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Thread: In the history of the Olympics, was anyone robbed?

  1. #31
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    IMO:

    1994 - I used to think Oksana's gold was fair, but on repeated viewings of the two and with better skating knowledge, I think Nancy probably deserved to win. I much prefer Oksana's skating, but her LP just wasn't good enough technically.

    1994 - Torvill & Dean definitely deserved the gold IMO. I thought that at the time, and now I have better skating knowledge I believe that even more. Their programme and performance was just much better than U&Z or G&P.

    1994 - I'm not sure Mishkutenok & Dmitriev were robbed, because it was close, but I probably would have given them the gold over G&G.

    2002 - Irina Slutskaya DEFINITELY deserved to win the short programme - I was stunned that she was placed second. I love Michelle but no way did she deserve first place in the short. I actually would have had to think about whether I would have put her or Sasha second behind Irina.

    2002 - Drobiazko & Vanagas should have moved up in the free dance, and Ina & Zimmerman should have moved up in the LP. Also think Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze were robbed of their victory, which IMO was perfectly legitimate.

  2. #32
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    I agree completely that Slutskaya was robbed in SLC. Not to take anything away from Sara's absolutely fantastic LP, and Irina's shaky LP. But Irina should've been 1st after the SP, which would've given her the gold medal.

    I am shocked nobody mentioned the Worlds in Canada, 2001. B&S should've won the gold, no question about it. They behaved gracefully and did not cause a stink about it, unlike some other couple we know. That tells you my opinion about the Olypmics in SLC.

    I also think that Matt Savoie was robbed of a bronze medal and a spot on the Olympics in 2002. Mike weiss did not deserve to be 3rd, but was held up because of his reputation, whatever that may be.

    Yana

  3. #33
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I think the reason no one mentioned 2001 Worlds is that the thread is about the Olympics.

    Michelle should have been second in the 2002 LP, ahead of Irina's lackluster effort. It was clear that some fishy judging was going on when FOUR judges put Irina first in the LP ahead of Sarah.

    OT -- Did you guys see David Letterman last night? He set up a stunt featuring the world champion hot dog ski-boarder. It was almost a terrible disaster, when she fell off the slope and landed on her head 25 feet below, but luckily she escaped with only minor cuts and bruises. Later she said,

    "The worst part about it was I only got a 5.6 from the French judge."

    Mathman

  4. #34
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    Nancy was ROBBED Blind!!!

    I don't mean robbed but the eastern bloc stole everything in her house and then vandalized the place and then burned down her house robbed.

    The dirty little secret is that Oksana got 5.9s for TECH. So there should be no talk about Oksana's better artisty and how Nancy was "cold" because Oksana one on her unfair TECH marks. Some one who thinks Oksana deserved to win...Please explain those TECH marks. How can anyone in 1994 derserve 5.9s for a program with no spin combo with a sit position. 2-footed 2 jumps(flip,toe), only 3 clean triples and only a double/double combo?

    compare that with Nancy who had
    2 combos(including a 3/3)
    3lutz 3mins in her program
    compleate mature program

    I just don't understand, that one, I think Oksana got 2 *3rd* place ordinals, behind Lu chen.



    as for 2002:
    Irina was lucky to get silver. I case could be made for Michelle to finish 2nd in the long and thus win the gold in fact 3 judges did indeed do that. Sadly *4* cheating judges put Irina first in the long, over a flawless Hughes. Irina didn't skate with any attack. She was only into landing jumps. She skated way better at worlds that year. She didn't do her 3/3 and had a shaky landing on her 3 flip, leaning way forward. And didn't a judge put Hughes put *4th*(What waky tobacky was he smoking??) It is really amazing Sarah won with all the cheating going on.


    Still sarah won by a close 5-4 vote. Had the 5/4 been in Irina's favor there would have been a riot in SLC given the way she skated vis-a-vis Hughes. .


    INHO Hughes should have won the LP(no doubt about that) and 2nd place was a tossup between Kwan and Slute's lakeluster skates. But 4 juges putting Irina first was a JOKE, some even gave her 5.9s for both mark....trying to do the Oksana thing again. Thankfully this time it didn't work and the last judge on the panel was the USA judge and not the Ukrainian judge...it was *THAT* close between 2002 Gold Medalist Hughes and 2002 Gold medalist Slutskaya.

    Even if Irina was first after the SP. That would have changed the dynamic of the LP, therfore we can't go by the LP results because who know how Kwan and Cohen would have responded if Irina were in first. Just food for thought
    Last edited by Kwanisqueen81; 02-07-2004 at 03:25 PM.

  5. #35
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    Even if Irina was first after the SP. That would have changed the dynamic of the LP, therfore we can't go by the LP results because who know how Kwan and Cohen would have responded if Irina were in first. Just food for thought
    I tend to agree. I actually would not have minded Michelle being 3rd in SP. It would have allowed Irina to feel the heat of being the leader and allowed Michelle to get into her 'come from behind' mode which makes her almost unbeatable. In 2nd Sasha might have played it a little more safely, not trying the 3z-3t combo and finished with a cleaner program. You never know.

    Irina winning the SP does not make her the Olympic champion. It could have impacted her LP performance as well as others' LP performances.

  6. #36
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    Re: Nancy was ROBBED Blind!!!

    Originally posted by Kwanisqueen81
    Even if Irina was first after the SP. That would have changed the dynamic of the LP, therfore we can't go by the LP results because who know how Kwan and Cohen would have responded if Irina were in first. Just food for thought
    Yes, but than on the other hand we don't know, how Irina would have skated if she had been in the lead. One might argue, that the consequence she had taken after being robbed in the SP was: skate as careful as you can, cause the judges don't want you to win here, so they will look at each single mistake. - So you never now, what might have happened if the SP-results would have been the other way round, but robbed is robbed and Irina should have been first in the SP. (At least I feel that most people who saw both Short programes would agree.)

  7. #37
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    Neither Elvis nor Bourne/Kraatz were robbed at the Olys. Urmanov clearly outskated Elvis, and his presentation is much better. It was an 8-1 split.

    B/K did some of the wrong steps in a CD and had a horrid OD in Nagano. In SLC, they had a fall in the FD and an even worse OD.

  8. #38
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    Maybe it was Irina's payback for the judges gifting her at the GPF leading up to the Olympics? She was held up all season. A dose of reality never hurts. Sarah was robbed at GPF. So was Kwan. Irina should've been in 3rd. I don't feel bad for her. Sometimes the cheats work in favor of the judge favorites, which was clearly Irina during the '02 season.

  9. #39
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    Who was robbed, let's see:
    staying on topic & sticking to the Olympics, I'd say Irina's 2002 SP was worthy of first place, regardless of who anyone *wanted* to win or lose the whole thing in retrospect, i.e. what a first place finish in the tech. program for Irina would have motivated the rest of the field to do. If we're rooting for the best performance to win, Irina's SP was it that night. One poster noted that she might have interpreted her second-place finish as a warning to be cautious; judging by how she went after her short, that makes a lot of sense. And for the purposes of this discussion, it is important to talk about SP & LP, not just the overall result, as each phase obviously affects the result. As for Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze, someone made the point that they came in second, perhaps unfairly, at worlds '01 that same season in Canada and failed to proceed to make a huge stink about it, but it seems that when an "Eastern bloc" skater is on the receiving end of dodgy judging/close calls, it's quickly forgotten, whereas the pairs competition at the 2002 Olympics lives in infamy to this day, over a decision that, for many, still comes down to a question of taste. Regardless of what the judges of any particular "camp" may be guilty of doing, it's important to remember that all the skaters work extremely hard only to be evaluated by human beings, and therefore subjectivity is inevitable; when there's that little separating two competitors, it's easy to forget that sometimes there is no way for 2 people or 9 or a million to agree on a clear-cut first or second. If I recall correctly, Sale & Pelletier took a HUGE spill on the final pose of their SP (someone correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm not sure that this was at the Olympics; many will argue quite vehemently that this has no bearing on the overall mark, just as I am entitled to make the point that B&S's skate, stumble and all, was the superior skate with its mesmerizing choreography and that the gold was rightfully theirs. Just my opinion, which is what this thread, like many others, ask posters to give. As for Oksana vs. Nancy at the 1994 Olympics, it was my first time watching a skating competition, and at the time I remember thinking that Nancy was better; I'm a HUGE Oksana fan now after having seen some of her remarkable performances (1994 Goodwill Games-The Dying Swan comes to mind), but that particular performance of hers, which I haven't been able to see a second time, still strikes me as having been iffy and not quite worthy of the gold. It's disappointing to me as a fan that one of my favorite skaters didn't produce her absolute best, which would have been unbeatable and indisputable, on that night of nights, but as a fan of skating, it's the great performances that draw me to the sport, even above my appreciation of a given individual performer, and on that night, it appeared to me that Nancy gave that performance.
    Let the worms slither on...
    Sarah
    p.s. This discussion makes me wonder what kind of pressure the judges, hired to make a decision at the most difficult contest in the sport every four years, will be under to render a decision approved of by all, seeing as how one of the most beloved, masterful, and consistent skaters of all time will probably be making her final and best bid for gold in 2006; it would seem that teenagers who might be primed and ready to outperform Michelle Kwan in Turin, as Tara and Sarah did in the past may find it more difficult due to a variety of factors, including, of course, Michelle's upping the ante and performing at a new level & without holding back as she has done at Nats and Worlds '03 & Nats '04, but one might also factor in the influence of her much-publicized second- and third-place finishes and how the Olympics have been the sole competition to continually baffle and elude her...any way you slice it, it's going to be an incredible contest, one that will hopefully be as much about the actual performances, the drama on the ice, as it is about all the subplots and how those affect both skaters and judges.

  10. #40
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    Re: the Ladies 02. I would have put Irina 1st in the SP, but behind one of the other Americans (besides Sarah) in the LP. And that would have resulted in Sarah still winning. Irina's freeskate was so lame, and amen to whoever said she was surprised she didn't win because she'd been given gifts other times.

    Joe Inman, who judged that event, has said he wished there'd been CoP because he could have rewarded Sarah more for her performance (instead of having to save possible 5.9s & 6.0s for later skaters).
    Uh, right Joe. Like CoP will keep cheating morons like Danilenko from holding up "her" skater. If anything, I view CoP as trying to negate the amazing, jump-filled wins of people like Sarah and Tara. And I think there'll be even more controversial results under CoP/Sekret & "Random" Komputer.

    [P.S. a little friendly request to folks to put more paragraph breaks in long posts ... makes it really difficult to read otherwise.]

  11. #41
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    Originally posted by NorthernLite
    Re: the Ladies 02. I would have put Irina 1st in the SP, but behind one of the other Americans (besides Sarah) in the LP. And that would have resulted in Sarah still winning. Irina's freeskate was so lame, and amen to whoever said she was surprised she didn't win because she'd been given gifts other times.
    If Irina was 1st in the SP, she still would have been 1st overall.

    Originally posted by NorthernLite
    Joe Inman, who judged that event, has said he wished there'd been CoP because he could have rewarded Sarah more for her performance (instead of having to save possible 5.9s & 6.0s for later skaters).
    Uh, right Joe. Like CoP will keep cheating morons like Danilenko from holding up "her" skater. If anything, I view CoP as trying to negate the amazing, jump-filled wins of people like Sarah and Tara. And I think there'll be even more controversial results under CoP/Sekret & "Random" Komputer.
    Well, under CoP, I can see 4 of Sarah's triples (Sal, loop, flip, lutz) as being downgraded to doubles, so she probably would not have been rewarded well. Same for Tara, her jumps are of such poor quality (they're not telegraphed, but they were very low, and she isn't able to really hold the landings of her triples, always turning out of most of them.) I'm also as to your description of Danilenko. She was not suspended for "cheating" as you put it. She was actually punished by her own federation for bias, not by the ISU.
    Last edited by thvudragon; 02-07-2004 at 08:33 PM.

  12. #42
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    Re: the Ladies 02. I would have put Irina 1st in the SP, but behind one of the other Americans (besides Sarah) in the LP. And that would have resulted in Sarah still winning. -- Northernlite
    If Irina was 1st in the SP, she still would have been 1st overall. -- TV
    She's got you on that one, TV. If the judges had given Irina first place in the short program, but then if she had finished behind Sarah and behind one of the other American ladies (i.e., in third place or lower), then Sarah would have won. If the "other American lady" had been Michelle, it would have been a tie between Sarah and Michelle, with Sarah winning the tie breaker.

    However, I agree with Kwanisqueen and Verbalgirl. We all know how strong Michelle is skating from behind. It would have been a different contest.

    About the pairs deal, it seems pointless to argue about who skated better, when one of the judges came right out and admitted that she voted for Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze because she was pressured to do so by the president of her federation. So why even bother to skate?

    I think the ISU still owes us an explanation. If the French judge and the president of the French federation were sanctioned by the ISU for colluding with "someone" to fix the contest in favor of the Russian pair, who was the "someone" and why didn't "someone" face sanctions, too?

    Northernlite, yes, yes, yes, about paragraph breaks!

    Mathman

    PS.
    "...but robbed is robbed and Irina should have been first in the SP." -- Evokia
    ...and third or fourth in the LP. Robbed is robbed.
    Last edited by Mathman; 02-07-2004 at 09:49 PM.

  13. #43
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    Scott Ethan Allen (bronze) was robbed of silver vs. Alain Calmat

    Brian Orser should have beaten Scott Hamilton for the gold (this hung on their relative merits in figures.)

    Denise Biellmann should have won her Olympics. (this was the Fratianne/ Poetsch Olympics AFAIR. Denise finished behind both.

  14. #44
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    Don't hate me but...

    ...I actually no longer think that Torvill and Dean were robbed in 1994. I watched a 1994 video compilation recently that showed Grishuk and Platov's performance as well as Torvill and Dean, and G&P were one fire. They were fast, intricate, and passionate. T&D were defintely slower, and it seemed like the difficulty was less, although they were very charming, as always. Don't get me wrong - when I watched the competition back in 1994, I thought that T&D were robbed, but I was also sixteen at the time and knew a lot less about skating. Plus, I was also die-hard for T&D, so I was biased. Now, in watching it again, I understand the judges marks.

    I would strongly recommend people rewatching programs, for better or for worse. In some cases, they can confuse you MORE, but at the same time, it does shed light on how difficult judging can be, I suppose. For example, I felt that S&P were robbed in SLC, but after watching the two programs again, I can understand the initial placement, although I still think it's a toss-up and matter of taste. Same thing with the 2001 world pairs competition: I thought that B&K were robbed, but in watching it again, I can again see how you would rank S&P first there.

  15. #45
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    <------watched ice dancing from 94 recently, and my opinion stands firm

    But that's neither here nor there - I think the greatest disappointment for me is that even when controversy erupts, no solutions ever seem to help solve the problems. And in the case of what happened after the SLC scandal...well, I would say that for now it certainly isn't that much better, if any. One can always hope that this is a cycle "bottoming out" and things will improve -

    I've thought that there were many controversial finishes in Olympics competitions - S & P vs. B & S, Kwan vs. Lipinski, Kerrigan vs. Baiul, Hamilton vs. Orser, Boitano vs. Orser -- but unless there's some legitimate reason which is found to re-open the books and overrule a decision, what is done is done. Again, I only wish that having such controversies led to better solutions for future competitions.

    <<<From US Nationals and not Olympics - I agree about Matt Savoie being robbed of a spot on the Olympic team. And for reasons I won't go into right here, there's a possibility it could happen again under similar circumstances.>>>>

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