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Thread: In the history of the Olympics, was anyone robbed?

  1. #166
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    I love B&S,however they made some spectacular mistakes in the long program, especially with that fall on the dismount of the lift right at the end. Woetz and Steuer were steady.

    However I thought that it was interesting how when B&S placed ahead of a clean Ina & Zimmerman in the SP, commentators constantly remarked on how high the quality of their elements were in the SP, whereas in SLC, B&S had a lot of connecting steps and the Canadians basically had a program that was just jumps and throws out of crossovers and everyone harped on how the Canadians were robbed. B&S had one error and some scratchy landings (though landed clean on one leg) and no one bothered to point out how their program was more difficult b/c of the connecting steps.
    Last edited by soogar; 03-25-2004 at 12:46 PM.

  2. #167
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    Originally posted by ID Nurse
    I felt badly for Orser, since I felt he was robbed in 84, but since in 88 the tie-breaker was the technical mark, and Boitano had the more difficult technical program, the correct Brian won the Gold that night.
    I totally agree. Orser deserved the gold in 1984, but if he'd won the gold in 1988, that would've been the ultimate robbery. Whether you like his skating or not, I don't see how anyone can say that Boitano didn't deserve to win that night.

    On the subject of Katarina v. Debi, I wouldn't have given either one the gold. Liz Manley would've gotten my vote.

  3. #168
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    Originally posted by frozetoez

    On the subject of Katarina v. Debi, I wouldn't have given either one the gold. Liz Manley would've gotten my vote.
    Liz did win the free skate. She didn't win the gold because of the Short program and figures.

    Same thing with Scott Hamilton and Brian Orser

    As well as Trixie Schuba and Janet Lynn

    The right skater won the free, but because figures counted so much, as the rules were at the time, the right skater ended up winning the gold medal.

  4. #169
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    Originally posted by soogar
    I love B&S,however they made some spectacular mistakes in the long program, especially with that fall on the dismount of the lift right at the end. Woetz and Steuer were steady.
    I watched the two performances yesterday and I made some notes. Wotzel & Steuer didn't fall, but they did have several mistakes. This is what I put:

    Wotzel & Steuer:
    * Wotzel stepped out of the 2axel
    * Wotzel two-footed the throw 3toe
    * Loss of unison on the sbs spins
    * Wotzel jerked forward on the landing of the throw 2axel
    * No footwork sequence (I think)
    * Steuer looked like he made an error on the 2nd pair spin, putting his free foot down etc
    * The difficulty of the lifts - I'm no expert on pairs lifts, but one imparticular that I noticed was that both teams did a lasso into a star lift, but W&S did it all with 2 hands whereas B&S went to one hand

    Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze:
    * Berezhnaya landed forwards on the twist
    * However, despite the mistake on the twist, the difference in quality was huge. Whereas Wotzel barely left Steuer's hands, Berezhnaya rocketed up into the air, and also had an amazing delay on the rotation.
    * Their second sbs jumps (both teams did clean 3toes) were 2axel-2toes, whereas W&S just did 2axels (and had the mistake).
    * Both of B&S's throws were more difficult than W&S's (3loop and 3salchow vs. 3toe and 2axel). Plus B&S's throws were twice the size.
    * Berezhnaya's throw salchow landing was amazing, and on the 3loop she kicked her landing foot with her free leg but managed to hold a clean landing anyway.
    * B&S had better centring on the pair spin(s).
    * B&S had a somersault exit from one of their lifts.
    * B&S had more difficult sbs spins (flying camel-back sit vs. regular camel-back sit).
    * B&S fell off the landing edge of the final lift, but both held the landing edge cleanly before the trip.

    So B&S did have one fall whereas W&S didn't, but when you take everything into account, W&S wuz not robbed, IMO.
    Last edited by icenut84; 03-26-2004 at 05:30 PM.

  5. #170
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    Originally posted by icenut84
    Hey Rgirl!
    You're totally right. Apples and oranges. Agree to disagree. As for Phil Hersh - just becausehe can't understand it, doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the Olympics, lol. It may be *difficult* to judge fairly, but I think that with enough training, and honesty, and trying hard to be objective and to look at every routine fr what it is - it can be judged. Not easy, but it can be done. (And probably the reason they have 9 judges rather than just 1 is so that they can get the best and most reliable answer, since a single judge can have an opinion that goes against a majority. Kind of thing.)


    Hey Back Atcha Icenut
    I should have clarified that I don't agree with Phil Hersh, that I was just using him as a well-known example of why a lot of people don't feel ice dancing should be a sport. ITA with you and Mathman. Both of you said what I neglected to better than I could have, anyroad.

    Also, I had another thought about G&P - I think in my post I said that their lifts weren't as good or aesthetic as they could have been, and I htink that's one of the things that kind of unconsciously stuck out to me. Mainly Grishuk's lack of extension (not only in the lifts but in the whole programme, really), and I also saw quite a bit of toe-pushing from both of them. Don't get me wrong, extension isn't the be-all and end-all for me, but in ice dance it *is* important and it does make a noticeable difference in the whole performance. Even in a rock & roll, where obviously extension isn't as consciously noticeable as it would be in a balletic programme, it's still important. And the toe-pushing is an issue of technical quality.

    I agree with both your points about Grishuk's extension and the toe pushing. However, I think what G/P brought to "Rock 'n Roll" is great speed, speed that had never been seen in ice dancing before. Anything you do at higher speeds than your competition is going to be more difficult and the rest of their technique was good enough that I don't think it detracted as much as the speed added to the impression and overall quality of the program. Also, and I think this is where politics comes into the results, speed looks more *athletic* and given the kind of criticism ice dancing had been receiving, I think at least some judges were anxious to see something that would justify to the uneducated public that ice dance was a sport. Speed fit the bill.

    So, to put you on the spot - what did you think of the result from Euros, when G&P were 1st in the free dance and T&D were 2nd (extremely close with U&Z for 2nd and 3rd)?

    You're not putting me on the spot, especially since I was the one who kept bringing up the comparison between LFTM-Euros and LFTM-Oly. What I said in my post was that I thought LFTM-Euros was "just shy" of being an OGM-winning program. However, I felt G/P's Rock 'n Roll was already capable of winning the OGM at Euros. The only factor that could bring it down was G/P's performance, whereas T/D had both choreographic and performance factors to deal with. Where I do think politics played a major role was in U/Z being at all close to T/D at Euros and in them winning the silver over T/D at Olys.

    My best guess as to what happened is that there were two extremes on the judging panel at both Euros and the Olympics. One was anti-reinstatement/anti-T/D and the other was anti-U/Z because of the hunk 'o junk they had as their free dance. G/P were the beneficiaries because they had a good program; it had a new level of athleticism; and they had climbed the ice dance ladder (they were fourth at the '92 Olympics). I'm not saying G/P won only because of possible opposing extremes among the judges, but I think it may have played a role when T/D changed so much of LFTM.

    One other thing I think hurt T/D. They had all the classic qualities of great ice dancing except one: the lithe movement quality of youth. It's an unfortunate fact that as we age the joints stiffen, the muscles lose elasticty, and the neuromuscular system loses quickness, especially quickness with amplitude. This is virtually impossible to see on TV and even live, most people can't identify it. It's generally a quality people notice on a subconscious level unless it's really severe. I think when T/D went for so many big stunts rather than focusing on difficult syncopation, rhythmic patterns, edging, flow, etc. that they emphasized their weaknesses rather than playing to their strengths.


    While I would have loved to see T&D win the 94 gold, it didn't have any negative impact on their careers at all. If you asked me which I'd prefer - 94 gold or the kind of careers/reputation they've got - I wouldn't choose the medal. I doubt they would either. They're regarded as legends and I'm sure that means more to them than a medal could.

    Perhaps I should have been clearer with my last line. When I said, "I know for you the better prize would have been the '94 OGM and everything else" I meant that I thought you would have preferred T/D to have both won the '94 OGM AND have their unparalleled careers, reputation, and place in history. I would never think you--or T/D--would choose the medal! What I meant was in the best of all possible worlds, fans of T/D would have them with the OGM in '84 and '94, the latter as the icing on the cake of their already solidified status as legends, especially since many people don't feel G/P deserved the OGM. I love T/D and as I've said before, I was rooting for them to win the '94 OGM. But I honestly feel G/P had the superior free dance, both choreographically and performance-wise.

    One last thing: Although I feel bad for Chris that he tried to play by the rules, consulted the judges as to how to make LFTM better, and still got screwed, nobody forced Chris to do anything. None of us were there, so we don't know what the judges Chris asked about LFTM actually said. Who knows if they said, "Just add a couple of highlight moves, that's all LFTM needs to win gold in Lillehammer" or if they said, "You've got to go back to the drawing board and start over to have a chance of winning the gold." I'm making general statements, but the point is, IMO, Chris had been around ice dancing judges long enough to know the vagaries of what they say vs. what they mean. And even if you do exactly what someone suggests, whether it be in dance or anything, the actual result of the suggestions can be worse than what was originally there.

    In some ways--and please don't take offense--I feel T/D and G/P were in a very similar position as Michelle Kwan and Sarah Hughes at the '02 Olympics. Michelle went in as the favorite and with a lot riding on what was then considered to be her last chance to win the OGM. I forget which critic said this, but someone there said, "Michelle skated as if she was trying not to lose the gold, whereas Sarah skated as if she was trying to win the gold." G/P had nothing to lose. Virtually nobody outside of the skating cogniscenti knew who they were. T/D had a lot to lose, or so it seemed. Certainly T/D were the favorites and must have felt the pressure. It's very possible that no matter what T/D did to LFTM that G/P would have won. As it turned out, T/D's bronze medal only made people love them more; they have, as I said, their place in history, whereas G/P will simply be listed for their medals won. In '94 T/D won a prize bigger than any OGM: They solidified their place in history and in the hearts of a whole new generation of fans.

    Anyroad, we're in the midst of quite a Worlds right now, so please forgive me if this post isn't very well done. The results of today have my head spinning
    Rgirl

  6. #171
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    Originally posted by Rgirl
    Hey Back Atcha Icenut
    I should have clarified that I don't agree with Phil Hersh, that I was just using him as a well-known example of why a lot of people don't feel ice dancing should be a sport. ITA with you and Mathman.
    Just a question - I assume Phil Hersh is well known in the US, but for those of us on the other side of the pond - who is he?

    Both of you said what I neglected to better than I could have, anyroad.
    Oh Gawd, I've started a catchphrase. LOL

    Also, and I think this is where politics comes into the results, speed looks more *athletic* and given the kind of criticism ice dancing had been receiving, I think at least some judges were anxious to see something that would justify to the uneducated public that ice dance was a sport. Speed fit the bill.
    Interesting thought. I hadn't thought of that before. Maybe so...

    When I said, "I know for you the better prize would have been the '94 OGM and everything else" I meant that I thought you would have preferred T/D to have both won the '94 OGM AND have their unparalleled careers, reputation, and place in history.
    Well, yeah. Obviously!

    One last thing: Although I feel bad for Chris that he tried to play by the rules, consulted the judges as to how to make LFTM better, and still got screwed, nobody forced Chris to do anything. None of us were there, so we don't know what the judges Chris asked about LFTM actually said. Who knows if they said, "Just add a couple of highlight moves, that's all LFTM needs to win gold in Lillehammer" or if they said, "You've got to go back to the drawing board and start over to have a chance of winning the gold." I'm making general statements, but the point is, IMO, Chris had been around ice dancing judges long enough to know the vagaries of what they say vs. what they mean. And even if you do exactly what someone suggests, whether it be in dance or anything, the actual result of the suggestions can be worse than what was originally there.
    Totally true. Don't know the guy personally, wasn't there, was only 10, never even seen ice skating before 94 (not that I remember anyway).

    In some ways--and please don't take offense--I feel T/D and G/P were in a very similar position as Michelle Kwan and Sarah Hughes at the '02 Olympics. Michelle went in as the favorite and with a lot riding on what was then considered to be her last chance to win the OGM. I forget which critic said this, but someone there said, "Michelle skated as if she was trying not to lose the gold, whereas Sarah skated as if she was trying to win the gold." G/P had nothing to lose. Virtually nobody outside of the skating cogniscenti knew who they were. T/D had a lot to lose, or so it seemed. Certainly T/D were the favorites and must have felt the pressure.
    Why would I take offence at that? It's a fair comparison - G&P/Sarah having nothing to lose, whereas T&D/Michelle getting all the pressure put on them. Where the comparisons end though, is for Michelle the pressure got to her in the LP and she made mistakes. I remember Torvill once saying (maybe in an interview) that she was really nervous/under pressure at first, but then when they started their FD, it took about 1 step for her to think "Hang on, you LIKE doing this", and T&D then just performed all-out. I re-watched my tape the other day, and on my coverage (BBC), they did a replay of T&D's FD after the competition conclusion, with the Robin Cousins and Barry Davies talking about it. Robin pointed out that it was plain that they were having a great time - it wasn't a competition to them, they were performing like they performed in their shows. I think that came across in the performance.

    In '94 T/D won a prize bigger than any OGM: They solidified their place in history and in the hearts of a whole new generation of fans.
    Including me :D First time I'd ever seen skating that I remember - and I remember being immediately awestruck by T&D at Euros. Obviously there was all the publicity about their return, but they just jumped out at me immediately. (When I watched the Olympics, I remember Robin Cousins saying he wouldn't have liked to be a judge, and me thinking "I would! I would have given T&D 6.0/6.0!") lol

    Anyroad, we're in the midst of quite a Worlds right now, so please forgive me if this post isn't very well done. The results of today have my head spinning
    Rgirl
    No spoilers! I'm still catching up with watching worlds, have only seen pairs short & free and the mens short so far. I so can't wait to watch ladies though. (I was shocked enough after seeing the qualifying results.)

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