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Thread: Can Plushenko close the gap on Kovtun?

  1. #91
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    It's not about artistry it's about cop and following the rules that get the most points. Like the best pcs always means the person was most artistic? Yeah right! Chan is not artistic! But chan has all tr and ch and PE of tr and ch but lacks artistry. He was just a nichol robot and that's not artistry that's he point system. Russia must stop believing in their old artistry being applied to skating and be cop robots.
    I'm tired of CSG's stubbornness in this matter. Plushy is artistry in own way in own style..The judges and commentators also thought that..even in North-Am too already in Plushy's early age. In 2006 happened something..and in N-A begun to repeat this, and many people forgot about his second scores. This is not question in Russia and Plushy is an elegant skater. Yes, Kovtun has better choreography, but that is not makes him more artistry, and his jumps aren't too beautiful. He is a juniorish skater today.

  2. #92
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Maybe since Plushenko cut the most of the mullet, his super power evaporated.

  3. #93
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    CSG is so completely delusional he actually believes:

    1. Plushenko in his prime (1999-2006) would be losing to people like Fernandez if both skated cleanly (I dont mean now, of course he would now, but not back then).
    2. Tim Goebel is overall a better jumper than Plushenko.
    3. Patrick Chan will be remembered as a greater artist than skaters like Lambiel, Takahashi, and Buttle.
    4. Patrick Chan is not a controversial figure in the sport at all, and most skating fans Worldwide agree with his scores and results (bwahahahaha)
    5. Hanyu winning the LP at the GPF is the most controversial result in skating this quadrennial, and it made no sense his PCS would naturally greatly raise from awful performances (Bompard, Skate Canada) to there, and was all due to being in Japan.
    6. Plushenko in his prime even is nothing but a jumping bean, a Chinese skater clone with more political clout and consistency.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    I'm tired of CSG's stubbornness in this matter. Plushy is artistry in own way in own style..The judges and commentators also thought that..even in North-Am too already in Plushy's early age. In 2006 happened something..and in N-A begun to repeat this, and many people forgot about his second scores. This is not question in Russia and Plushy is an elegant skater. Yes, Kovtun has better choreography, but that is not makes him more artistry, and his jumps aren't too beautiful. He is a juniorish skater today.
    I think you and gmyers missed my point. Skaters like Voronov, Menshov and Gachinski are all skaters who have lacked quality choreography and have relied on jumps. If you look at Plushenko's 2006 Olympics LP it is completely devoid of any difficulty or intricacy between the jumps. And that easily wins so it's no surprise when good jumps becomes the standard (after all, it's a huge reason Gachinski won his Worlds bronze)... do all the jumps and the judges will take care of the rest... never mind transitions or spins. "Unfortunately", the new system is designed to reward all around skaters, as well as intricate programs. This mentality of doing the jumps is enough to win might have worked under 6.0, but not now. It's so ironic that Chan is accused of being a CoP robot when Plushenko's skates in 2006, 2010, and now 2013/2014 again, couldn't have been any more robotic and devoid of choreography. Like, compare Plu's 2012 Euro LP to this year's. Everyone on here acknowledged his SP at Nationals was well-jumped but the rest of the program was nothing. It's no surprise Kovtun beat him - it is, however, a surprise that people are calling Kovtun a junior when he's the one skating the most ambitious programs of all the Russian men. And even if Kovtun fell on every jump, at least there is substance to his programs, unlike Plushenko's SP/LP this year. As we saw with Plushenko's FS, without the jumps he has no program to fall back on - this Best of Plushenko should be called the Best Music Cuts Of Plushenko's Past Programs Pieced Together because he doesn't even interpret each piece of music as adequate as he used to. Even his own fans have to agree that it's terrible in comparison to his Euro 2012 programs.

    Pangtongfan, you think Plushenko in his prime was 1999-2006 but that was a "prime" because he was the most consistent jumper by far. But to me, his prime was 2012 when his jumps weren't at their prime but the overall level of skating and difficulty of programs was actually formidable. He's always had consistency, presence, musicality but the actual aspects of figure skating beyond the elements were not there. If Plushenko was a skater who started out when the IJS was formed he would be a very different skater, skating much better programs.

    And yes, I do believe Goebel is in some respects a better jumper than Plushenko. Plushenko has never landed 3 quads in a program because he has only been capable of doing 1 quad in competition, and Goebel back in the day actually had transitions going into his jumps, balances his jumps much better throughout a program, including quads in both halves of a program. In terms of consistency and quality of his 3A/4T Plushenko is a better jumper.

  5. #95
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I think you and gmyers missed my point. Skaters like Voronov, Menshov and Gachinski are all skaters who have lacked quality choreography and have relied on jumps. If you look at Plushenko's 2006 Olympics LP it is completely devoid of any difficulty or intricacy between the jumps. And that easily wins so it's no surprise when good jumps becomes the standard (after all, it's a huge reason Gachinski won his Worlds bronze)... do all the jumps and the judges will take care of the rest... never mind transitions or spins. "Unfortunately", the new system is designed to reward all around skaters, as well as intricate programs. This mentality of doing the jumps is enough to win might have worked under 6.0, but not now. It's so ironic that Chan is accused of being a CoP robot when Plushenko's skates in 2006, 2010, and now 2013/2014 again, couldn't have been any more robotic and devoid of choreography. Like, compare Plu's 2012 Euro LP to this year's. Everyone on here acknowledged his SP at Nationals was well-jumped but the rest of the program was nothing. It's no surprise Kovtun beat him - it is, however, a surprise that people are calling Kovtun a junior when he's the one skating the most ambitious programs of all the Russian men. And even if Kovtun fell on every jump, at least there is substance to his programs, unlike Plushenko's SP/LP this year. As we saw with Plushenko's FS, without the jumps he has no program to fall back on - this Best of Plushenko should be called the Best Music Cuts Of Plushenko's Past Programs Pieced Together because he doesn't even interpret each piece of music as adequate as he used to. Even his own fans have to agree that it's terrible in comparison to his Euro 2012 programs.

    Pangtongfan, you think Plushenko in his prime was 1999-2006 but that was a "prime" because he was the most consistent jumper by far. But to me, his prime was 2012 when his jumps weren't at their prime but the overall level of skating and difficulty of programs was actually formidable. He's always had consistency, presence, musicality but the actual aspects of figure skating beyond the elements were not there. If Plushenko was a skater who started out when the IJS was formed he would be a very different skater, skating much better programs.

    And yes, I do believe Goebel is in some respects a better jumper than Plushenko. Plushenko has never landed 3 quads in a program because he has only been capable of doing 1 quad in competition, and Goebel back in the day actually had transitions going into his jumps, balances his jumps much better throughout a program, including quads in both halves of a program. In terms of consistency and quality of his 3A/4T Plushenko is a better jumper.
    Plushy 18y.o 2001 he won ECH and WCH under the 6.0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aQdGyJQ1cU or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PWM2NESsGw

    Kovtun 18.yo. under the COP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR9mSSHfb9Q

    totally different, different rules etc. but look at Plushy quality moves and presentation..Kovtun is juniorish today, but will be very good. I don't like Plushy's LP,but we can't see when it is totally ready and perfect...

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Plushy 18y.o 2001 he won ECH and WCH under the 6.0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aQdGyJQ1cU or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PWM2NESsGw

    Kovtun 18.yo. under the COP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR9mSSHfb9Q

    totally different, different rules etc. but look at Plushy quality moves and presentation..Kovtun is juniorish today, but will be very good. I don't like Plushy's LP,but we can't see when it is totally ready and perfect...
    That Euro 2001 performance was certainly a better performance artistically than Kovtun but it's also artistically better than a lot of Plushenko's later work, particularly after the IJS got into full swing. Once Yagudin was out nobody could match his consistency in jumping so he essentially ditched the in betweens and went for clean jump fests because they would win. And why invest effort into program content if you can win without the extra work?

    You can even see how much better he actually carried artistry throughout his Euro 2001 program. I mean look at the beginning, he doesn't reel off four jumping passes in a row, there's actual choreography at least artistically (still a lot of two footed skating and breaks... And of course I can't stand the hip thrusts and shoulder shimmying). But you can tell there's more of an effort when it comes to structure. By 2006 he didn't even need a program to win the Olympics; a clean skate would automatically translate to high PCS scores... and the rest of the field provided no challenge technically. It was only by 2010 that the judges finally started crediting skaters with better choreography (evidenced by his 5th best CH in Van 2010 FS) even if they didn't skate as cleanly.

    Come Euros 2012 he had seemingly learnt his lesson from Vancouver and skated much better choreographed programs with transitions and balanced layout, but then come Nationals 2014 he regressed back to his 2006 jump fest. It's laughable that his SP and LP got better choreography and transitions scores than Kovtun, no matter how junior ish Kovtun may seem to you.

  7. #97
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    That Euro 2001 performance was certainly a better performance artistically than Kovtun but it's also artistically better than a lot of Plushenko's later work, particularly after the IJS got into full swing. Once Yagudin was out nobody could match his consistency in jumping so he essentially ditched the in betweens and went for clean jump fests because they would win. And why invest effort into program content if you can win without the extra work?

    You can even see how much better he actually carried artistry throughout his Euro 2001 program. I mean look at the beginning, he doesn't reel off four jumping passes in a row, there's actual choreography at least artistically (still a lot of two footed skating and breaks... And of course I can't stand the hip thrusts and shoulder shimmying). But you can tell there's more of an effort when it comes to structure. By 2006 he didn't even need a program to win the Olympics; a clean skate would automatically translate to high PCS scores... and the rest of the field provided no challenge technically. It was only by 2010 that the judges finally started crediting skaters with better choreography (evidenced by his 5th best CH in Van 2010 FS) even if they didn't skate as cleanly.

    Come Euros 2012 he had seemingly learnt his lesson from Vancouver and skated much better choreographed programs with transitions and balanced layout, but then come Nationals 2014 he regressed back to his 2006 jump fest. It's laughable that his SP and LP got better choreography and transitions scores than Kovtun, no matter how junior ish Kovtun may seem to you.
    No,no CSG! Don't you remember Plushy's Nijinsky program? That is one of the best male programs ever..pure magic, perfection..good choreography etc. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEJXkfMYTX4
    and St .Peterburg 300, Moonlight Sonata, Tango and Flamenco.. ..he collected many 6.0s with them, but I know you understand the FS more than the judges..
    and I'm tired of your " two footed skating"...that was no problem in that time..but if you wan to see long one footed skating look at this..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ooGFKnTMYY incredible entertaning.

  8. #98
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    I completely agree with what your saying about Plu.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    That Euro 2001 performance was certainly a better performance artistically than Kovtun but it's also artistically better than a lot of Plushenko's later work, particularly after the IJS got into full swing. Once Yagudin was out nobody could match his consistency in jumping so he essentially ditched the in betweens and went for clean jump fests because they would win. And why invest effort into program content if you can win without the extra work?

    You can even see how much better he actually carried artistry throughout his Euro 2001 program. I mean look at the beginning, he doesn't reel off four jumping passes in a row, there's actual choreography at least artistically (still a lot of two footed skating and breaks... And of course I can't stand the hip thrusts and shoulder shimmying). But you can tell there's more of an effort when it comes to structure. By 2006 he didn't even need a program to win the Olympics; a clean skate would automatically translate to high PCS scores... and the rest of the field provided no challenge technically. It was only by 2010 that the judges finally started crediting skaters with better choreography (evidenced by his 5th best CH in Van 2010 FS) even if they didn't skate as cleanly.

    Come Euros 2012 he had seemingly learnt his lesson from Vancouver and skated much better choreographed programs with transitions and balanced layout, but then come Nationals 2014 he regressed back to his 2006 jump fest. It's laughable that his SP and LP got better choreography and transitions scores than Kovtun, no matter how junior ish Kovtun may seem to you.

  9. #99
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    Nijinsky was arguably his best long program (maybe Carmen) before Euro 2012 in terms of intricacy of the actual program however there are a ton of breaks in that program. His first 3 jumping passes are literally a cycle of stroking around the ice, then jump, then rest (with either a two foot glide or coming to a stop). Artistically I get why he does that but from a skating standpoint it's bad choreo because breaks - especially 3 in a row - is a no-no. Two-footed skating/breaks/unbalanced programs have always been considered a problem. Plushenko was the overwhelming favourite, he went clean in that program, had nice performance/artistry, and was the last to skate in a rather ho-hum competition (I mean Klimkin was 2nd), and it was in Russia, so the string of 6.0's was hardly unexpected even if the program itself wasn't the most intricate.

    Many people look for different things in a skater... I fundamentally look at the elements, skating skills, and intricacy of the program first and expressiveness and theatrics is somewhat secondary to that because good skating is fundamental.

  10. #100
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy;813309
    And yes, I do believe Goebel is in some respects a better jumper than Plushenko. Plushenko has never landed 3 quads in a program[B
    because he has only been capable of doing 1 quad in competition[/B], and Goebel back in the day actually had transitions going into his jumps, balances his jumps much better throughout a program, including quads in both halves of a program. In terms of consistency and quality of his 3A/4T Plushenko is a better jumper.
    Em, Plushenko has done multiple times two quads in one Lp program in Goebel days, and the incredibles 4-3-2, 4-3-3 (less times that). After Yagudin, the norm was (even at recent Russian Nationals) two quads per competition (1 sp and 1 lp). In 2006 Olys Lp he skated an auto mode, I believe he wanted this gold medal too much to blow it again, but i ve seen Godfather skated great in earliers competitions.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Em, Plushenko has done multiple times two quads in one Lp program in Goebel days, and the incredibles 4-3-2, 4-3-3 (less times that). After Yagudin, the norm was (even at recent Russian Nationals) two quads per competition (1 sp and 1 lp). In 2006 Olys Lp he skated an auto mode, I believe he wanted this gold medal too much to blow it again, but i ve seen Godfather skated great in earliers competitions.
    Sorry I thought I had clarified... He only has done 1 type of quad in completion (4T). Also many guys have landed two quads in one LP (not that it's easy, especially under IJS with harder programs and elements). Only a handful have landed 3, seeing as how it requires mastery of two different quads. A 4-3-3 is very impressive though (not so much a 4-3-2 which I'm sure any guy who landed a clean 4-3 could do anyways).

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Sorry I thought I had clarified... He only has done 1 type of quad in completion (4T). Also many guys have landed two quads in one LP (not that it's easy, especially under IJS with harder programs and elements). Only a handful have landed 3, seeing as how it requires mastery of two different quads. A 4-3-3 is very impressive though (not so much a 4-3-2 which I'm sure any guy who landed a clean 4-3 could do anyways).
    Yagudin didn't do anything other than a 4T either, and I don't see your precious Chan trying anything other than a 4T. Sorry, but this argument is terribly facetious.

    Oh, by the way, Plushenko did try the 4Lz all the way back in 2001. He rotated it but couldn't stay up on it. After that he decided not to try again as it was the Olympic season and he didn't want to get injured.

    What the people complaining about Plushenko's PCS at Russian Nationals are forgetting is that Kovtun's were also disgusting.

  13. #103
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Nijinsky is pure magic you can't belittle it with any crooked reasoning.


    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Many people look for different things in a skater... I fundamentally look at the elements, skating skills, and intricacy of the program first and expressiveness and theatrics is somewhat secondary to that because good skating is fundamental.

    I understand. I just want to enjoy the skating as most of Fs fans. I hope when a team doing the programs they want to make it for us, not for you,because the arena would be emptier than today. I think this is the biggest different between the Russian skating school and the North-Am skating school. The North-Am skating school is the winner today,but look at the empty arenas...

    The new system destroyed the Russians for years. They need to build their whole skating on new fundaments.

  14. #104
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne
    What the people complaining about Plushenko's PCS at Russian Nationals are forgetting is that Kovtun's were also disgusting.


    You can actually say the same when people complain about Plush's interviews. Kovtun remarking about inflated PCS at nationals and pointing out Hanyu and Plush as examples was... well, unneeded, to say it like that. Especially regarding Plush it looks pretty disrespectful.

  15. #105
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    . A 4-3-3 is very impressive though (not so much a 4-3-2 which I'm sure any guy who landed a clean 4-3 could do anyways).
    Yes they could but Plushy did it first. Once again I love Japanese fans, I think they are the best!
    Last edited by seniorita; 01-02-2014 at 09:03 AM.

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