In the history of the Olympics, was anyone robbed?

Effy said:

Re. Oksana vs Nancy as I remember the judging system at that day, each judge would be acounted as one combined vote, but the term technical/artistic only gave them the ability to review...

If you take the ladies competition at SLC, I think more judges than one was to instantly impressed with Sarah Hughes and gave her a higher mark, than the might have done under other circumstances. She got the title for being gutsy rather than clean.

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I have no idea what the first comment above means. Yes, the two marks are combined in order to determine the placement/ordinals. But among other things, throughout the years under 6.0 either tech or artistic (it varied at different times) was the "tie-breaker" in tie situations. So the tech/pres marks did have significance individually.

Also, FYI as I understand it, the assertion that Hoffman was the "deciding" judge is also incorrect, or at leat not fully accurate. I don't want to review the whole story now, but IIRC Brennan helped spread that idea in her first book.

And the assertion that Sarah *always* had cheated jumps is something non-Sarah fans like to keep propagandizing about innit.

Reverse order was not used, it was a random draw. So it still could have ended up being the same skating order.

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Just to clarify, if the rankings had been different after the SP, the draw order for the LP would have been different (i. e., when they drew the LP skate order that night, the ladies would have gone in a different order when they selected their numbers), and the probability that the skate order would have ended up exactly the same is very low. I'm not saying that skate order had anything to do with the final results that night - I actually think that was one of the least important factors in the final outcome - but I was using that as an example to point out that EVERYTHING on the night of the LP would have looked different if Irina had been in first after the SP. There is absolutely no way of knowing how each one of those ladies would have skated in the LP if the SP results were different, therefore you can't say that Irina was robbed of the gold because of the SP results. If she was first after the SP, she might have skated the same program in the LP, or she might have wiped the ice, or she might have had the performance of her life. We just have no way of knowing, really.

Just to clarify. I understand that in the short program, the technical mark carrried a higher weight and the opposite in the free program. Hoffmanns split would if appeared in the short program have given the vote for Nancy. My point is that in either program it is how the judge placed the skater in relation to other skaters that is the deciding factor. A high technical score to Baujul is not decisive in itself. It is the judges overall placements. f 5 judges found Oksana better overall and 4 judges went for Nancy, it would not have mattered whether the four voting for Nancy gave her higher marks. That was also why the ice dancing Europeans could give that suppising results that one team was beaten by two and still won the competition as the judges wan not in agreement on who was second and third.

Re. Sarah Hughes. It is a matter of definition whether Sarah Hughes jumbs are completed. To her benefit the judges of SLC considered them so.

In all it is better for all parties concerned when an important competition is won with a clean and a god skate. I cannot foret Robin Cousins, haven beaten two of his greatest oponenets said: I am pleased to have won - but I am even more pleased to have beaten them at their best.


Eva

BravesSkateFan said:

I think B&S were robbed at the SLC Olympics. IMO they deserved that gold medal, and even though they were allowed to keep it, they were robbed of being the sole winners that night.

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My sentiments exactly!!! Elena & Anton are grace on ice.

Dee

Danilenko

thvudragon said:

[BI'm also as to your description of Danilenko. She was not suspended for "cheating" as you put it. She was actually punished by her own federation for bias, not by the ISU. [/B]

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I didn't know Danilenko was punished by Russia for bias. I remember people were a bit miffed by her because she placed Sarah 10th in the SP.

Also, a radio station here in San Diego said this about her after the Olympics:

The Russian judge doesn't look like she was ever a skater. She looked like a bowler.

Effy said:

It is the judges overall placements. 5 judges found Oksana better overall and 4 judges went for Nancy, it would not have mattered whether the four voting for Nancy gave her higher marks.

Eva

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But this issue is whether the placements were justified. Even if I gave a free pass to the judges who tied both Kerrigan and Bauil in the Technical mark (which is ridiculous in and of itself), there is absolutely NO justification for 3 judges giving Oksana a HIGHER technical mark. If they had judged what they actually saw on the ice, Kerrigan would have won gold.

And before someone says that even if all 9 judges had gone .1 lower across the board for technical, Baiul would have won it on artistry, I would disagree. Kerrigan was not miles behind Oksana in presentation. Nancy was colder, but so much more polished. Her technical far outweighed any deficit she might have had in the artistry department. And the fact that Oksana's LP is used in judging camps to demonstrate a poorly constructed LP says a lot. How can someone be artistically superior with a badly constructed program?

Judges are human. I believe - with no proof of course - that Nancy suffered from the media fallout that made the Olympics a circus (through no fault of her own) and the judges were miffed. Add Oksana's collision with Tanya S., and suddenly you've got a new tragic heroine.

But taking out all the drama surrounding the event and just looking at the programs purely objectively, I can't believe any die-hard Oksana fan could justify her win. And I'm someone who dislikes BOTH Kerrigan and Oksana. So I consider myself very objective (I was pulling for Yuka all the way!)

Worst robbery olyms ever? 02!!!!!!!

Pairs Should have been:
b/s
s/p
i/z
Ina and Zimmerman are fantastic. They have beautiful lifts...
S/P were dull....it was a good performence for them....but it wasnt artistically wonderful....
B/s had an error, but they were soooo much better artistically that I dont even care.

Ladies Should have been:
SP:
Cohen(only one artistacally and technically good)
Irina(she was technically excelent....but she just didnt have the "sparkle" of Cohen)
Maria(better artistry than Hughes and she landed clean triples, unlike sarah who did no cleantriples at all....)
MK(just no spark......)
Sarah
LP:
Sasha
Irina
Sarah
MK
sarah cheeted all her triples in the entire program and wasnt good artistically either...how should she win?

Skate Sandee said:

Oksana two footed two of her jumps (the flip and her second attempt at the toe loop), had a shaky double/axel as her ONLY combination jump while Nancy had 2 perfeact combination jumps -triple toe/triple toe, triple flip/double toe. Unfortuantely there was no instant replay for the judges as there is today.

It was the TECHNICAL mark that cost Kerrigan a (IMHO) rightful gold medal, not the ARTISTIC mark.

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BAJUL/KERRIGAN - JUMP CONTENT

Oksana BAJUL:
3 Lutz, 3 Flip (doublefooted landing), 3loop, 3sal, 2axel, 2toe, 3Toe (touch down with foot), 2axel2toe

Nancy KERRIGAN:
2flip, 3toe-3toe, 3loop, 3sal-2toe, 3lutz, 2axel - that's it!
(Skate Sandee - rewatch your tapes, there was NO 3 flip-2toe combo from Nancy as you mentioned, actually the 3flip was the one she was missing and which cost her the gold medal!)

So we have Oksana - 5 DIFFERENT Triples, 4 doubles (two 2 axels, two 2toes)
and Nancy: 5 Triples (two 3toes, NO flip), 3 doubles (toe, flip, axel)

Concerning the twofooted landings from Oksana: she twofooted the 3flip, but Nancy didn't even go for that jump but played it safe and only went for a double - so I would say Nancy's mistake was a major one compared to Oksana, who landed all 5 different triple jumps. And her 3toeloop was not landed on two feet in the technical sense, there was only a touchdown, which is not as bad as twofooting a jump. (I think under the old 6.0-system in the SP there is a mandatory 0.1 deduction for a touchdown, but 0.2 or even 0.3 for landings on two feet. I know we are talking about the free skate, but this was just to stress, that there is a difference between landings on two feet and a tochdown.) I agree that Oksana had a more simple jump-combo and only one combo, on the other hand she did a second double axel, while Nancy had only one 2axel and didn't repeat any of her combination jumps as a solo one.
So from that I can understand, how some of the judges jumpwise went with Oskana: it's not so difficult to make jump combos of the jumps you can do well, while not doing the one you can't. However, it's more risky to go for all different triples, even if some of them might be difficult for you. - And actually that was what the judges were looking most for in view of the technical content that time: if all different triples had been shown, not so much for the combos.

skatepixie
I completely agree with you on the pairs results. I&Z were defintely robbed. I don't know if I would have had them in 3rd, but I would have at least had them in 4th. They were MUCH better than T&M.

Evdokia said:

BAJUL/KERRIGAN - JUMP CONTENT

Oksana BAJUL:
3 Lutz, 3 Flip (doublefooted landing), 3loop, 3sal, 2axel, 2toe, 3Toe (touch down with foot), 2axel2toe

Nancy KERRIGAN:
2flip, 3toe-3toe, 3loop, 3sal-2toe, 3lutz, 2axel - that's it!
(Skate Sandee - rewatch your tapes, there was NO 3 flip-2toe combo from Nancy as you mentioned, actually the 3flip was the one she was missing and which cost her the gold medal!)

So we have Oksana - 5 DIFFERENT Triples, 4 doubles (two 2 axels, two 2toes)
and Nancy: 5 Triples (two 3toes, NO flip), 3 doubles (toe, flip, axel)

Concerning the twofooted landings from Oksana: she twofooted the 3flip, but Nancy didn't even go for that jump but played it safe and only went for a double - so I would say Nancy's mistake was a major one compared to Oksana, who landed all 5 different triple jumps. And her 3toeloop was not landed on two feet in the technical sense, there was only a touchdown, which is not as bad as twofooting a jump. (I think under the old 6.0-system in the SP there is a mandatory 0.1 deduction for a touchdown, but 0.2 or even 0.3 for landings on two feet. I know we are talking about the free skate, but this was just to stress, that there is a difference between landings on two feet and a tochdown.) I agree that Oksana had a more simple jump-combo and only one combo, on the other hand she did a second double axel, while Nancy had only one 2axel and didn't repeat any of her combination jumps as a solo one.
So from that I can understand, how some of the judges jumpwise went with Oskana: it's not so difficult to make jump combos of the jumps you can do well, while not doing the one you can't. However, it's more risky to go for all different triples, even if some of them might be difficult for you. - And actually that was what the judges were looking most for in view of the technical content that time: if all different triples had been shown, not so much for the combos.

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You haven't taken into account the difficulty of the jump layouts of the programs. Baiul's program's first element was a 3 lutz. Nancy's LAST triple was her 3 lutz. I'm not sure how badly 2footing a jump means you've succesfully landed it. It doesn't to me.

Nor have you taken into account their spins & footwork sequences. I'll leave the posing issue out of it.

I have a hard time believing that a badly 2footed triple flip and 2 double axels somehow had more technical weight than a triple-triple combination and a triple-double combination. Or how a program with 3 clean triples somehow is more difficult than one with 5.

It's news to me.

Evdokia said:

BAJUL/KERRIGAN - JUMP CONTENT

Oksana BAJUL:
3 Lutz, 3 Flip (doublefooted landing), 3loop, 3sal, 2axel, 2toe, 3Toe (touch down with foot), 2axel2toe

Nancy KERRIGAN:
2flip, 3toe-3toe, 3loop, 3sal-2toe, 3lutz, 2axel - that's it!
(Skate Sandee - rewatch your tapes, there was NO 3 flip-2toe combo from Nancy as you mentioned, actually the 3flip was the one she was missing and which cost her the gold medal!)

So we have Oksana - 5 DIFFERENT Triples, 4 doubles (two 2 axels, two 2toes)
and Nancy: 5 Triples (two 3toes, NO flip), 3 doubles (toe, flip, axel)


Concerning the twofooted landings from Oksana: she twofooted the 3flip, but Nancy didn't even go for that jump but played it safe and only went for a double - so I would say Nancy's mistake was a major one compared to Oksana, who landed all 5 different triple jumps. And her 3toeloop was not landed on two feet in the technical sense, there was only a touchdown, which is not as bad as twofooting a jump.

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I just rewatched both programs...
Oksana's 3flip was landed on 2 feet (2 feet under the judging system=NO CREDIT!!) So I'd say Nancy's doubling the flip was a minor mistake(not really a mistake per se as she did land a clean 2flip and should get credit for doing such) compared to Oksana's majorly flawed 3 flip. Also Nancy did a triple-triple!! Also her 3lutz came 3 mins into her program and was her LAST triple, that shows stamina and should be noted by the judges. Oksana's 3toe was slightly 2footed. So reduced credit there. In fact ALL of nancy's jumps were smooth, clean, and equal speed going out as there was going in(even on the 2flip). Her axle was saved but when you do a triple-triple, and a 3lutz 3 mins in a program, any slight, slight flaw on the 2 axel shouldn't have mattered. Like I said before the 2 judges(Canadian and British) put Oksana in *3rd* where she belonged.

Presentation wise:
Nancy had a mature yet distant program, although she did have the perfomance quality at the end.

Oskana had charm and personality.

Technical wise:
Nancy did a triple-triple, textbook spins including stars into final scrach spin. Smooth deep edges and effective variation of speed thoughout the program

Oksana: Two footed 2 triple jumps, and only a double/double combo. Also while her spins were more original, 2 of those spin were easy(upright spin). shallow edgine compared to nancy. Apperared slower than nancy too!

Neither did a layback spin
(Nancy did a layback position in her combo)



SLC:
I didn't have a problem with the sp results, but one thing is sure Sasha DID NOT derserve 1st as someone thinks in the short. If you call shallow edging and shallow footwork pattern "technically good" then that's news to me. Add the fact that at that point Sasha was a utter new-comer to the big lagues then I just don't see how she could have placed ahead of either Kwan or Sltue. Maria over Kwan in the short??? Kwan had better elements. Period. "Spark" has NOTHING to do with it.
LOL, c'mon skatepixie you put hughes in 3rd behind Sasha who FELL and skated a uber front-loaded program with posing that would make oskana proud. :sheesh:

Hughes dereved 1st place in the long. She did the best 3/3 combos of her life.

Okay, usually I stay out of the nit-picking frays, but I think that Sarah's jumps in SLC were the cleanest she has ever completed them. Yes, typically, Sarah was guilty of under-rotations and cheats, etc. But, after watching both 3/3 combos in slow motion several times, I just don't see that they were cheated in SLC. The lutz was weak as usual, but the 3/3s were the strongest and cleanest she had ever done.

I disagree that Slutskaya was robbed in the SP at SLC. Her SP was front-loaded -- three jump elements in a row -- and she barely had steps going into the solo 3, which is a deduction.

There were at the time, many, many Irina fans in Golden Skate, and I am sure in other forums also. And yes, that Olys was her to win (Kwan was still in the doldrums, imo). It didn't happn.

Sarah, at her tender age, had nothing to prove, but to skate her best. She did. Two perfect 3x3s, with enough aplomb to her up her presentation mark. This is fact.

As a Kwaniac, I wasn't exactly happy with Michelle's skate. To me, she never got into the grip of Sheherazade and worse, Irina overblew the Tosca thing. Irina was as heavy as that music sounding the death tolls of Caravadossi.

There was a poster in GS who no longer posts here, who ranted and raged about Sarah: "She underrotates her jumps" ad infinitum, and I believe that was the beginning of branding Sarah with that phrase.

Too bad, Sarah won, hands down; MK should have been second and Sasha third. Just my opinion.

Joe

hockeyfan228 said:

I disagree that Slutskaya was robbed in the SP at SLC. Her SP was front-loaded -- three jump elements in a row -- and she barely had steps going into the solo 3, which is a deduction.

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Yes, but you must remember, that MK's FW into her triple flip, which was cheated by 1/4, was not as difficult as Irina's (Irina's was clockwise, counter of the CCW direction of her triple flip). Also, every other element of Irina's was far superior to MK's, except the spiral sequence. MK's spins, especially her combo, were much slower, and her jumps were weaker.

skatepixie, I don't understand your assertion that Sasha should have won the SP, or LP. I think she probably had the worst SP in terms of construction. It went mostly in only the CCW direction, and took place in only the center circle of the ice (very little variation, both step sequences were circular). Irina's elements were superior to Sasha's also. MK, her program had better construction, and most of her elements were stronger (combo, spiral, fw, 2axel, deathdrop sit spin). I also think Butyrskaya's SP was better for mostly the same reasons. That, and she has a true lutz and flip.

BronzeisGolden, check the 3sal/3loop again, both jumps were cheated, the loop by 1/3. The 3toe/3loop was clean though IIRC.

TV

thvudragon said:

Yes, but you must remember, that MK's FW into her triple flip, which was cheated by 1/4, was not as difficult as Irina's (Irina's was clockwise, counter of the CCW direction of her triple flip). Also, every other element of Irina's was far superior to MK's, except the spiral sequence. MK's spins, especially her combo, were much slower, and her jumps were weaker.

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Regardless of direction, Slutskaya's steps into the 3F were diluted and there was a hesitation into the jump; had she been a lower-ranked skater, she might have gotten a deduction for not having any. Kwan's spins may have been slower, but her positions were stronger, as was her centering. Kwan's skating was slower overall, but she didn't pump her back in her cross-overs to generate speed like Slutskaya did. Kwan's jumps aren't as powerful. Apart from jumping power, I wouldn't agree that Slutskaya was superior in any of her elements, let alone far superior.

Technically, I think it was a wash between the underrotated 3F and the lack of FW into the 3F. Not to mention the lack of a well-balanced program; front-loading the jumps makes the entire program easier.

Kwanisqueen81 said:

Also her 3lutz came 3 mins into her program and was her LAST triple, that shows stamina and should be noted by the judges.

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Sorry, that must not show anything. There are skaters which can do a 3 lutz in their sleep, while they might find a 3 loop more difficult (Mike Weiss for example), so they would put this jump at the end of the programe even if most of the skaters might find it difficult. But actually for such skaters putting the Lutz at the end would make their programe EASIER! - I've never heard that judges take into account which jump was your first one and which your last one - it even woudn't be fair to compare programmes by the way skaters arrange their jump contents, as each skater has different preferences, which jumps he/she might find easy and which ones not. (This would benefit those skaters which don't fall into the "usual pattern", ie. skaters which prefer the jumps which are deemed to be more difficult but might have problems with the more easier ones.)

And concerning Bajul's doublefooted flip - from what I've seen by the judges over the years, a doublefooted triple jump counted more than a double one (and a doublefooted quadruple jump counted more than a triple jump). - So why should they have made an exception here?
The flip was Nancy's first jump, she could have repeated this one easily later on in her programme, but she didn't do so, leaving the impression to the judges, that she just lacks command of the 3flip. - That's what the judges got from her performance, while they saw Oksana performing that element with an error but still successfully.

Sorry, that must not show anything.

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from what I've seen by the judges over the years, a doublefooted triple jump counted more than a double one (and a doublefooted quadruple jump counted more than a triple jump).

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Maybe to you, but the CoP certainly disagrees with you on the lutz issue and on the 2 footing issue. Landing a jump with a bad 2 foot landing does not consitute a successful jump, and I don't think it ever has. This goes for any skater.

Take Weiss. He landed a slightly 2 footed quad at Skate America, and as a result was given credit for a badly executed triple. Underrotated & 2 footed triples get credit as doubles.

Why did Kristi & Michelle put their 2nd triple lutz as the last triple in their LPs? Why not do it in the beginning or the middle? Why did Midori Ito do a 3t-3t combo at the end of her LPs? Because it shows you are a skater who is in good condition and has "well distributed highlights" and judges reward you accordingly.

I'm not sure Oksana doing a 2toe, 3toe with a touchdown, and a overrotated 2a-2t combo as the closing elements in her long program showed those same abilities.

Just to clarify to an earlier post (oh, page 3, I believe ), people are getting their Canadians confused. Ice Dancers Bourne & Kraatz had a huge fall in their final endpose. Pairs Skaters Sale and Pelletier skated a clean program (with no mistakes , I might add)

Sarahs jumps may have been better than she ever did them, but they werent full triples....