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Thread: Russian Men prospects

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mielikki View Post
    After Plushenko is out, Russian men will lose their idol whom they followed and whom their coaches hoped to copy in their students. I guess they will search for inspiration in skaters from other countries, adopt international values and pay more attention to PCS when they do now (in fact, they already started).
    Totally. Russian skaters (and all skaters) should be well rounded and not jumping machines. Being a top skater is about way more than reeling off the jumps. No longer can you say "I have no transitions" or skate like you don't and get away with it.

    The sooner they start paying more attention to program choreography, better spins, transitions, the better.

  2. #32
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    But the FS never will be so popular than in the past...

  3. #33
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    There is choreo and cop choreo and let's not pretend that they are the same. Choreo and artistry are actually beig abolished for cop point getting.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    There is choreo and cop choreo and let's not pretend that they are the same. Choreo and artistry are actually beig abolished for cop point getting.
    Choreo isn't theatrics, it's good skating with an intricate program. The 6.0 system didn't really care about poor spins or transitions/lack of program content, as long as you "looked artistic" and landed all your jumps.

    The CoP, while I agree that it makes some programs not as emotionally interesting, that is the challenge of it - make a program that has the jumps, has the intricacy in between the jumps, has the spins/footwork, and that still offers an artistic/emotional performance. The whole point of the system was to challenge skaters and encourage them to be more well-rounded. To take less breaks, and add variety to their choreography.

    It's weird that you would say Choreography is being abolished for point getting when it's now an actual tangible component in the PCS scores -- i.e. in the past, those who landed jumps but still had poor choreo would still get 5.8's, and it was hard to discern how much they were being penalized (if at all) for bad choreo. Now, you can actually see how much a skater is earning for choreography and it has a direct impact on the final score. If anything, choreography is being improved because skaters can no longer just do the jumps and be given high CH scores, they're actually putting more transitions in, they're doing more than just stroking from jump to jump... well, most skaters at least.

  5. #35
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    Chreo is not movement for the sake of movement and thats was cop has caused to explode! You can see it in a lot of the jr Russian ladies who have been dominating point getting in jumps and pcs. In 6.0 there could be choreo pauses and breaks and some just said it was vamping or posing or whatever and means now cop defined choreo tends to be non stop nonsense moves in chan lysacek 2010 in ice dance Davis and white. I like that Abbott actually has a moment in his muse fs where he just stops with a hand to the ice! Really bold to do!

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Chreo is not movement for the sake of movement and thats was cop has caused to explode! You can see it in a lot of the jr Russian ladies who have been dominating point getting in jumps and pcs. In 6.0 there could be choreo pauses and breaks and some just said it was vamping or posing or whatever and means now cop defined choreo tends to be non stop nonsense moves in chan lysacek 2010 in ice dance Davis and white. I like that Abbott actually has a moment in his muse fs where he just stops with a hand to the ice! Really bold to do!
    Right, because posing and doing hip thrusts isn't nonsensical. You'll see that there still are breaks in CoP programs. But there aren't many stand-and-pose-and-emote breaks as we've seen in the past. Skating throughout a program instead of taking several breaks is rewarded more, as it should be. Any skater knows that a program is much more impressive and difficult when there are less pauses. Maybe certain members of the audience are upset that they're not having a mini-theatrical play each time a skater goes out, but last time I checked, it's a sport and not a competition for best actor/actress.... Olympics, not the Oscars.

  7. #37
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    "Stand and pose emote breaks" are some of the most choreographically interesting and worthy elements in some programs throughout skating history! When plushenko received almost nothing but 6.0 and 5.9 for his najinski program you saw it then. And it such programs by Witt and Petrenko and so many others throughout history who did see that you can merge skating skills of extraordinary merit and pauses and Dance moves well. Hip thrusts can have choreographic merit in many different kinds of programs. I just don't agree with saying hip thrusts never have merit choreographically. It's not chireography just while moving. Posing can't have merit? Why? I have never read anywhere a convincing argument why certain moves don't have merit.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    "Stand and pose emote breaks" are some of the most choreographically interesting and worthy elements in some programs throughout skating history! When plushenko received almost nothing but 6.0 and 5.9 for his najinski program you saw it then. And it such programs by Witt and Petrenko and so many others throughout history who did see that you can merge skating skills of extraordinary merit and pauses and Dance moves well. Hip thrusts can have choreographic merit in many different kinds of programs. I just don't agree with saying hip thrusts never have merit choreographically. It's not chireography just while moving. Posing can't have merit? Why? I have never read anywhere a convincing argument why certain moves don't have merit.
    I give skaters one emote break, no more than 5 seconds. Nijinsky had like 5 of them. As a skater, you should be skating and emoting, not standing or doing a long 1 or 2 foot glide and showing the judges your acting skills and histrionics.

    So, one moment you bash COP choreo (whatever "COP choreo" even is...) as having non-stop "nonsense moves", but then say you've never heard a convincing argument why certain moves don't have merit? That's contradictory.

    And if you think hip thrusts have choreographic merit in many kinds of programs (other than the programs you might see at a strip club, mind you), I really don't know what to say. You want cheesy hip thrusts, save it for an exhibition when people want to hoot and holler and be entertained, but that has no place in any competitive program where you're actually trying to showcase legitimate interpretation. Although I'm wasting my breath... if you're defending hip thrusts, you'd probably defend Plu breaking out into the macarena in the middle of Tosca, probably even call it avant garde interpretation and choreography.

  9. #39
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    If you are doing a Najinski program and do najinski poses than that is good choreo. If you are doing a Macarena program and do Macarena choero than what's the problem? Macarena during Tosca just wouldn't make sense. There is absolutely no choreo that is exhibition only or competition only. It can all be merged and I look forward to lyrics being allowed in Free skates in singles to see what is done. It's allowed it dance and there have been no macarenas but I would judge it when I saw it and have no set idea of what skaters must do. This is what COP is kind of promoting though which is just non stop movement for movements sake in which there are no moments of dramatic pauses or anything. Anything can merit if done well.

  10. #40
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    You want cheesy hip thrusts, save it for an exhibition when people want to hoot and holler and be entertained, but that has no place in any competitive program where you're actually trying to showcase legitimate interpretation.
    You have no idea what legitimate interpretation is, based on this sentence (and everything else you write). It's entirely possible for a hip thrust to interpret the music better than a rocker or a counter. Maybe one day you'll understand that.

    Ice skating is more than an empty vessel that serves itself. Almost nobody on the planet cares about watching people try to cram in as many edge changes as possible into their skating. People care about skating for the unique, beautiful, "super-human" movement it creates, which lends itself to jumping, spinning, and various dance-like and performance qualities.

    Failing to embrace the essential art of ice skating is a death wish for the sport. There continues to be more and more media and sources of recreation available to people. If skating isn't interesting, exciting, and relevant, then it has nowhere to go.

  11. #41
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    I have to think clearly if I miss something, but since its late, I m sure Plushenko has the so called hip thrusts in 2001 Lp and 2010 Lp, maybe in the abandoned 2002 Lp that was a Tango too, where else does he have hip thrusts and it is brought so much? Specifically? As a fan of Plush, I really havent cared that much about it and I dont even remember it.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Almost nobody on the planet cares about watching people try to cram in as many edge changes as possible into their skating. People care about skating for the unique, beautiful, "super-human" movement it creates, which lends itself to jumping, spinning, and various dance-like and performance qualities.
    Um, a lot of people in the planet care about edges and difficulty of choreography. The judges for one.

    And if you think certain people don't care about edges for the art of figure skating to be upheld, then why even bother with doing a variety of triple jumps as most spectators don't care if the skater landed a triple lutz or triple toe. Why bother with a variety of difficult spin positions? Why have 7 or 8 jumping passes when all you really need to show is that you can do a triple, a spin, and the rest of the program can be the "art of figure skating" that is so much more appealing than a program marred by so many spins and jumping passes and technical difficulty.

    Those edges that you see are nuances that people who really know the sport can appreciate. It is important for those who know the sport to understand and appreciate good skating even if the rest of the world thinks Bonaly should win because she did a backflip or Tobel should win because he's funny. We are the curators of our own sport and we shouldn't compromise difficulty for the sake of "watchability".

    And let's be real here... Plushenko's hip thrusts aren't actually meant to be interpretive or meant to relate to the program, they're gyrations that simply pander to the crowd. Which they certainly have done a good job of doing.

  13. #43
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Um, a lot of people in the planet care about edges and difficulty of choreography.
    Yes, but those things are not what I criticized, so you should respond to what I actually wrote. And, furthermore, those things are appreciated more as part of a whole package. There's a reason why there isn't an Olympic competition just for "best edges" (aka figures). Just as there's a reason why there isn't an Olympic competition for who can tie shoelaces the quickest. A sport is only relevant if it measures something considered worthwhile. There are a lot of things to do in life and watching or participating in convoluted skating is not on peoples' lists.

  14. #44
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    You have no idea what legitimate interpretation is, based on this sentence (and everything else you write). It's entirely possible for a hip thrust to interpret the music better than a rocker or a counter. Maybe one day you'll understand that.
    [...]
    Do you have a real-life example to demonstrate this? I'd like to see.

  15. #45
    Miserere Nobis
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I think Kovtun can definitely improve on it, but he already has good musicality, and can really sell a program. I still think his SP is my favourite this year... I thought that Virtue/Moir were the best to interpret/execute that music, but - for a men's SP - Kovtun is absolutely scintillating. I mean, that footwork... a Flamenco can look so sloppy if you don't have that attack and sharpness, and he's certainly got it.

    Considering his season last year and this year, it's also remarkable that he got not one but 2 quads in such a short period of time, and with more consistency than a lot of other guys have shown this year (certainly more than Fernandez, Hanyu, Aaron and other attempting both the 4S and 4T). If not for Machida, he'd totally be my most improved skater this year.

    In terms of ambitiousness, his program (3 quads and 2 triple axels) is exceedingly difficult... and to think he just came out of juniors. If he stays uninjured and with Tarasova pushing him at an accelerated pace and developing his artistry (thank god he left Morozov), at least his future is bright when it comes to the Russian men.
    ITA, especially about his flamenco SP. I just re-watched it ... he nails it right from the beginning. I only wish his FS suited him as well. Someone on the YouTube video of his Nationals FS said that, while the skating was excellent, the program itself was boring, and I'm inclined to agree.

    Maxim's made huge strides since placing 17th at Worlds last season. He didn't seem able to cope with the pressure a few months ago, but now, he looks ready to lead the new generation of Russian men. The fact that he beat Plushenko in Russia makes it clear that he's considered the future. And his quads, while not yet at Patrick or Yuzuru's level of sheer jaw-dropping awesomeness, are incredibly tight and fast in the air. Sometimes increasing technical difficulty on such short notice can lead to sloppy, as-long-as-you-land-'em jumps, so I'm beyond glad that Maxim doesn't have that problem.

    This pretty much sums up my view of Maxim: A rookie senior who made the podium at BOTH GP events and qualified for the GPF, in an OLYMPIC season? This guy's goin' places.

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