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Thread: Skate Order and IJS Scores

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    “Our blade takes us in the most amazing places.” skatingfan4ever's Avatar
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    Skate Order and IJS Scores

    In the 6.0 system, skate order seemed to matter a lot because judges needed to “leave room” for the skaters to follow. For example, Tara went after Michelle in Nagano, and if Michelle had gone after Tara, she hypothetically could have gotten higher marks. Skate order also seemed to play a role in the final standings if the ordinals switched after Skater X’s program. (If any of this is wrong, feel free to correct it). But with IJS, skate order seems, in one sense, irrelevant. Evan skated first in the final group in Vancouver and his point total was enough to win. Does skate order still matter under IJS? At the 2013 GPF, V&M had a great FD but D&W went after them with a great FD of their own and won. Is there anything like a “this is the most recent program the judges saw” phenomenon with IJS, at least subconsciously? Thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingfan4ever View Post
    In the 6.0 system, skate order seemed to matter a lot because judges needed to “leave room” for the skaters to follow. For example, Tara went after Michelle in Nagano, and if Michelle had gone after Tara, she hypothetically could have gotten higher marks. Skate order also seemed to play a role in the final standings if the ordinals switched after Skater X’s program. (If any of this is wrong, feel free to correct it). But with IJS, skate order seems, in one sense, irrelevant. Evan skated first in the final group in Vancouver and his point total was enough to win. Does skate order still matter under IJS? At the 2013 GPF, V&M had a great FD but D&W went after them with a great FD of their own and won. Is there anything like a “this is the most recent program the judges saw” phenomenon with IJS, at least subconsciously? Thoughts?
    Human judging has weakness and susceptible to outside influences, environmental factors, psychology issues, and latency effect. They are not robots, and the ridiculous numbskullness insistence of not needing judging aids, such as video replays, measuring devices, video closeups or re-calibration process between competition or at the end of all judging means it is susceptible to margins of error that can be never be corrected. And such, despite the appearance of absolute numeric measuring system mean skating orders does matter just like before. There's a little bit luck involved as well of how accurate they get it right the first time, before it rolls into a trend of inflation if everyone exceed their previous personal best, or that they falsely bench marked someone half way, and then have to play catch up trying to match relative scoring to that false bench mark. I'd imagine there are also the mind games each judges probably fight internally about leaving rooms for their preferred skater, or national biases (which can be hidden now under anonymous judging) just like 6.0 when judges are told the maximum they should reward someone is 5.9 but not 6.0 until the last skater has skated. This probably affect how much PCS one gets and how many 10s they can get.

    As such skating last might not be a bad thing if the skater can deliver. It is far from ideal either, since it is the most pressured spot if your competitors all delivered. Pressure = mistakes, easy to freeze up, intensity etc.

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    Skate order still matters. Yu Na got low balled at last year's Worlds for being in an earlier group, whereas the final flight with many poor skates received inflated PCS.

    As far as drama goes it makes more sense to have the final skaters in reverse order of placement, although sometimes it's exciting to see if a favourite who isn't in 1st skate last, and see if they can win it all.

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    I'm gonna Customize the CRAP out of this Title!!! Frenchie's Avatar
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    Skate order still matters a lot. Unfortunately.
    With the 6.0 judging system, the excuse to give low marks to early starters was because you have to "leave enough room" for everyone coming later to theoretically do better. That was perfectly fine. What was not fine is that the judges gradually forgot the marks and became more and more generous either way. If the very first skater, like Maria Butyrskaya at the 1998 Olympic's SP, did a great performance and the judge still only gives 5.5/5.5, that's ok. But if a clone of Butyrskaya had skated last with the exact same performance, she'd have gotten 5.8/5.8. That judge "forgets" he gave Buryrskaya 5.5/5.5 and gifts that later skater with better marks, that's not ok.
    That's my main issue with judges: it's not rocket science. It's become a widely accepted phenomenon that the marks go up over the timespan of one competition. Judges are aware of this, but instead of being called out for it repeatedly, they have accepted it as a fact they should "respect", otherwise they'd be the one standing out.

    From mid-1994 to mid-1998, they changed the rule about the starting order in the SP at Worlds/Olympics/Euros: All 30 qualified could be drawn from 1 to 30, regardless of their results in qualifying. That should imo have been the wake-up call to make sure the judges keep consistent marks over the whole competition. It wasn't, it was just a reason to say "oh, well, he/she skated great, but started early, so of course got low marks". So instead of working on that, the ISU changed the rules back to starting groups depending on qualifying group results, making sure the "early starters" aka the "screwed ones" could not be the big names.
    Given the amount of hard work the skaters have to do for years in order to achieve their level, I think it's a travesty that judges are allowed to get to shatter their results just because of the luck / bad luck of a draw.

    I think a big psychological reason why this is taking place is also that you'd rather see a skater smile and be happy than be sad/disappointed/angry. If there's a close battle between 2 skaters, then to let the one who skates later win over the other means everybody gets to see their happy reaction in the Kiss and Cry corner, whereas the other's unhappy reaction isn't shown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Skate order still matters. Yu Na got low balled at last year's Worlds for being in an earlier group, whereas the final flight with many poor skates received inflated PCS.
    I was surprised to observe this, as I would have thought the best skater in the world would be immune from this. I was wrong. Imagine how much worse the impact is for lesser skaters.

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    There must have been something implemented to lowball Kim (eg her lip call) to make the competition a lot closer... "Unfortunately" those plans were foiled when Kim blew everyone out of the water with her FS (and it would have looked really bad to have crowned Kostner or Asada as the winner).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
    to let the one who skates later win over the other means everybody gets to see their happy reaction in the Kiss and Cry corner, whereas the other's unhappy reaction isn't shown.
    Exactly :( This is sad, but it is how our sport works, and it will never be fixed I think: it is normal for the human mind to think "well, this was great but maybe skater y can give me something even better so... let's leave room", in the 6.0 era it meant giving 5.8 instead of 5.9, now it means giving 8.50s instead of 9s. Trust me, the judges know exactly what they need to give to skater x if they want skater y not to beat him/her/them

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    There must have been something implemented to lowball Kim (eg her lip call) to make the competition a lot closer... "Unfortunately" those plans were foiled when Kim blew everyone out of the water with her FS (and it would have looked really bad to have crowned Kostner or Asada as the winner).
    I do think they kept her scores relatively low because of her early start order, which might have altered the judges' perceptions. I don't know about specific plans but those "plans" were already foiled by the end of the SP where Kostner fell on her 3-3 and Asada 2-footed, underrotated, and popped her way to 6th place. Kim giving another flawless FS was just the cherry on top as neither Asada nor Kostner were ever going to do perfect LPs with their planned content, what with Asada suddenly deciding she was going to land an 8 triple FS and Kostner being Kostner.

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    The PCS is still ordinal based (relative) because it has a cap, i.e. perfect 10 for a component that judges can't go over. Otherwise, skating order is nowhere as important as it was under the 6.0 since judges don't have to refer to earlier scores when giving GOE. An example was Shen/Zhou skating first at the Vancouver Olympics and eventually winning Gold.

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    Yuna's Ice Rink cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    There must have been something implemented to lowball Kim (eg her lip call) to make the competition a lot closer... "Unfortunately" those plans were foiled when Kim blew everyone out of the water with her FS (and it would have looked really bad to have crowned Kostner or Asada as the winner).
    hehe.. when i she saw her SP score..you could sense she was fired up.. and woke up yuna.. i guess it was a blessing in disguise

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