Yuna Kim's short and long programs

Krislite said:

All this talk of emotion makes me wish Yuna had gone with os168's suggestion that she skate to Terminator and portray a cold, emotionless, unstoppable killer robot.

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And I remember some here were almost scared you were serious when you made that April 1 comment.

Ven said:

I have no idea what Yuna is going for with this program. I will wait and see in Sochi, as I believe only now she is really trying to polish the presentation.

I think the previous performances her concentration was on getting required levels and confidence with her jumps.

That said, great art touches on universal emotions that all humans share. We spend most of our lives creating and dealing with false emotions, facades, and the like. We act one way with our family, and another in front of business associates. We scream "indecent!" when we see things that offend us, but often we are guilty in private. Life is filled with so much illusion and falsehood, but art overcomes all, and reveals truth in life. This concept of "mimesis" is what Aristotle described thousands of years ago when he famously said art represents "life is like that".

This is why snobby avante-garde "artistes" are not successful. They don't move people's emotions, because they are not depicting life in truth and sincerity. They get caught up in an intellectual game. Art is making people feel emotions, not about making them think. Thinking is only a curiosity that often complicates our lives and makes us think more. The pleasure we receive from watching a performer dance or skate, or seeing a movie or play, or reading a book ... when done well, these give us a feeling that most or all of our questions have been answered, not posed a whole bunch of new ones to ponder.

So in response to someone like os, why would someone bother to choose deep and meaningful music like Adios Nonino, only to strip out the emotion? There are better musical vehicles for such intentions. Perhaps if Yuna and David's intent is to water down Adios Nonino -- as some of you suggested -- perhaps it would have been altogether better to choose different music in the first place.

Look at someone like Akiko's LP this year...Yuna is a better skater than Akiko, but that program is moving. People love it. Even Julia's program they love for some reason, despite the fact she does not give performance.

There really is something to be said for just touching the audience. Skating does not have to get in the way, the very best performances are both technically out of this world and emotional at the same time.

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Ven. I completely agree with you! I am a Yu-na uber (I watch her pretty much everyday ), and I don't really like her Adios Nonino program (yet). The program is lovely, but IMO, a climax/ main point is missing. I am waiting patiently for Yu-na to show us the finalized version at the Olympics. I am confident that it will be much, much more improved than her last two showings. Yu-na has never disappointed before and probably won't again. =).

CezarMart said:

I really like what you said and you put it very well. However, you must agree feeling art is very subjective. Your "universal" emotions may be very much different from my "universal" emotions.
And that applies, of course, to our perception of skating performance. To me Yuna is a perfectionist school valedictorian, who draws my respect and, to some extend, emotions, but they are rather on intellectual basis, rather than pure natural and artistic. At the same, a skater who brings my natural, I would say instinctual, therefore purely artistic, emotions is Yulia. The reason I look at it this way is that I can very well define why Yuna's performance affects me, as it comes from intellectual reasoning, but I have no clue why I am drawn to Yulia's performances. It's not youth or innocence, because there are many such performers and I am not really drawn to it.
I think it has to do with art of portraying emotions without even knowing it, being emotional without acting it. I don't know. You see, if I knew it then it would not be truly "universal". The reason that I cannot define is why it's so strong, powerful and irresistible to me. Someone here said that her performance was the only one that got standing ovation at Euros. Because people truly feel it. Not because they can calculate it, but they are truly touched.

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Sorry to have to step in but I completely disagree with Ven on this issue that great art touches on universal emotions precisely because the subjectivity you have raise here, but also on the principles of pure art in its essence should never be about universal appeal. I am surprised Ven who claim himself to be an artiste can make such basic mistake in labeling art, let alone great art.

Ven argues for an art work to be successful, it must be universally appealing and deeply moving. This is the typical jargon used to romanticizes art beyond plausibility. He frown upon the importance of intellect conceptualisation which are actually the basis to appraise the very quality of contemporary art - let alone it is one of the very same criteria under PCS for which Performance/Execution is appraised - to include intellectual involvement.

Take the most important artists and artwork of today (Banksy, Aiweiwei, Koons, Hirsts, Abramovic, Kapoor, even Kadyinsky to name a few etc) and see just how universally do they share the most emotionally appeal? I'd go as far as to say, if an artist's aim is to create something that is truly universal appealing, and do not take risks and avoid controversy then he has no business of calling himself an artist but a public servant. Following the lowest denominator of public consensus that has little or no artistic value.

The biggest problem of his analysis is he is extremely self involved in his assessment, what he has done is no different than walk into a gallery, point to a piece of work then proceed to rant on about that is NOT how he'd do it - even though he 'like' the artist. Proceed to bombard anyone with how he would have done it with break down of points A-Z for maximum appeal, not realise he'd totally disregard the unique concepts, process, purpose, intentions, context, background knowledge, and it is the artist's vision people want to see.

I would further argue, an art work is not necessarily about what the artist wanted to be, but the context where it is to be delivered and beyond can be an interesting way to assess art. This goes against his view of that every masterwork's intention is meaningful and purposeful, but if you really look at the real master works that are remembered and lauded by the critics, there actually do not have any common denominator. They can be by product of something else more profound or not that has nothing to do with the meaning of which they were originally conceived.

Ultimately interpretation need to be considered with a world view, ideally with background knowledge, insights, looking at the past and into the future, it is not about who's absolutely right or wrong, but what is deemed reasonable, convincing, enlightening and informative. Something I failed to get from his narrow self imposed view that has less to do with the program's core concept or the interpretation but very much on his own interpretation or how he want the program to be for himself.

Krislite said:

All this talk of emotion makes me wish Yuna had gone with os168's suggestion that she skate to Terminator and portray a cold, emotionless, unstoppable killer robot.

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LOL... well you can always unofficially title this as Adios Lavista baby!

Seriously... i think alot of these talk are just cold feet by the fans, as everyone have probably their own dream version of they wish the last program for her. People who like their emotions, will want the program to be more emotional, people like her subtlety and nuances want to see more of that, people who like her musicality, want more of that. But really when it comes down in the end, it is her work.

I do think there are massive potentials from I can see, but we are going over old ground here, just wait and see.

os168 said:

LOL... well you can always unofficially title this as Adios Lavista baby!

Seriously... i think alot of these talk are just cold feet by the fans, as everyone have probably their own dream version of they wish the last program for her. People who like their emotions, will want the program to be more emotional, people like her subtlety and nuances want to see more of that, people who like her musicality, want more of that. But really when it comes down in the end, it is her work.

I do think there are massive potentials from I can see, but we are going over old ground here, just wait and see.

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Exactly! She started her senior career so magnificently and it is only fitting she finishes it with a bookend set of equally magnificent programs. I also think on a deeper level many of us so wanted a full final season; a goodbye tour. But basically the Olympics is it. Hence the cold feet. For what it is worth I think she is halfway there.

A great fancam of Send in the Clows: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LvqWRCkCM0

(The program starts around the two minute mark.)

Someone calling a poster a moron would be an infraction, would it not? just when you think maybe there is news, someone else is called a hater a moron and that poster lives to post another day?

skateluvr said:

Someone calling a poster a moron would be an infraction, would it not? just when you think maybe there is news, someone else is called a hater a moron and that poster lives to post another day?

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I hardly think you are in a position to complain. You've got more lives, seemingly, than a flash mob in "World War Z".

Minze2001 said:

And by the way someone who does not think Yuna is one of the best is not a moron. The person might be only a casual fan of the sport, or plain and simple not like Yuna, that does not make them a moron

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Not liking Yuna does not make you a moron. Not recognizing her skills and accomplishments does make you a moron if you follow figure skating.

os168 said:

Seriously... i think alot of these talk are just cold feet by the fans

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We like Yuna and want to talk about her, what can we say? At least in my case, I like Yuna and I like the music choices for this year's programs. So I'm very interested to talk about them. If someone doesn't care, they are more than welcome to put me on ignore, or simply skip over my post (I confess I'm guilty of this with some people!).

The same way certain posters like to go from thread to thread and post "Yuna best EVER!!!!" over and over again...I don't mind talking about the programs, the choreography, the music, over and over again because I find it fascinating.

CezarMart said:

I really like what you said and you put it very well. However, you must agree feeling art is very subjective. Your "universal" emotions may be very much different from my "universal" emotions.

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Yes great art is subjective, but universal emotions are not. That's why they are universal. The artist's job is to touch and move those feelings, and that's why the greatest performances (skating, theater, dance, film, etc.) have 90%+ approval and standing ovation. They do that and affect the audience. In contrast, other performances are less effective, and have much lower approval or even suffer outright criticism and failure.

What all of this has to do with skating -- well, I only made the point against someone who argues that snobby intellectual curiosities can be great art. It does not happen like that. Avante-garde artists have small numbers of loyal fans, it's true, but do they gain 90%+ approval and standing ovation for all people? No they do not, because they're work is not sincere to the universal emotions we all share. Instead, the work of avante-garde artistes only plays to psychological constructs ... some group of people who are looking for their pre-determined ideas to be reinforced, and that's the exact opposite of what great art achieves.

Intellectualism in art is in fact appreciated and necessary, don't get me wrong. It's important to always push the boundaries and try new things, and it's cool for artist-to-artist to have a snobby conversation. But intellectualism in art should always be a means to the end, not the end itself. At the end of the line, it's always about the performance and moving the audience.

Krislite said:

All this talk of emotion makes me wish Yuna had gone with os168's suggestion that she skate to Terminator and portray a cold, emotionless, unstoppable killer robot.

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You know, that would be interesting. Obviously not the most tasteful choice, but that would spark reaction in the audience I'm sure

Contrary to a lot of people, I think Mao's best program, for instance, was Bells of Moscow in 2010. I get tired of the same princess-y happy emotions over and over again in skating. It was nice to see such an aggressive performance that I think best matches Asada's style. Yuna did Gershwin and it was a great contrast, flirty and dramatic, and it was a really great program for Yuna at that time -- but then it's like OK let's move on and see her do something else, you know? And I think she's done a good job of that. I guess that's why now, at the end of her career, I want to see really mature and adult performances from Yuna. So we'll see.

andyjo24 said:

Ven. I completely agree with you! I am a Yu-na uber (I watch her pretty much everyday ), and I don't really like her Adios Nonino program (yet). The program is lovely, but IMO, a climax/ main point is missing. I am waiting patiently for Yu-na to show us the finalized version at the Olympics. I am confident that it will be much, much more improved than her last two showings. Yu-na has never disappointed before and probably won't again. =).

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Haha, I consider myself an uber too, but most of the ubers don't accept me

I also think Yuna will give a much better performance at the Olympics, and for the record I happen to like a lot of the choreography in Adios Nonino as well as the entire program in Send in the Clowns.

For me the single fault of Adios Nonino (but a great one) is that it doesn't follow through on setup/payoff. That is what's missing in this work. The climax is not set-up properly.

Using the unedited version, the music goes like this:
1. sad, distressful emotions of the bandoneon build and build
2. they build to a moment of deep despair
3. that despair is released at climax

But in the edited version of the music used for Yuna's program:
1. sad, distressful emotions of the bandoneon build and build
3. climax

An entire step is skipped, and that's why the program falls flat. At least for me (and I always enjoy watching Yuna skate) ... this program so far is a rare instance where I feel like I'm watching her just go from element to element with some cute poses mimed here and there. It doesn't feel unified, there's no building and building and building and climax and denouement and sense of "WOW That was Amazing!"

In some ways the problem is the music cut. The music builds and builds to a missing section, and then the climax comes sudden and out of nowhere. It gives the program the feeling of "meaninglessness" that some of us have described. However, the music cut cannot be changed, so it's now up to the performer to make the audience feel those emotions that are subconsciously longed for. The performer must build and build the emotion to a very intense moment, and then release that emotion at climax.

Now, Krislite thinks the goal of the performance was to de-emphasize the emotion, but if that was the case, I think the less-emotional post-climax sections of Adios Nonino should have been stressed. Instead, the building despair of the bandoneon was used, and the performance must be true to those parts of the music.

Ven said:

We like Yuna and want to talk about her, what can we say?

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Someone is really obsessed with Yuna...

Yuna should hire more bodyguards.

YunaBliss said:

Someone is really obsessed with Yuna...

Yuna should hire more bodyguards.

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I can see the headline now... Restraining Order Issued Against Overenthusiastic Figure Skating Fan
Figure skater Yuna Kim was recently accosted by a fan with suggestions on how to improve her programs. The man was escorted away by police while repeatedly shouting, "The program must have an emotional climax with a great release of emotion!"

CarneAsada said:

I can see the headline now... Restraining Order Issued Against Overenthusiastic Figure Skating Fan
Figure skater Yuna Kim was recently accosted by a fan with suggestions on how to improve her programs. The man was escorted away by police while repeatedly shouting, "The program must have an emotional climax with a great release of emotion!"

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I can´t breath, hahahaha, so they should to arrest the whole forum.

chapis said:

I can´t breath, hahahaha, so they should to arrest the whole forum.

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got to give it to Yuna Kim her fans are very passionate.

CarneAsada said:

I can see the headline now... Restraining Order Issued Against Overenthusiastic Figure Skating Fan
Figure skater Yuna Kim was recently annoyed by a fan with suggestions on how to improve her programs. The man was escorted away by police while repeatedly typing from thousands of miles away, "The program must build and build with emotion towards climax with a cathartic release of emotion!"

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Fixed your post for you.

Seriously, it's just a forum. I feel much better about my posts than someone who goes from thread to thread saying things like

YunaBliss said:

Yuna is the most musical skater ever, and because of that, whatever music she skates to, no matter what kind of music it is, it becomes something of an art and worth appreciating.

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Take that kind of posts to YNKF ... oh wait, you might not be welcome there either, since you just insulted the entire member base. :no:

Ven said:

Fixed your post for you.

Seriously, it's just a forum. I feel much better about my posts than someone who goes from thread to thread saying things like



Take that kind of posts to YNKF ... oh wait, you might not be welcome there either, since you just insulted the entire member base. :no:

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But soon as YuNa wins gold we'll all be BFF

Ven said:

Take that kind of posts to YNKF ... oh wait, you might not be welcome there either, since you just insulted the entire member base. :no:

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Apparently I would be more welcome there than you, given the frosty reception with which your treatises on Yuna Kim's long program were met.

The "Bachelor" TV show was on tonight-I half watched, mainly to see Seoul. Saw Pop K something like that. Such an enthisastic group of fans in a mall. . What a nice city! OT just wanted to say it looks like a great city, I saw a bit of the old Palace. All that food...dying to know if it is good!

Here's a great fancam of her Adios Nonino LP in Sochi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYxBJt6XuOI (You'll want to watching in full-screen mode.)

Stable camera, clear picture, wide angle of the entire rink. It sounds like the audio was taken from the no-commentary broadcast.

ETA: Here's fancam of her SP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl4_W5Sv_xE A little shaky for the first few seconds, but stable and clear from then on. Again, watch in full screen and in HD since it's a wide-angle shot of the entire rink from afar.

Still amazed to realize she went clean back-to-back at both of her Olympic games.

Thank you, Krislite. The bird-eye videos are the next best thing for those who were not there to see her performances in person. Those who have seen Yuna's competitive skating are blessed witnessing it. I wish I had.

How Johnny Weir can say "Yuna played it safe" or some such to this majestic and magnanimous performance is beyond my comprehension. I can only watch these videos in awe, and cannot imagine what it'd be like watching the performance live. I fully understand that he needs a job and wants to succeed, but he went beyond what is necessary. (and successfully deluded himself in the process)