Ice Dance FD - 2014 Russian Championships

elif said:

I noticed this at the beginning of the season. They have sitting position in the first lift too. ISU has questions-answers section. I can't find this after the change of ISU website.

I find

http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013 ISU Ice Dancing Q&A 2.pdf

In a Lift, the lifted partner moves through sitting on the lifting partner’s shoulder or back without sustaining this sitting pose. Is this considered as an Illegal Element/Movement by the Technical Panel?

No. Rule 604, paragraph 16 refers to “sitting” as a sustained pose. This clarification applies also to all other movements/poses defined as illegal, as long as the movement/pose is not sustained.​

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Thank you.
It is very difficult to find rules since the ISU website changed, it makes me crazy sometimes. :disapp:

I really didn't notice the first lift , but after reading that answer / question, I am even more confused. OK, in third lift looks inelegant like riding a horse (very far from Swan Lake music), but it is OK and legal.

But this ISU answer was about "sitting" like a change between two positions during lift.
But in the first lift where Lena lies on Nikita's shoulder, it is fixed and sustained position, is this allowed???

Sisinka, Here's the link to to ISU tech rules -
Last time I looked, they did not include the "sustained" clarification for anything except those upside down overly revealing lifts. It's interesting that USFS interprets it to apply to all lifts. The Italian team of Guarise & Fabbri got called for an illegal lift earlier this season, and if transient positions thru sitting are OK, it is darned hard to understand why.

www.isu.org/en/single-and-pair-skating-and-ice-dance/isu-judging-system/ice-dance

dorispulaski said:

Sisinka, Here's the link to to ISU tech rules -
Last time I looked, they did not include the "sustained" clarification for anything except those upside down overly revealing lifts. It's interesting that USFS interprets it to apply to all lifts. The Italian team of Guarise & Fabbri got called for an illegal lift earlier this season, and if transient positions thru sitting are OK, it is darned hard to understand why.

www.isu.org/en/single-and-pair-skating-and-ice-dance/isu-judging-system/ice-dance

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I did read same page at the ISU website. I can't find now after the change. I'm very sure that is ISU page. At least USFS has them.

Italian them has a pose so I think illegal movement called for this. Other transitions in that lift are probably OK.

sisinka said:

But in the first lift where Lena lies on Nikita's shoulder, it is fixed and sustained position, is this allowed???

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Other teams are using almost same lift also so I think this is allowed.

elif said:

Other teams are using almost same lift also so I think this is allowed.

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The only notice about shoulder allowed in lift I found here
http://isuprod.blob.core.windows.net/media/104330/handbook-for-technical-panels-2013-final.pdf

...page 40
Difficult Pose for lifted partner (examples)
…i) extended out with the majority of body weight in a horizontal line with the only one additional point of support being shoulders and/or upper back.

But I think that this means that lady is on partner's shoulder only (not touching with other parts of body), but Nikita holds her leg with his arm in the same moment.

What other couples are doing this kind of lift with shoulder plus hand support? Sorry but I can't find some as an example...

sisinka said:

The only notice about shoulder allowed in lift I found here
http://isuprod.blob.core.windows.net/media/104330/handbook-for-technical-panels-2013-final.pdf

...page 40
Difficult Pose for lifted partner (examples)
…i) extended out with the majority of body weight in a horizontal line with the only one additional point of support being shoulders and/or upper back.

But I think that this means that lady is on partner's shoulder only (not touching with other parts of body), but Nikita holds her leg with his arm in the same moment.

What other couples are doing this kind of lift with shoulder plus hand support? Sorry but I can't find some as an example...

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http://youtu.be/k1hEceynWwE?t=3m3s
http://youtu.be/2eDICrfERsU?t=1m35s

Difficult position for lady is ''full doughnut/ring: upper body arched back, with one or both feet almost touching the head in a full circle (maximum of half a blade length between head and blade)'' This one your are saying could be this lift but I'm not sure.

http://youtu.be/1xCHeotq0h4?t=1m49s (You can also see another shoulder balanced lift with hand support)

Or the upside down lift p&b use is supported on Fabian's shoulders, but it does not involve sitting.

http://fsrussia.ru/upl/ckeditor/protocol_rusnat1314.pdf - protocols
…page 27…short dance
…page 31…free dance

Starting yesterday with our talks about lifts / illegal movements...it was quite interesting..so I was surfing through net..I found a Handbook of judges…
http://www2.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-204785-222008-173275-0-file,00.pdf

looking at Handbook of judges…and Lena and Nikita’s short dance and free dance
for step sequence….page 13…
…Loss of Balance by both partners…no higher than 0 (second step sequence in free dance – they both lost balance - judges gave from 0 to +2 GOE)
…Stumble by one partner…no higher than 0 (in short dance Nikita stumbled – judges gave from +1 to +2 GOE)

for twizzles….page 13…
…Execution not simultaneous: two Twizzles…not higher than -1 (all three series out of synchro in free skate – one judge gave 0, all others from 0 to +2 GOE, struggling in two series in short dance from Nikita – one judge gave -1, all others from 0 to +2 GOE)

…one of characteristics in interpretation/timing to get from 9-10 points is 100% correct timing – Lena and Nikita are out of the rhythm in free skate (very nicely obvious in circular step sequence during free skate, sometimes even in short dance)
…a skaters must have 100% of timing correct to get even 7.00-7.75 – I understand it in way that if you don’t catch the rhythm you can’t get higher interpretation/timing then 7.00 – Lena and Nikita got 9.36 in short dance and 9.39 in free dance
…there are even more characteristics but it doesn't have sense to continue, it is possible to read it in handbook

….maybe there are some other Handbooks in Russian or maybe there are some special Lena and Nikita’s Handbook?

I don’t understand it. If there is written what can a judge do and what marks can the judge give if skater do this thing or that thing…judges should respect it, no? If not, it is circus then. Why were all skaters skating their programs when their performances were judged by “who knows what rules“? Skaters could sit in armchair watching TV and judges could send them protocols with marks they were decided even before the competition.
I am afraid of watching other dance teams protocols, I guess that it can hardly reflect what they really showed on the ice.
With such judging Bobrova, Sinitsina, Riazanova, Monko and Stepanova should get level 5, +5 GOE from all judges and at least 120 points for free dance.

Who are those judges? They passed an exam to international ISU judge or Russian judge only? Do they know the rules? Did they forget to read it? How they could give marks which are not allowed looking at rules from ISU judging system?
I don't understand....what sense those competitions have then...

I'm sorry to say that a lot of judges do not always follow the rules-but you should remember that in dance, as in singles, that the judge is supposed to add the different bullets up to get the score for each element, unless the rule says specifically (as in the case of a fall on a jump in singles) that the GOE can be no more than thus and so.

Another you should remember is that many people who view themselves as musical do not have a great sense of timing. If the team is close, some judges put up with it, and don't really know the difference. This is why metronomes were made

I&K blew the beginning of a lift, which means that the timing of the whole program after that was likely to be screwed up. A lift takes 6 seconds, after all...getting things back together is not easy.

dorispulaski said:

I'm sorry to say that a lot of judges do not always follow the rules-but you should remember that in dance, as in singles, that the judge is supposed to add the different bullets up to get the score for each element, unless the rule says specifically (as in the case of a fall on a jump in singles) that the GOE can be no more than thus and so.

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I think that new rules were made to increase a level of objectivity. If everybody would put GOE and levels how he feels like this time and what is suitable in that moment, it is completely loosing sense to have a new judging system. Every year there are new things and changements in rules to make it even more objective (and more complicated), if somebody follows it and somebody not, what it is for?

dorispulaski said:

Another you should remember is that many people who view themselves as musical do not have a great sense of timing. If the team is close, some judges put up with it, and don't really know the difference. This is why metronomes were made

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I can understand that not every Russian judge can notice that some skaters are not able to go with the rhythm. But when we demand professional work and performance from skaters, we should also offer professional judgement. If some judges may passes an exams and that judge is not able to notice musicality or skating with or without rhythm, it is loosing sense of a new judging system again.

dorispulaski said:

I&K blew the beginning of a lift, which means that the timing of the whole program after that was likely to be screwed up. A lift takes 6 seconds, after all...getting things back together is not easy.

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My rhythm issues with this couple take longer time, it touches many performances not only unsuccessful programs.
I agree with you that it is not easy to continue and get back in program and elements after such mistake. But their program is one of the most simple choreographed in this year larger World field. They have many stops in skating, two-footed skating and one-foot waiting moments and many times they are waiting for music... with this concept of free skate, they catched the beggining of their waltz part perfectly. Pointing the rhythm means that they are hitting the stroke in music, it has nothing to do with interruption in skate. Skaters always perform only some parts of their dances during official practises (like a program is split up into few parts), Lena and Nikita had a good luck this time, they started with part of waltz from the moment they are usually starting with at practise, so nothing unusual. (Bobrova & Soloviev fell at COR and GPF in moments which were obviously in the middle of those "practise parts", once just before the lift and another time in next steps after the lift - so it was more difficult to connect with program again in these moments).

I&K had a unexpected fall (almost all falls are unexpected) and then... they should start to fight hardly to get back and made another elements without mistakes to save what is possible. It is champions character - not to give up and fight for every next element after such mistake - the best couples are doing it (and personally I expect it from the best couples and or couples who want to be the best). A program and dance is made from much more elements and other aspects then just one lift. If you fail in one element, you can still hit all others, you can still touch people's heart with the emotions, with the story or dance, there is no reason, why not. Lena was quite noteless from the beginning of the program, she had problems to finish any arm movements, she started with move and lost focus and continued in some other move, it was obvious that she is not in program at all. Then it is not suprising that the mistake and fall came so soon when concentration was not there. It is difficult to come back after such mistake, I know, but real champion should choose this way. If you are a champion you don't always compete in top form (nobody can keep form for the whole season, even many your fans and judges expect you are perfect always), there are always some competitions where you don't feel in top form, but it doesn't means that you give up and skate like the second-class skater.

I know that I&K are still a young couple, but they are already very well experienced (fourth season in GP, Euros and Worlds). They can still learn how to fight. But after the last years free dance at Worlds, this is the second dance in a half year, when they failed in one element and after it....they started to make more and more mistakes and program completely lost speed, energy, power - simply everything what this couple is admired for. It is a disappointment for me, because they are proving with this behaviour that they are still not ready to be a top couple.

I am not angry at I&K, it is their thing and decision how they want to skate, I am angry at judges. I see no reason why to celebrate and putting extremely high GOE and component mark for something like this. If you fail in one element but you still keep the rest of the program in great quality, OK, it can save a lot. But if you fail in one element and then you continue to fail in other elements loosing the whole composition, why are judges trying to give credit for it? The couple doesn't deserve it. They did nothing to show the qualities they were annoucing in 3 minutes from 4 minutes of the free program. They simply gave up.

sisinka, I completely agree with you, but felt a need for some reason to play devil's advocate.

I do feel that dance judges should be tested for a good sense of timing-perhaps they are; I don't know, but I do know that a lot of teams, not just I&K, have gotten high grades in the past with a questionable ability to hit the beat. Quite often, dancers stray away and skate to the melody, not the beat, which is not what you're supposed to do in ice dance, but is almost encouraged in ballet, which often (but not always) uses music that does not have a clearly defined beat.

So despite this being a pet peeve of mine, I have agreed with myself to understand that I am not in charge.

However, I am glad that at least timing is again being looked seriously at in the pattern dance parts of the SD, although not always called strictly.

It's time perhaps for Jonathan to find a partner happy to relocate and start working toward 2018 Olympics representing Australia.