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Russian Men prospects

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I have to think clearly if I miss something, but since its late, I m sure Plushenko has the so called hip thrusts in 2001 Lp and 2010 Lp, maybe in the abandoned 2002 Lp that was a Tango too, where else does he have hip thrusts and it is brought so much? Specifically? As a fan of Plush, I really havent cared that much about it and I dont even remember it.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Almost nobody on the planet cares about watching people try to cram in as many edge changes as possible into their skating. People care about skating for the unique, beautiful, "super-human" movement it creates, which lends itself to jumping, spinning, and various dance-like and performance qualities.

Um, a lot of people in the planet care about edges and difficulty of choreography. The judges for one.

And if you think certain people don't care about edges for the art of figure skating to be upheld, then why even bother with doing a variety of triple jumps as most spectators don't care if the skater landed a triple lutz or triple toe. Why bother with a variety of difficult spin positions? Why have 7 or 8 jumping passes when all you really need to show is that you can do a triple, a spin, and the rest of the program can be the "art of figure skating" that is so much more appealing than a program marred by so many spins and jumping passes and technical difficulty. :sarcasm:

Those edges that you see are nuances that people who really know the sport can appreciate. It is important for those who know the sport to understand and appreciate good skating even if the rest of the world thinks Bonaly should win because she did a backflip or Tobel should win because he's funny. We are the curators of our own sport and we shouldn't compromise difficulty for the sake of "watchability".

And let's be real here... Plushenko's hip thrusts aren't actually meant to be interpretive or meant to relate to the program, they're gyrations that simply pander to the crowd. Which they certainly have done a good job of doing. :laugh:
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Um, a lot of people in the planet care about edges and difficulty of choreography.

Yes, but those things are not what I criticized, so you should respond to what I actually wrote. And, furthermore, those things are appreciated more as part of a whole package. There's a reason why there isn't an Olympic competition just for "best edges" (aka figures). Just as there's a reason why there isn't an Olympic competition for who can tie shoelaces the quickest. A sport is only relevant if it measures something considered worthwhile. There are a lot of things to do in life and watching or participating in convoluted skating is not on peoples' lists.
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
You have no idea what legitimate interpretation is, based on this sentence (and everything else you write). It's entirely possible for a hip thrust to interpret the music better than a rocker or a counter. Maybe one day you'll understand that.
[...]

Do you have a real-life example to demonstrate this? I'd like to see. :biggrin:
 

ForeverFish

Medalist
Joined
Aug 21, 2012
I think Kovtun can definitely improve on it, but he already has good musicality, and can really sell a program. I still think his SP is my favourite this year... I thought that Virtue/Moir were the best to interpret/execute that music, but - for a men's SP - Kovtun is absolutely scintillating. I mean, that footwork... a Flamenco can look so sloppy if you don't have that attack and sharpness, and he's certainly got it.

Considering his season last year and this year, it's also remarkable that he got not one but 2 quads in such a short period of time, and with more consistency than a lot of other guys have shown this year (certainly more than Fernandez, Hanyu, Aaron and other attempting both the 4S and 4T). If not for Machida, he'd totally be my most improved skater this year.

In terms of ambitiousness, his program (3 quads and 2 triple axels) is exceedingly difficult... and to think he just came out of juniors. If he stays uninjured and with Tarasova pushing him at an accelerated pace and developing his artistry (thank god he left Morozov), at least his future is bright when it comes to the Russian men.

ITA, especially about his flamenco SP. I just re-watched it ... he nails it right from the beginning. I only wish his FS suited him as well. Someone on the YouTube video of his Nationals FS said that, while the skating was excellent, the program itself was boring, and I'm inclined to agree.

Maxim's made huge strides since placing 17th at Worlds last season. He didn't seem able to cope with the pressure a few months ago, but now, he looks ready to lead the new generation of Russian men. The fact that he beat Plushenko in Russia makes it clear that he's considered the future. And his quads, while not yet at Patrick or Yuzuru's level of sheer jaw-dropping awesomeness, are incredibly tight and fast in the air. Sometimes increasing technical difficulty on such short notice can lead to sloppy, as-long-as-you-land-'em jumps, so I'm beyond glad that Maxim doesn't have that problem.

This pretty much sums up my view of Maxim: A rookie senior who made the podium at BOTH GP events and qualified for the GPF, in an OLYMPIC season? This guy's goin' places.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
ITA, especially about his flamenco SP. I just re-watched it ... he nails it right from the beginning. I only wish his FS suited him as well. Someone on the YouTube video of his Nationals FS said that, while the skating was excellent, the program itself was boring, and I'm inclined to agree.

Maxim's made huge strides since placing 17th at Worlds last season. He didn't seem able to cope with the pressure a few months ago, but now, he looks ready to lead the new generation of Russian men. The fact that he beat Plushenko in Russia makes it clear that he's considered the future. And his quads, while not yet at Patrick or Yuzuru's level of sheer jaw-dropping awesomeness, are incredibly tight and fast in the air. Sometimes increasing technical difficulty on such short notice can lead to sloppy, as-long-as-you-land-'em jumps, so I'm beyond glad that Maxim doesn't have that problem.

This pretty much sums up my view of Maxim: A rookie senior who made the podium at BOTH GP events and qualified for the GPF, in an OLYMPIC season? This guy's goin' places.

Kovtuns quad toe is the definition of "sloppy as long as as he lands it" nobody does a worse one.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Um, a lot of people in the planet care about edges and difficulty of choreography. The judges for one.

And if you think certain people don't care about edges for the art of figure skating to be upheld, then why even bother with doing a variety of triple jumps as most spectators don't care if the skater landed a triple lutz or triple toe. Why bother with a variety of difficult spin positions? Why have 7 or 8 jumping passes when all you really need to show is that you can do a triple, a spin, and the rest of the program can be the "art of figure skating" that is so much more appealing than a program marred by so many spins and jumping passes and technical difficulty. :sarcasm:

Those edges that you see are nuances that people who really know the sport can appreciate. It is important for those who know the sport to understand and appreciate good skating even if the rest of the world thinks Bonaly should win because she did a backflip or Tobel should win because he's funny. We are the curators of our own sport and we shouldn't compromise difficulty for the sake of "watchability".

And let's be real here... Plushenko's hip thrusts aren't actually meant to be interpretive or meant to relate to the program, they're gyrations that simply pander to the crowd. Which they certainly have done a good job of doing. :laugh:

Seniorita does have a point about plushenko doing hip thrusts twice but Joubert also did hip thrusts and if a skater does hip thrusts in a program and can be used to interpret whatever they think the music Is saying or what the theme is. You act like doing choreo that gets he crowd into it and gets woos or squeals is not choreo is ridiculous. Choreo is whatever skater/coach/choreographer says it is. I brought up nonsense moves because I don't feel a lot of Nichol zeuva skaters just keep moving with moves that don't make sense. Not that it's not choreo but I'd rather choreo with posing, hip thrusts, if it adds to the program.
 

mielikki

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 28, 2013
Well well well it's a thread about Russian Men prospects and here comes the second page of discussion whether hip thrusts are legal. Maybe one of you gentlemen could rewatch Men's competition at Ru Nats 2014 and count the number of hip thrusts, and then figure how many are there per skater. You're going to be surprised ;)
 

Frenchie

I'm gonna customize the CRAP out of this title!
Medalist
Joined
May 4, 2013
and here comes the second page of discussion whether hip thrusts are legal.
You say it's already the second page of discussion whether hip thrusts are legal.
Can you find anyone in the last 2 pages having said hip thrusts were illegal? :scratch:
 

mielikki

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 28, 2013
You say it's already the second page of discussion whether hip thrusts are legal.
Can you find anyone in the last 2 pages having said hip thrusts were illegal? :scratch:
Sorry, I used the wrong word. I should have said worth including. I thought my idea was comprehensible.
Or maybe I didn't get the point of discussion at all, and it is somehow essential for the future of Russian Men :unsure: then sorry again.
 

Frenchie

I'm gonna customize the CRAP out of this title!
Medalist
Joined
May 4, 2013
Sorry, I used the wrong word. I should have said worth including. I thought my idea was comprehensible.
Or maybe I didn't get the point of discussion at all, and it is somehow essential for the future of Russian Men :unsure: then sorry again.

LOL I was nitpicking! ;)

I was actually enjoying watching this debate on the artistic value of Plushy's hip thrusts in silence for a few days, to be honest...
Seems an obvious path: Russian Male Prospects -> Plushenko's Influence and Legacy -> Hip thrusts -> The future of Hip Thrusts in Russian Men's Skating ;)
 

mielikki

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 28, 2013
LOL I was nitpicking! ;)

I was actually enjoying watching this debate on the artistic value of Plushy's hip thrusts in silence for a few days, to be honest...
Seems an obvious path: Russian Male Prospects -> Plushenko's Influence and Legacy -> Hip thrusts -> The future of Hip Thrusts in Russian Men's Skating ;)

Imagine Pitkeev standing in the choreo class in front of the mirror and saying
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler to show them edges
And turns to wow faultfinding judges,
Or thrust my hips and thus express theatrics?
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Yes, but those things are not what I criticized, so you should respond to what I actually wrote. And, furthermore, those things are appreciated more as part of a whole package. There's a reason why there isn't an Olympic competition just for "best edges" (aka figures). Just as there's a reason why there isn't an Olympic competition for who can tie shoelaces the quickest. A sport is only relevant if it measures something considered worthwhile. There are a lot of things to do in life and watching or participating in convoluted skating is not on peoples' lists.

Figures showcasing control and ability to consistently trace edges is pretty darn different from showing a variety of difficult turns and edges throughout a program. Anyone with a basic understanding of figure skating knows this.

As for "a sport being relevant if you can measure something worthwhile", then how can the expressive/artistic/emotionally subjective aspects of skating be relevant if they cannot be measured?
 

Jedi

On the Ice
Joined
May 4, 2010
You say it's already the second page of discussion whether hip thrusts are legal.
Can you find anyone in the last 2 pages having said hip thrusts were illegal? :scratch:
Well they could be illegal depending what exactly is going on with those t hrsts.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Hip thrusts aren't common at all and rarely ever done by anyone but csg keeps bringing them up like its the only thing plushenko has done throughout his career and not only that its the standard of choreo in Russia or symbolizes the standard of choreo in Russia and it doesn't and I don't get it but I also don't understand why it's so despised as a choreo move! It's true and I have said basically all skating people in Russia need to study and copy nichol to see what's most likely to get cop points. Pcs has been a problem with Russian men since plushenko left even if they have jumps but there's never been just a focus on jumps.
 
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