and do 4 more Lutzes. In 2007-2010, a +2 GOE 2A could get as many points as a 3F, so limiting it to 2 times is perfectly reasonable when the Zayak rule for other triples exists. The FS was originally meant to be a "well-balanced program" and having three double Axels goes against that, even if one is out of an Ina Bauer, one is out of a spread eagle, and one is at the very end of the program.

    To answer the rest of your post, I don't advocate ignoring GOE entirely, and of course it is more difficult to land a jump with +GOE. But I think +GOE should not be taken at face value due to the disparity in GOE awarded between competitions, and it should especially not be used to say this:
    Yuna's layout is more difficult, and not by a little, than that of any other skater.
    Good execution is important, and executing Yuna's 2013 Worlds FS as well as she did is obviously impossible for any of the ladies today. Her layout itself, however, is not the most difficult. What is better than using subjective GOE is looking at the jumps accomplished, seeing whether they received edge/UR calls or -GOE (which says a lot more about the jump than a +0.6 vs +1.4), and then looking at entry/air position/exit.

  8. #83
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    654
    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    Yuna's 3-3 is one of the most difficult ones being done; the only more difficult ones done in competition by the ladies are the 3Lo-3Lo, 3F-3Lo, and 3Lz-3Lo, none of which are accomplished regularly right now. My original point was whether Yuna satisfies to which I said she omits the Loop (understandable due to injury reasons, and she did do it at two competitions in 2007 - the same number of competitions where Mao has landed a Lutz without an edge call I might add) and she does not have the most difficult programs of her era while Midori Ito did. Even if a 3-3 and 2A-3T is "the standard" at this time for regular ladies, doesn't that mean that having harder jumps than the standard just counts as a bonus? Doesn't omitting a regular triple expected of virtually everyone count as a minus? Either way, as Yuna does some of the hardest combinations, has kept these difficult combinations throughout the length of her career, and at one competition in 2007 did all the jumps expected at that time virtually perfectly, I'll happily concede that she satisfies that point even if she omits the triple loop these days.

    Regarding why I think limiting the double Axels to 2 in a FS is justified, we have the Zayak rule for a reason. Otherwise, Yuna Kim, the best toe jumper in the world, could just do 3Lz-3T three times in a row and do 4 more Lutzes. In 2007-2010, a +2 GOE 2A could get as many points as a 3F, so limiting it to 2 times is perfectly reasonable when the Zayak rule for other triples exists. The FS was originally meant to be a "well-balanced program" and having three double Axels goes against that, even if one is out of an Ina Bauer, one is out of a spread eagle, and one is at the very end of the program.

    To answer the rest of your post, I don't advocate ignoring GOE entirely, and of course it is more difficult to land a jump with +GOE. But I think +GOE should not be taken at face value due to the disparity in GOE awarded between competitions, and it should especially not be used to say this:
    Good execution is important, and executing Yuna's 2013 Worlds FS as well as she did is obviously impossible for any of the ladies today. Her layout itself, however, is not the most difficult. What is better than using subjective GOE is looking at the jumps accomplished, seeing whether they received edge/UR calls or -GOE (which says a lot more about the jump than a +0.6 vs +1.4), and then looking at entry/air position/exit.
    Good discussion. A few comments:

    -IMO, a red flag should go up if the risk/reward proposition for a jump results in an increase in the number of attempts, but chronic issues with ratification and quality. This is what we are seeing with Mao. Not to mention the fact that no other skater has seriously attempted it in the past two cycles. All of this should be telling us that ladies skating is not ready for it. If they increase the rewards/decrease the downside even further, I argue that the result will simply be an increase in splatfests and technically sloppy outings, as competitors calculate that they don't have that much to lose in attempting it. My own view is that this would be the exact opposite of what would be in the best interests of skating.

    -I understand, of course, the purpose of the Zayak rule, which was originally intended for triples. But why is a 2A considered an "honorary triple" only after Yuna used it to blow people out of the water? It doesn't apply to any other doubles, even a Lutz. Yuna made that jump a weapon because she was able to get superb GOE out of it. I personally doubt the rule would have been changed if Yuna hadn't used it to such good effect, no matter who else was using it at that time. More than the rule change itself, though, it is the targeted nature of it that irks me. This is one of those instances, IMO, where the non-existent influence of the Korean Fed really showed.

    -Again, if one accepts that 1) the judging of Base Value has also been changeable over time, and 2) that the characteristics that result in GOE add to the difficulty of jump execution, then it logically follows that BV+GOE should be a better measure of difficulty than BV alone, particularly when comparing contemporaries. While looking at even more narrowly defined aspects of jump quality is, in principle, another way to do it, this method has its own issues:

    a) redefining the criteria as a series of narrower subcomponents of jump quality is, in principle, workable, but your proposal whittles down the GOE criteria so much that it basically disappears.

    b) OTOH, if we were to use a fuller set of subcomponents, what we would essentially be doing is a bottom-up GOE analysis. Admirable, but adds immensely to complexity, with no greater assurance of consensus. Reinventing the wheel, in other words.

    c) collapsing the GOE categories to "negative" or "not negative" is just asking for trouble if it were implemented in actual judging practice. Depending on how they drew that line, and the scoring differential assigned, it would make outcomes even more starkly black and white, and the accusations of judging error would make the current griping seem like the unaninimity of a hive mind. By extension, such an approach would also be untenable in the comparison of skaters. In my opinion, there is a very large difference between a +3 GOE jump and a +1 jump, let alone a -3 GOE jump, which I would find intellectually impossible not to acknowledge. I am aware of the trade-offs, but I personally think that a graduated system is still better.

  9. #84
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    543
    1, Yuna has done perfect 3lo besides the 2 competitions in 2007, please check her earlier competitions. Also, there are plenty of videos showed her perfect 3lo in practice. the reason why Yuna does not do 3lo nowadays, is solely due to injury. Not because of technique issue. She has mastered the technique of a 3lo well.
    2, Asada can never do a true 3lz in her career so far. Please link the two competitions where she does not get the edge call or any practice videos where she does a true 3lz with a perfect outside edge, and discuss about how that 3lutz is a legit one. Did not get a edge call (for who knows what reason), does not mean Asada really did a true 3lz at the time. Similarly, Yuna got bogus edge call on her 3Flip does not mean that her 3F is not text-book perfect at the time. Bottom line, Asada has not master the technique of a true 3lutz yet.
    3, There is definitely a huge difference between a GOE+2 jump and a GOE+0 jump. Every amateur skater can land a 3 jump with a fair amount of training, however, land a high and flying 3 jump like competitive skaters do in their warm-up is difficult. Now that is the "difficulty" difference between +2 and +0 jumps. If you think a bauer-2A is easy and an easy huge point getter, why not more skaters attempt it. why not Asada attempt it.

    Therefore, TES is the best measurement of difficulty (including spins and step sequence and GOE for either as well). The skater whoever gets the highest TES has the most difficulty.

  10. #85
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,298
    Not necessarily. A lot of second-tier skaters perform elements better than senior skaters who are given +1/2/3 regardless of how well they do a jump. A well-executed 2A by a junior will score as much than an okay 2A by a senior. Several favourites get +2 on spins whereas younger skaters with faster rotations and more interesting positions will just get a 0 or maybe +1. If GOE is scored fairly then yes TES is an indication of the technically superior skater but that's idealistic.

  11. #86
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    654
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Not necessarily. A lot of second-tier skaters perform elements better than senior skaters who are given +1/2/3 regardless of how well they do a jump. A well-executed 2A by a junior will score as much than an okay 2A by a senior. Several favourites get +2 on spins whereas younger skaters with faster rotations and more interesting positions will just get a 0 or maybe +1. If GOE is scored fairly then yes TES is an indication of the technically superior skater but that's idealistic.
    It has been noted by many, including prominent skating professionals, that the scrutiny that jumps get for edge calls/downgrades can often be harsher in the junior ranks than for the prominent seniors. Until the day comes when BV calls are made by appropriately sophisticated AI supercomputers using real-time motion measurement technology, it is the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.

    There is nothing "idealistic" about saying that TES is the indication of the technically superior jumper. We simply need to recognize that there is a certain amount of measurement imprecision in all aspects of TES measurement, including BV and GOE.

  12. #87
    Custard Title
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    993
    Quote Originally Posted by yyyskate View Post
    1, Yuna has done perfect 3lo besides the 2 competitions in 2007, please check her earlier competitions. Also, there are plenty of videos showed her perfect 3lo in practice. the reason why Yuna does not do 3lo nowadays, is solely due to injury. Not because of technique issue. She has mastered the technique of a 3lo well.
    2, Asada can never do a true 3lz in her career so far. Please link the two competitions where she does not get the edge call or any practice videos where she does a true 3lz with a perfect outside edge, and discuss about how that 3lutz is a legit one. Did not get a edge call (for who knows what reason), does not mean Asada really did a true 3lz at the time. Similarly, Yuna got bogus edge call on her 3Flip does not mean that her 3F is not text-book perfect at the time. Bottom line, Asada has not master the technique of a true 3lutz yet.
    3, There is definitely a huge difference between a GOE+2 jump and a GOE+0 jump. Every amateur skater can land a 3 jump with a fair amount of training, however, land a high and flying 3 jump like competitive skaters do in their warm-up is difficult. Now that is the "difficulty" difference between +2 and +0 jumps. If you think a bauer-2A is easy and an easy huge point getter, why not more skaters attempt it. why not Asada attempt it.

    Therefore, TES is the best measurement of difficulty (including spins and step sequence and GOE for either as well). The skater whoever gets the highest TES has the most difficulty.
    1. In her senior career, Kim has done a good 3Loop in competition twice. Even in her junior career, it was a hit or miss jump for her especially when it was the required jump in her SP, though she did land it several times each season in 2004-2006.
    2. Asada did not get an edge call for an obvious flutz (nor did Wagner) at 2012 4CC, so I simply discounted that one. In 2008 she landed clean Lutzes at NHK and the GPF (where she got a bogus < call on her 3-3, so it's not as if the panel there was particularly lenient on her). She lost the Lutz and her flip got worse the next year due to growth issues/decline in technique, but she was still landing clean 3Lutz in practice at 2009 Worlds.
    3. If we're talking about difficult entries, Asada has in the past done a 2A out of a spread eagle, she often does steps into triple flip combinations, and she has also gotten +2 GOE on a 2A-3T. Again, TES is the best measurement of completed difficulty combined with execution, but it is not the best measurement of overall difficulty. For example, it's difficult to rotate two quad toes and two triple Axels while falling on them (like Chan) and also probably more difficult to complete a scratchy Tano 3Lutz out of steps than it is to land a plain 3Lutz well - the latter will obviously get higher GOE.

  13. #88
    Lifelong Adam Fan KwanIsALegend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    293
    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    big jumps,
    skating skills ok - not loving her bent and weak ankles in skating,
    nice speed
    lack of flexibility
    mostly an expression of only 1 facial type involving frowning of eyebrows

    overall not perfect
    Weak spirals, sit spin too high and copies Michelle Kwans choreography.
    But I still love her skating, she is a gem. To those Olympic champs who grabbed the gold and ran she is a true champion. She not only came back but came with her solid arsenal of jumps.

    A Michelle, Yuna hybrid would be phenomenal.

  14. #89
    Adiós Melon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    522
    Quote Originally Posted by KwanIsALegand View Post
    Weak spirals, sit spin too high and copies Michelle Kwans choreography.
    But I still love her skating, she is a gem. To those Olympic champs who grabbed the gold and ran she is a true champion. She not only came back but came with her solid arsenal of jumps.

    A Michelle, Yuna hybrid would be phenomenal.
    Which choreography did Yuna copy

  15. #90
    Lifelong Adam Fan KwanIsALegend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    293
    Quote Originally Posted by Melon View Post
    Which choreography did Yuna copy
    I'm not good at doing the short clips of You Tube vids but I will do my best to show you.

Page 6 of 9 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •