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Thread: Can Plushenko close the gap on Kovtun?

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    Yagudin didn't do anything other than a 4T either, and I don't see your precious Chan trying anything other than a 4T. Sorry, but this argument is terribly facetious.

    Oh, by the way, Plushenko did try the 4Lz all the way back in 2001. He rotated it but couldn't stay up on it. After that he decided not to try again as it was the Olympic season and he didn't want to get injured.

    What the people complaining about Plushenko's PCS at Russian Nationals are forgetting is that Kovtun's were also disgusting.
    It's nationals and we all know Kovtun would be getting inflated scores but at least he executed his content fairly well. But 95.22 points for Plushenko's program with 4 errors is ridiculous.

    As for the 2 quads thing, you should probably see what my original argument was before thinking I'm criticizing him for doing only one type of quad... PTF was saying that I thought Goebel was a better jumper than Plushenko, and while that's totally false and I think overall Plushenko is a better jumper, I was saying Goebel had aspects to his jumping that were better than Plushenko.... one being his ability to land 3 quads in programs due to his ability to do two different quads, which Plushenko (and yes, other men who do only 1 type of quad, including Chan and Yagudin) never did in competition.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    The new system destroyed the Russians for years. They need to build their whole skating on new fundaments.
    ALL countries were in equal position regarding the new system, in my opinion.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Nijinsky is pure magic you can't belittle it with any crooked reasoning.

    I understand. I just want to enjoy the skating as most of Fs fans. I hope when a team doing the programs they want to make it for us, not for you,because the arena would be emptier than today. I think this is the biggest different between the Russian skating school and the North-Am skating school. The North-Am skating school is the winner today,but look at the empty arenas...

    The new system destroyed the Russians for years. They need to build their whole skating on new fundaments.
    Well, it's not like the arenas at Russian Nationals were exactly packed either.

    The new system "destroyed" the Russians because it demanded things from them other than strong jumping, which is why Voronov/Menshov (and to a lesser extent Gachinski who's had some success) haven't flourished under the system. As you said, they need to build their skating on new fundamentals as in more attention to transitions and spins and program choreography... just jumps aren't getting it done anymore.

    As Jaana said, all countries were in a position to benefit from the new system. We shouldn't blame the North Americans/Japanese for actually taking advantage and creating well-rounded skaters... the Russians have only themselves to blame for not adequately developing the other important aspects of figure skating beyond jumps.

    Only Kovtun has been the breakout skater who's been able to adapt to that (and not become solely a jumping clone), and we can see that his programs are actually choreographed with intricacy (along with the big ticket jumps)... no surprise that he's medalled twice on the GP, defeated Plushenko at Nationals, and is a heavy favourite going into Euros. His style isn't North American either (unless you want to define well-rounded programs/skaters as "North American" )... he clearly has artistry that is distinct from Plu/the other Russians, but has a European flair to it (like a Lambiel or Yagudin).

  4. #109
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Well, it's not like the arenas at Russian Nationals were exactly packed either.

    The new system "destroyed" the Russians because it demanded things from them other than strong jumping, which is why Voronov/Menshov (and to a lesser extent Gachinski who's had some success) haven't flourished under the system. As you said, they need to build their skating on new fundamentals as in more attention to transitions and spins and program choreography... just jumps aren't getting it done anymore.

    As Jaana said, all countries were in a position to benefit from the new system. We shouldn't blame the North Americans/Japanese for actually taking advantage and creating well-rounded skaters... the Russians have only themselves to blame for not adequately developing the other important aspects of figure skating beyond jumps.

    Only Kovtun has been the breakout skater who's been able to adapt to that (and not become solely a jumping clone), and we can see that his programs are actually choreographed with intricacy (along with the big ticket jumps)... no surprise that he's medalled twice on the GP, defeated Plushenko at Nationals, and is a heavy favourite going into Euros. His style isn't North American either (unless you want to define well-rounded programs/skaters as "North American" )... he clearly has artistry that is distinct from Plu/the other Russians, but has a European flair to it (like a Lambiel or Yagudin).
    Yes, the Sochi arena wasn't full. Probably the FS's popularity is going down in Russia, too. Plus the competiton was in Sochi not in Moscow or any other great cities. Who knows?
    And again, you have a taste. You dont like Plushy's program because you think they aren't well-choreographed programs.. OK. This is your opinion. I just don't understand... why are so popular Plushy's programs on Youtube? Why do love the people? Do you think the Dark eyes program( Senorita showed it to you, and listen to the American commentators) isn't a good program? I like every moments in it. Plus he had impact on people you can't take your eyes off him... this is the most important.
    About your well-choreographed programs..... sometimes I ask míself why the skater is doing that? That is so unnecessary! What he/ she wants to express with that motion? Can't express with it nothing, just does it because she/he wants to COllect Points. I don't speak about every skaters.

  5. #110
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    I havent seen Yagudin live, but Kovtun is far far far away from anyhthing of Lambiel, I guess Yagudin too.

  6. #111
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    The Russian system under 6.0 is being compared to the Chinese system under 6.0 and that's disgustingly false. China said basically quads first and everything else second. Russia has has focused on skating skills jumps artistry and when plushenko was doing the beilman that reflected a recognition that spins were vital. Csg is being grotesquely inaccurate and the posts are completely disgraceful and disgustingly false and lie filled.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Yes, the Sochi arena wasn't full. Probably the FS's popularity is going down in Russia, too. Plus the competiton was in Sochi not in Moscow or any other great cities. Who knows?
    And again, you have a taste. You dont like Plushy's program because you think they aren't well-choreographed programs.. OK. This is your opinion. I just don't understand... why are so popular Plushy's programs on Youtube? Why do love the people? Do you think the Dark eyes program( Senorita showed it to you, and listen to the American commentators) isn't a good program? I like every moments in it. Plus he had impact on people you can't take your eyes off him... this is the most important.
    About your well-choreographed programs..... sometimes I think why the skater is doing that? That is so unnecessary! What he/ she wants to express with that motion? Can't express with it nothing, just does it because she/he wants to COllect Points. I don't speak about every skater.
    I don't like them because most of them aren't well-choreographed. But it's understandable that other people like him because they like his style of performance and his programs are still entertaining (particularly his exhibitions). I did like his Euros 2012 performances, and I can acknowledge when certain programs of his do have better choreography -- but my definition of choreography isn't fundamentally the theatrics... it's the actual movements between the jumps that exhibit good skating, good fundamentals, good variety. I'm actually glad for the IJS because people tend to think good interpretation/expression = good choreography. To show the distinction, Plushenko's expression during the breaks at the beginning of Nijinksy is good, but when if you call a spade a spade, the beginning is essentially stroking-jump-two foot glide, followed by stroking-jump-break, followed by stroking-jump-break.

    Notice that it's Choreography/Composition... it's about how a program is structured and the inherent difficulty between elements.

  8. #113
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    To show the distinction, Plushenko's expression during the breaks at the beginning of Nijinksy is good, but when if you call a spade a spade, the beginning is essentially stroking-jump-two foot glide, followed by stroking-jump-break, followed by stroking-jump-break.

    Notice that it's Choreography/Composition... it's about how a program is structured and the inherent difficulty between elements.
    Who cares of it if the people want to cry after seeing? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEJXkfMYTX4

    some new posts:

    "I think I might be crying from the sheer beauty of this."

    "Wow, it's amazing! I've never seen anything like it before in my life. So beautiful that it took my breath away! Plushenko gave a flawless performance and he made history with it. That's Art!"

    "There never was anybody like him, never will be, spasiba."

  9. #114
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    I don't get that emotional watching his skates, personally, but that's great if he evokes those feelings in his fans.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I don't get that emotional watching his skates, personally, but that's great if he evokes those feelings in his fans.
    Do you get emotional watching anyone's skates? Not necessarily to the point of feeling weepy - but emotional? This isn't meant as criticism - I'm merely curious. I get the impression that you watch skating from a more... for lack of a better word presenting itself... intellectual perspective. Figure skating can be enjoyed in a lot of ways - and I think that is one of the great things about it - and different things "speak" to different people. But sometimes I think that in a discussion this can lead to people talking at cross purposes, as they aren't coming from the same place, so to speak.

  11. #116
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LRK View Post
    Do you get emotional watching anyone's skates? Not necessarily to the point of feeling weepy - but emotional? This isn't meant as criticism - I'm merely curious. I get the impression that you watch skating from a more... for lack of a better word presenting itself... intellectual perspective. Figure skating can be enjoyed in a lot of ways - and I think that is one of the great things about it - and different things "speak" to different people. But sometimes I think that in a discussion this can lead to people talking at cross purposes, as they aren't coming from the same place, so to speak.
    I like this topic...I think I'm going to start a new thread.. Hope that's OK, I think it will yield interesting discussion.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I like this topic...I think I'm going to start a new thread.. Hope that's OK, I think it will yield interesting discussion.
    Oh, absolutely! I'll be looking forward to reading the ensuing discussion.

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