In the history of the Olympics, was anyone robbed?

icewriter said:

My biggest heartburn with the whole ordeal was the media coverage of it. Personalities like Rosie O'Donnell who went so far as to call Elena and Anton "Russian Cheaters".

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ITA. I know it shouldn't but that comment by Rosie made me so much angrier than anything Scott or Sandra said or did.
At least Scott mentioned that Elena and Anton were great skaters.

-realizing I'm contributing to SLC 2002: rehashed-and runs away-

Re: Re: Some thing judges look for

Skate Sandee said:

Exactly! People are making these statements assuming that the LP would have played out the same way. It's all hypothetical.

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Yes, of course we don't know what might have happened in the LP. - Things might have developed better for Irina but worse as well. But what's the point? Does that mean that unfair judgement during the SP is nothing to complain about? (Like "better dump a a skater during SP or even Qualifying, then he can't argue that he was robbed?" )
The SP is part of the final results, so bad judging definitely has an influence on the final outcome. It's just more difficult to assess what might have happened if the placements after the SP had been different in SLC, but that doesn't change the fact, that Irina should have been in the lead after the short. Bad judging is bad judging, no matter in which part of a competition it occurs.

I have a question about Berezhnaya and Sikharudlize's SLC performance. Watching on television, it seemed to me that not only did Anton have that slight bobble than everyone made so much of, but also that Elena's landings lacked security on both of her throw jumps. Sale and Pelletiere, on the other hand, to me, went out there like they owned the ice.

Am I hallucinating?

Mathman

Evdokia, I think that what people are disagreeing with is the flat assertion that if the judges had given Irina first place after the short program, then she would have won the gold medal. That's the part that we can only speculate about.

Mathman said:

I have a question about Berezhnaya and Sikharudlize's SLC performance. Watching on television, it seemed to me that not only did Anton have that slight bobble than everyone made so much of, but also that Elena's landings lacked security on both of her throw jumps. Sale and Pelletiere, on the other hand, to me, went out there like they owned the ice.

Am I hallucinating?

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I agree, that S&P were cleaner, but that's not all there is to the program. Jamie's landings were also much stiffer than Elena's, who despite the bobbles, had good landing positions, and great extension.

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thvudragon said:

I agree, that S&P were cleaner, but that's not all there is to the program. Jamie's landings were also much stiffer than Elena's, who despite the bobbles, had good landing positions, and great extension.

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I actually have to agree with Mathman. I typically would vote for B&S but I actually would have gone with S&P at the Olympics. I felt that Elena's landings were much stiffer. B&S were heaven to watch in the short, but they lost me in the long. They looked scared and hesitant to me.

B/S's throws are twice as big as S/P...

I agree, and if the only thing that won a competition were technical moves, then why have artistry/presentation scores? B&S's overall program was better than S & P.

mpal2 said:

I actually have to agree with Mathman. I typically would vote for B&S but I actually would have gone with S&P at the Olympics. I felt that Elena's landings were much stiffer. B&S were heaven to watch in the short, but they lost me in the long. They looked scared and hesitant to me.

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It's so strange about the difference in opinions. I remember the CBC commentators saying that B&S were passionate, while the invalids at NBC said they skated cautiously, and lacked passion.

Personally, S&P's program left me flat.

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This thread gives me a major migraine but something was said that I cannot let go of so I am breaking my silence and posting about it.

Re: Love Story. Jamie & David skated Love Story during the 1999-00 season as their LP. In the 2000-01 season, they used that number exactly one time when they made the GPF and needed a second LP for the superfinal (primary LP: Tristan & Isolde used at every other competition that year). In the 2001-02 season, they used that number exactly two times: the GPF and the Olys (primary LP: Orchid used at every other competition). I guess it bothers me when people talk about how they saw this number SOOOOO much for *three* years when in reality, one of those years was the actual year it was their only LP, and in those two years after their big debut season, they only used it in the GPF (which I think just about EVERY other skater/team used an old LP as well in both those competitions) and then the Olys. Everyone is entitled to their opinions on programs and who skated better and who deserved what but I have never understood this argument about LS at all. In the years between 2000-2003, Shen & Zhao used their LPs for two seasons each and no one complained about that. Sasha is using her Malaquena and Michelle, her TFB, as SPs for a second season and no one has complained about those. Victor Petrenko used his one LP for what, three seasons in a row?! It seems like a lot of skaters have used LPs or SPs for longer than one season (and those skated their programs a lot more than J&D skated LS in competition) so I this has never been clear to me why it bothered so many people. It just seems like selective memory to me. Oh well, that could be a whole other topic at this board, LOL

And its probably pretty clear who I was rooting for in SLC, but I too found the way that the comics and media portrayed E&A quite appalling. I have also liked Elena & Anton for a long time so I was happy that they skated pretty great at their second Olys. It was hard for me to watch those folks talk about Elena & Anton that way. They did not deserve that. Make fun of the judges all you want (heck, we do that too, LOL) but leave the skaters out of it. The last people who should get the blame in a split decision of a competition are the skaters. I am just glad that the four of them have put this behind them and have fun touring together and being friends. In the end, I think they did the best they could with everything and thankfully, have all come out of it all right and moved foward in their lives. I look foward to seeing all four of them in SOI next month!

That said, I am going back to lurking in this thread and I am now off to take more Ibuprofin......LOL

Mathman said:

Evdokia, I think that what people are disagreeing with is the flat assertion that if the judges had given Irina first place after the short program, then she would have won the gold medal. That's the part that we can only speculate about.

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Mathman, I'm completely aware of the fact, that we can only speculate, what might have happened in the LP if Irina won the SP in SLC. - And certainly I didn't make any statements, like "if Irina would have one the SP, than for sure she'd be Olympic Champion today". That would be to simple. However, if you look at it from a complete rational, statistical-mathematical point of view, a first place finish of Irina in the SP would have rather raised her chances to win the Gold. (Like a 1st or 2nd place finish of Sasha Cohen in the SP at SLC would have increased her chances to win a medal. - Honestly speaking, I found the judging at the SP somehow strange in general.)

Thanks for the clarification, E.

Still, I think that we have to be consistent and objective in this. If we want to raise questions about whether Irina should have been placed first or second in the short program, then we should also consider whether she deserved second or third in the long.

BTW, I thought that this was an intriguing speculation by Sandee:

If Irina was first after the SP and Sarah skated the same performance she did, Irina might very well have ended in bronze. I say this with regards to the judges that believed Sarah should win, who would have worked their ordinals to support MK placing over Irina but under Sarah, in ORDER to give Sarah the win.

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The reason that this thought intrigues me is that this is exactly what happened to Michelle. The U.S. judge (Joe Inman) inserted Irina between Sarah and Michelle. He was the only judge to do so. This single act gave Sarah the gold and Michelle the bronze.

Mathman

If such a rule exists, ....

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Gee Joe, thanks for the vote of confidence.! I would have posted a link to the exact rule if I had it handy at the time, but I didn't (don't) and the way I figure it, you can do a google search just as easily as I can. I just don't like the way people sometimes get so "Oh yeah! Prove it!" on the net.

... why not just score the skaters based on past performances and practice sessions? Why go through that whole facade of judging what one sees on that particular night?

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It's a known fact that judges and comentators watch the skaters practice to familiarize themselves with the programs, skills, etc...

I don't agree that it should all be left up to the final 4 minutes, as skating is very complicated and it's easy to get caught up in the moment. I know they're trained, but is 4 minutes seen once during competiton really enough to access overall quality of skills, ice coverage, variation of speed, placements of elements, relation to music, etc... I doubt it. I think it's good that they go in informed and prepared.

As for the rule, think of it this way: you are interviewing to hire a personal portfolio manager. One canidate has had proven succes over a long time, the other one has a long history of failure, but one big recent success. With whom are you going to trust your money?

Both skaters each landed the same amount of jumps. Each had a small boble on the flip, but one was landing them clean all week long in practice, the other was reguarly making mistakes. Who do you put 1st. They were basically equal in comp, but ties are not allowed with the ordinal system. It only stands to reason that the one with proven past sucess gets the nod. JMHO (and aparently one shared by the skating establishment. )

berthes ghost said:

Gee Joe, thanks for the vote of confidence.! I would have posted a link to the exact rule if I had it handy at the time, but I didn't (don't) and the way I figure it, you can do a google search just as easily as I can. I just don't like the way people sometimes get so "Oh yeah! Prove it!" on the net. :

berthes ghost - my comment was accepting of your post. I just wasn't clear the way I responded. I was just thinking what a dumb rule. If such a rule exists, it shouldn't.

ugh: It's a known fact that judges and comentators watch the skaters practice to familiarize themselves with the programs, skills, etc...

I'm aware of that, and a judge wrote to me once explaining that it is necesary for judges to watch practice sessions, particularly, competitors whom they've never seen. He didn't mention anything about plussing or minussing the LP based on his view of the practice.

I don't agree that it should all be left up to the final 4 minutes, as skating is very complicated and it's easy to get caught up in the moment. I know they're trained, but is 4 minutes seen once during competiton really enough to access overall quality of skills, ice coverage, variation of speed, placements of elements, relation to music, etc... I doubt it. I think it's good that they go in informed and prepared.

You are a caring person, berthes ghost, but a sport is a sport is a sport. Even Sasha Cohen has said, "the winner will be the one who skates the best that night". IMO, the competition has nothing to do with last Tuesday. It is the 4 minutes I am watching. If anything else is involved then I could award the medals without the 4 minutes and just have a gala. 'Like the best this year".

As for the rule, think of it this way: you are interviewing to hire a personal portfolio manager. One canidate has had proven succes over a long time, the other one has a long history of failure, but one big recent success. With whom are you going to trust your money?

A business deal is a business deal is a business deal. Business decisions just don't compare with sports. Eveyone wants to skate their best and every fan wants to see the skater skate their best, and they want to see it THAT NIGHT, not at yesterday's practice session.

Both skaters each landed the same amount of jumps. Each had a small boble on the flip, but one was landing them clean all week long in practice, the other was reguarly making mistakes. Who do you put 1st. They were basically equal in comp, but ties are not allowed with the ordinal system. It only stands to reason that the one with proven past sucess gets the nod. JMHO (and aparently one shared by the skating establishment. )

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from your analogy, I would just say that figure skating is a very very subjective sport and that kind of decision is not in the rules.

Also, your statement is not the best analogy for the CoP. I believe you are saying that if Plush and Joubert land quads (both perfectly) that Plush should get more points because he has been doing Quads longer. Am I correct? Trust me, the subjective non-rule applies.

However, we agree on many things and that's what a forum is all about.

Cheers = Joe

Re: Some thing judges look for

Kwanisqueen81 said:

As for SLC:
Okay, folks let's say for the sake of arguement that Irina was in first. That doen't mean she would have won the LP. What if Kwan landed her 3-3? what about Cohen? Hughes? Even Maria? We just don't know...

skatepixie had the LP
Sasha(giveing sasha the gold medal)
Irina
Sarah
Michelle

That is laughable..
Sasha Fell
Irina was uber-slow
Sarah Rocked the house
Kwan was blah

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How is landing no clean triples "rocking the house?" The audience responce doesnt really mean much. Many of those ppl dont know how to tell if a jump is cheated or not, and many of the ones who can are too far up to see properly....

Re: Re: Some thing judges look for

skatepixie said:

How is landing no clean triples "rocking the house?" The audience responce doesnt really mean much. Many of those ppl dont know how to tell if a jump is cheated or not, and many of the ones who can are too far up to see properly....

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When someone says "rocking the house" I think it is implied that they are talking about the audience reaction.

You are absolutely exaggerating when you are saying that ALL of Sarah's triples were underroated. Not even the biggest Sarah detractors have said all of her triples were underroated in any of her performances, especially the one performance where Sarah's jumps were cleaner than usual.

Also, you can't be serious with this comment

Many of those ppl dont know how to tell if a jump is cheated or not, and many of the ones who can are too far up to see properly....

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Tell me skatepixie...did you do a study researching how many of the audience members can tell if a jump is underrotated and where they sat?

Sasha first in the LP? Well, you're entitled to your opinion...I'll just leave it as that.

Normally, I'm not a massive Sarah Hughes fan. I like her and think she has a pleasant style, but she rarely knocks my socks off. However, I'm more than certain she deserved her Olympic victory. The top three were given every chance to win the gold medal....and they didn't. Sarah skated before all of them and received nothing higher than a 5.8....the door was wide open! And, as someone stated above, Michelle had a fall and was slow and Irina was shaky and uninspiring. Sasha had a fall, her lutzes were flutzes and she had several tenative jump landings. Sarah's jumps may not have been absolutely perfect either, but she had the energy and confidence that night and the rest fell victim to Olympic pressure. As always, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but that's how I see it! Sarah was at her personal best and the rest were far from it.

I was actually watching Elena and Anton's Olympic LP with the sound off. I love their skating and as soon as I heard the music I hit mute. Something about that selection makes me want to throw something at the tv or stereo. I'm not quite sure why it irritates me so much. I hate that music with a passion and didn't want it to spoil the fun of watching them. I'm glad I missed the commentary until later.

I'm almost contemplating leaving all competitions on mute to evaluate the actual skating. It certainly gave me a different perspective. It was certainly better than going mental over Elena & Anton's music selection.

It's kind of interesting to think about. Would we judge the technical elements differently if everything was on mute? What do you think?

BronzeisGolden ITA with every word.

I always wonder how much of this controversy is based on career achievement. Going by what happened that night, it seems obvious Sarah was clearly the best. The girl did two triple/triples and the others didn't manage one.

You can nitpick all of the programs to pieces. None of them were perfect. Michelle fell and was otherwise flat. Irina never rose above mediocre. At their best, both Irene and Michelle can outskate Sarah blindfolded. That shouldn't count one bit. They didn't get the job done THAT NIGHT and didn't deserve to win.

That's a great point, Mpal. I think we would see things differently with the mute button on. For one thing, the facial expressions when people try to show emotion would just look silly, LOL.

For example, I think the music played a large part in the audience's reaction to Shen and Zhao's Turandot at Worlds last year. Matching their technical elements to the swell of the music is what grabbed everybody's heart, I think.

But wait...You can't mean that you don't like the don't like the Meditation intermezzo from Thais! Maybe you didn't like that particular version of it. I didn't either -- too robust for this delicate and etheral tune.

BTW, the context is, our heroine (Thais) is "meditating" on whether she should become a nun or continue as a prostitute. (SPOLIER -- She went with nun.)

Mathman

Re: Re: Some thing judges look for

skatepixie said:

How is landing no clean triples "rocking the house?" The audience responce doesnt really mean much. Many of those ppl dont know how to tell if a jump is cheated or not, and many of the ones who can are too far up to see properly....

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I think it was obvious that Kwanisqueen81 meant that Sarah got the audience to its feet, and got the biggest ovation of the night, not that her program was clean (as it obviously wasn't).

I still can't get passed why you think Sasha should have been 1st? She had the easiest program of the final group, and was the sloppiest. Extension does not equal good presentation. I think in terms of technique and pres. she was the weakest out of the final group (except Sebestyen and Maria). I would have put Sasha behind Suguri and Butyrskaya (both of whom could have been above Kwan and Slutskaya. If only Butyrskaya didn't have such shakey landings on her otherwise clean jumps )

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