Well for right now this is his working situation. He just has to learn how to handle it. None of us knows how long their partnership will last but IMHO, Nikita needs to focus more on his consistency, because his mistakes have been very costly. Regardless of what happens in the future he needs to clean up his footwork and twizzles. If it means that he needs to spend hours on the ice alone to get it done he just needs to do it. They are very, very impressive together, when they are BOTH on. Lena, regardless of her personal flaws, seems to be sharp as a whip. She has improved a lot this year with respect to her artistry. He needs to get his technical consistency together. But the problem I fear is what if this is the best that he can do. He's had these problems even from the beginning with Zhulin.
BTW. Thanks for translating the story.
Morozov persuaded Joubert to change his short program.
It is so short time before Euros and Olympics, and he has no chance to try it at some not so important competition.
I am very curious how it will end…
If the choreography is something totally different from Joubert’s style or style of his old short program, it will be extremely difficult for him to skate in amazingly.
If the choreography is something similar to what Joubert is used to do, than it has no sense to change a program at all.
I don’t know but I worry that this situation will help every skater except Joubert himself.
I can‘t agree with you. I know that I am very strict and ancompromising as to quality of ice dancers. But I am like this to everybody, including Ilinykh. People have their personal opinions about their favourite skaters and nothing against it, but once you say that somebody is good technician or good in presentation or artistry there should be some objective things which can prove it.
Originally Posted by bramweld
Great presentation means that you are able to express music or story you come with, to be able to go with music in rhythm also, to match changing of mood and dynamics in music.
You say that Ilinykh improved in presentation (let’s completely forget about Nikita, watch Lena only)…
Look at short dance…dancing is out of the rhythm in between elements parts – first problem, but if you think that dancing out of the rhythm can still match music perfectly, OK, let’s go on…music rhythm changes three times, Lena’s movements are still in the same kind of dynamics – more slower than fast, even in the last part where she uses her head only to express music…that’s another point, you think that great performer can express fast and dynamic music moving her head? (because all the main work and movements are done by Nikita, who we don’t look at right now)...another thing – Lena’s presentation is all the time about being sexy and hot like Hollywood queen…and she really looks sexy and hot…but the music is not sexy and hot only, the last part is wild and frenetic that you almost loose your breath… but Lena is still hot and sexy in quite restful and peacefull way…
OK, let’s look at free dance…here it is more complicated about the story…looking at all Lena and Nikita and Morozov’s interviews it is hard to find what is music and story about…we have Swan Lake story with Odylie and Rothbart, but it is not ballet and Lena wants to be good Swan but tends to be Odylie more (looking at her December interview), but also it is a story of two strong characters who are loving and fighting with each other…but ballet dancers were working with couple (Diana Visnevski and some young ballet dancers) …
Looking at choreo – Lena is doing swan moves four times (two times in straight places, once in final lift and first lift hand’s position can be also taken like swan movement)…what Lena does is not ballet move (she pointed learning ballet movements in front of the mirror and she had those ballet dancers to help her, but it doesn’t work) – her head’s position is not good – to much forward, her hands are not ballet – her fingers are flexed which you can’t find in ballet dancers…overall Lena‘s body posture has nothing to do with ballet…but she knew it…in 2011 using Don Quijote and working with great ballet ex-dancer and coach now Ludmila Vlasova she had more ballet preparation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8GRqMbLaPY – just compare….but yes, Lena pointed that their free dance is not a ballet (but then talks about ballet preparation and ballet dancers helping her) – very confusing indeed. But let’s believe that it really has nothing to do with ballet.
Another thing – we have swan moves in it, but it is about woman…well we can try to come with some idea why mentally healthy woman moves with her hands like swan and how that moves shows a fight and love to her partner (and yes, swan costume..)...
Another thing – expressing two strong characters (I don’t see in what moment she expresses strong character but I confess that this may be something what I simply couldn’t notice), expressing love and fight – I see that slow part expresses love, but where is fight, in what moment, where are her movements reminding a fight?
Another thing – music is changing in character and speed and dynamics but Lena’s movements are still the same.
Looking at music and Lena’s moves (totally forgetting Swan Lake story, just listening what music itself says) – it is dramatic at the beginning (Lena is not very dramatic in moves but very dramatic in facial expression, her movements taking first pose and taking pose in first lift is rather full of anger – so maybe there was planned a fight before starting program and during first lift). Than waltz part starts – music is full of joy and celebration and the imagine of a ball comes into my head (just listening the music), but Lena is out of the rhythm, no sparkles, no flawless of body posture, no ball at all. And what I terribly mind and what looks to be this season bad habbit – Lena forgets to extend her free leg absolutely and it doesn’t look well, it has nothing to do with dancing technique at all. Than slow part about love starts…Lena is slow indeed, she takes her hand from Nikita, then doing swan moves and lovely looking to judges, so she probably doesn’t want Nikita, but no, she extends her hands to him, so she wants him…spin…after it Nikita takes her hand and keeps her close to him, but Lena extend arms to judges (who does the girl want?). Final part with drama, the music is sharp, full of big emotions, full of energy and tension, yes, it is music suitable for fight, but during whole part Lena was doing moves slower and without any dynamics comparing to music (especially because of you I watched Russian Nationals, TEB and NHK – there was one dynamic movement from Lena in this part right after the twizzles bot in NHK and TEB, not in Nationals). Whole dynamic part took 1:11 and she did just one or none movement which would express the music. Looking all moves only without music in final part – I don’t understand it too much, there is a long preparation for twizzles, than Lena take his head into hands like “What I have done!“ (it should probably do Nikita, when he is struggling with twizzles so often), then Lena touches Nikita hand for a while, she makes turns and extend her arms maybe like bird?, then she hides behind Nikita like she would be afraid of judges, one quite dramatical move in Ina Bauer with extended arms in the middle of step sequence (during all step sequence she is looking at judges and looks angry, so maybe she fights with judges but with her facial expression only), then a lift which looks like from weightlifting and final ballet position (again, why ballet position when it is not about ballet).
Overall from all parts only love part can be taken into account when you think about Lena and good presentation (but one is confused whether is it love to judges or to Nikita looking at choreo). Free dance takes 4:10 and love part takes 0:45, but there is a spin in it which takes 0:24, so the whole Lena’s “in story“ part takes 21 seconds only.
I agree with you that Lena is lovely lady with good edges, she is elegant, with good costumes, sexy look, it is nice watching her gliding on the ice. But once we talk about presentation, she is not able to express different pieces. This season Morozov chose this pieces and Lena is not able to express music in short dance (expecially faster music) and she is not able to express music or story in free dance with exception of 21 seconds. But for me 21 seconds is too short time for accepting the girl like good dancer.
Many people points to a fact that Ilinykh is still so young and that we have a high exceptations looking at her age. Yes, we have a high expectations, because if you want to be top dancer you must be higher and better than average dancers, you understand. And still ice dancing is about (or should be about) what you show on the ice, not how old are you. I don’t want be the one who will come to Kathlynn Weaver after the Olympic‘s free dance and say something like: “You know, you were fantastic, but we have to take into account that Lena is younger then you so we put her ahead of you!“ Could you do that?
Originally Posted by bramweld
But I must confess that during this long analysis I started to think that maybe I really want to much from 19 years old girl. And it was you, Frenchie, who made me think about a sort of experiment to prove myself if I am really so strict and want to much from such young baby or not. Frenchie wanted me to say my opinion about Drobiazko&Vanagas and it took me to history of skating and I watched many old videos…And it took me to the idea to look for great dancers…more exactly how were they dancing in Lena’s age…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSXT8HsDazQ 1993 Krylova-Fedorov
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D89_W1W-iMg 1993 Krylova’s waltz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cnHLcJvSBs 1993/94 Anissina Peizerat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiHKNVQWis4 2010 Tessa Scott
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpTWcQyaF1w 2003 Domnina Shabalin (I didn’t find good quality 2004 free program – Tango, so I took program, where Oksana was 18 years old
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv7UOYX6eXM 1994 Navka
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wyjld3MF0jQ 1991/92 Grishuk Platov
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmLsKqJTHbM 1986 Klimova Ponomarenko
I took placements from season programs are from - European Championships (where usually placement was better than at World Championships):
Krylova – 4. place, Anissina – 12. place, Domnina – 12. place, Navka – 10. place, Grishuk – 3. place, Klimova – 2. place, Tessa’s placement everybody knows (not from European Champs of course).
In all cases girls were better then Lena in every aspect of both skating and dancing. If you look at skating skills, to ability express the music, rhythm, anything…Lena is worse. No girl mentioning above was never in a shadow of her partner.
What I also noticed while watching those past year’s programs, all girls had more difficult choreography, more steps, more difficult moves, they all could dance with their whole body (not arm only, or leg only, or head only). It is said that new judging system is more demanding and that programs became more difficult. So how is it possible that Lena has much more simple choreopraphy then even Klimova in 1986? And if a program from 2013/14 season is more simple then the program skated 28 years ago how it can be counted like top-world program?
Sure all those 19 years girls were not on the top of their potential (except Tessa probably), so I hope that Lena will improve and show better dancing and skating in future.
I still think she's actually quite fabulous. Her uncanny ability to merge both the artistic and technical is commendable. No other female dancer today has her quality. Excited to see how she matures However, it would be nice to see Nikita not feeling the need to apologize so profusely to her for silly mistakes. They lost nationals when they lost the SD, because he made too many mistakes. They usually lose unnecessary points because of his twizzle issues. They made them easier for him this year and he still struggles. She puts on a brave face almost every time; I believe she at least should be credited for that. However, this is just my opinion. So while some might feel he is more expressive, point taken but expressiveness alone will not will championships he needs to focus on his technique. They will never win and maybe she will never have the freedom to be as expressive as she'd like to be if in the back of her head she's wondering did he make a mistake? With this in mind the constant need to prop him up and belittle her is pointless.
BTW civil disagreements are always good What I don't like to see are skaters skewered due to personal prejudice. Not cool. This IMO should be about sport not maligning the character of people who don't have the opportunity to defend themselves.
I also disagree with sisinka. My first reaction was to post a bunch of links (just like sisinka did) to 'prove' that Elena is actually very expressive, but then I decided not to bother. A bunch of links will not prove to sisinka that Elena is expressive, the same way as sisinka's links did not prove to me that she isn't expressive. The thing is, if someone WANTS to believe something, no matter what I post will persuade them otherwise. There seem to be 'a war' against I/K, which may or may not have something to do with their coach and his relationship with Elena, so whatever I/K do will be wrong. But that doesn't matter. Haters luckily can't influence their skating results, so as long as I/K get on with it, they will be fine! If sisinka finds them so bad, I suggest that she use them as toilet or snack break and does not bother to watch them.
I agree with one thing…if you don’t want to see the difference of skating and dancing qualities between Lena and top world skaters of past, it is impossible to prove you. And I don’t force you. I reacted to something what I don’t agree with Bramweld, that is all. Nothing to offend Bramweld, nothing to offend you.
Originally Posted by hanca
Please don’t bother me with such silly words like “haters“, and your “toilet things“. I am not in figure skating for the first year to notice some things which are connected with skating and dancing.
To react at your words that Lena is not expressive – I didn’t wrote about Lena not being seen on the ice, she is - in a very sexy way, I wrote that she is not good dancer in meaning that she is not able to express what is music or story about, she is not changing her style of dance with changement in music and story – this is necessary in dancing – watch Tessa, she is different every year. And every component mark touches the ability to express what is music or story about. And it is the same in ballroom dancing, in every kind of dancing – you have to express the music or story in it. It was always like that.
And how about exhibition numbers with completely different music in different rhythm and different story line…but skated to the same choreo from free dance…it is another big question about Lena and Nikita feeling what is expressing the music about and that you can’t dance every piece of music in the same style.
So, you think that anyone who says that Lena and Nikita are not a perfect couple is a hater…OK, so both Tarasova and Zhulin pointing that couple was not working (in 2010/11 and 2011/12 season) are haters…Morozov who said at the beginning of this season that the couple was hard to coach in past…is a hater…all journalists who wrote that Lena and Nikita had a disaster at Nationals…are haters…Piseev and Gorshkov who told about unsuccessful competition…are haters…and Tarasova pointing that Morozov doesn’t work well with the couple in the beginning of this season…is hater again…and all members from different forums who noticed that Lena and Nikita are out of the rhythm (and looking at level of those posts – they are ballroom ex-dancers or ballroom coaches)…are haters…and all people who noticed that the story in free dance is not portrayed well…are haters…a technical specialist who put levels 2 at NHK…is a hater…and judges who prefer other couples more than Lena and Nikita…are haters…and Nikita Katsalapov who was complaining in the middle of November that they need a choreographer because he doesn’t know what with hands and how to feel the story….is hater also….
I love dancing, not performing elements, not playing something what is not in music or story content…how is it possible that women like Tessa, Pechalat, Weaver and Bobrova are able to pass my strict rules about being good or great dancer and Lena is not? How is it possible that those women have difficult choreography and interpret the music well and Lena not, did I forced Lena not to do it? And people who are making some “looking at rules“ criticism of women mentioned above are also haters or just people who don’t agree with Lena being dancing queen are haters?
I like watching skating on the ice, I know that all skaters work (many of them work hard) to get as much as possible. I respect everybody who learns whole compositions and goes on the ice to show the public and fight with his/her nerves. Who does it successfully then even bigger respect. While other skaters are able to have great programs in both technical side and presentation side, I don’t understand why Lena and Nikita doesn’t have. It is possible to have difficult programs, to skate it clean, to express the music or story…other dancers are proving it every season, so why not Lena and Nikita? But if a couple comes to competition with simple choreography, doesn’t express the music or story and doesn’t keep the rhythm…sorry. I can’t agree that the couple or girl from the couple are great…but they can still be beautifully looking, entertaining and elegant, nothing against it…but except elegancy these are not dancing and skating criterias.
Sisinka, I am really not going to bother to engage with you in long discussions on how bad I/K is. Take notice how much you have written on this page and how long are contributions of other posters. It seems that you feel very strongly about the topics, otherwise you wouldn't be writing such essays, but that still doesn't make you right! Maybe less attacking style would achieve more. Your writing style shows sort of desperation!
sisinka, you are great, I absolutely agree with you.
talking about IK's "Swan Lake": it have NO story, at all first time I saw it, I was like "wow, great!" and then, there were just so many questions, so many confuse part in it.
Like, say, "ok, so according to their costume, she is Odyle, and him Rothbath, and they... fall in love?" "the first pose is nice, but she is Black Swan, why she looks so fragile and scare?" "what are those gestures about? what is the meaning behind them?" and it upset me to no end how those commentators talked about them "lovely, it's ballet training" (the same thing he talked about Bobrova Soloviev's Chess short dance 3 years ago) - no, it's nothing close to ballet training. In Navka's fanforum (written in Russian), people claimed (a lot) about Lena's hands "are vain". And then she just kind of answered my question : "just 2 strong character feeling love and passion" -> so yes, no meaning in those nearly 5 minutes (just like thought). Also, so far, only Virtue/Moir, Davis/White, Cappellini/Lanotte (my second most favorite fd), Bobrova/Soloviev (my most favorite fd, actually), Pechalat/Bourzat are really telling a story by staking their free dance. Others? just gliding on ice & being beautiful, nothing else -_-
Dear Hanca, firstly I started this topic to give an opportunity for non-Russian fans to find something about their favourite skaters, to translate just a little bit about their Russian world, I also posted an address to Tanka who translated some interviews (thanks a lot, great job!). I know that many people are not satisfied that Russian language is so “different“ from English and that they can’t find anything about their favourites. Yes, in that moment I didn’t realised that most of interviews are made with Ilinykh only (since Russian Nationals she has more articles and interviews than Volosozhar & Trankov and Sotnikova together), so it looks like that other dancers, pair skaters and solo skaters are not existing for Russian media. Sorry for not expecting it.
Originally Posted by hanca
If you are so attentive to count all my words and maybe even letters written here, you should go for more…and ask why are my posts so long…because when I write something and somebody other says: “No, you are wrong!“ or starts to be even so aggressive like you, I start to prove why I think it so. And videos, new judging system rules and comparison with other skaters are great helpers. I don’t know what is your job or if you are still a student, but if you were working and came to your job and started to say: “I think this because I think it, I think it, and it must be so because I think it and I am sure of it and I am right.“ I am not sure if you would be able to keep the job repeating such words without saying WHY you think so…but that is exactly the way you are talking to me. You are so sure of everything but you prove nothing…
I am not writing posts because I would love to create a “topic of a year“ and sincerely if people are not writing here much there are few possibilities – doesn’t know some reasoning, doesn’t want to discuss (like you, for example), or doesn’t want to write anything. It is everybody’s decision, I respect it.
If you were Russian and read some Russian boards probably you would be very surprised with the posts there. There are positive and negative criticisms in those posts and some of them are even longer then mine. And everybody who proves his or her opinions to fans who are very offensive like you is writing long posts…An example…somebody says (ballroom dance teacher looking at way he speaks) that I&K are out of the rhythm…suddenly there are some answers trying to offend and destroy the author of the first post (like you try to do, no, they are worse)…then author tries to explain what is quickstep or waltz about, how to count it, using video, proving everything what is possible…but another few posts are so offensive to him again because he wrote not positive words about I&K…but you know, everybody can see at every video that the couple is really out of the rhythm…but to everybody’s good sleep, some fans (who can’t believe that top world couple contender could be out of the rhythm) ask some relatives studing musical school or having musical education to look at them…people with musical education confirms that the couple is really out of the rhythm both in short and free dance…and what happens then…a few people continue to offend that author must be jealous to Lena and Nikita for sure…
At Russian Forum there is also a nice reasoning to prove that free dance is about nothing. Some of I&K protector says that the story of Swan Lake is beautiful, somebody answers that there is no Swan and no ballet in their dance pointing to body position. I&K protector says that it never minds because the couple is fantastic and by the way the dance is also about love and strong characters… somebody answers that she has swan costume but there is nothing for love and fight, there is no story, just few swan moves. Then I&K protector says that it never minds, that the couple is so beautiful that they don’t need a story, that it is enough to have elements only, that it is an abstraction. Somebody answers that if you have story of two characters, it can’t be abstraction and abstraction is about movements and Tchaikovski is not suitable for this – it is too strong music for just an abstraction. I&K protector answers that those people are jealous and make another offensive notes. Do you understand? It is funny. Anything what is not connected with I&K being perfect is punished hardly and in a very offensive way by few members of Russian forum.
Everybody who notices that the couple is not perfect is being punished for those opinions…but those people are not using any reasoning, they come with words you use (toilet, desperation etc). There not many people who would be protecting I&K like this at Russian Forum, maybe about 7, but everybody of them use such offensive and aggressive words that one starts to think whether they came from criminal or what…
I am for fans who support their favourite couples. It is nice thing and it helps I know. Let’s continue on supporting I&K. But if you like the couple it doesn’t mean that they are the best on the world. Coomes & Buckland and Tobias & Stagniunas have fans also, I am sure of it. But those fans never tried to make a Worlds Champions from them saying that they are perfect and wonderful and those fans never came with offensive words to everybody who would say that the couple needs to improve. I wrote many positive things about I&K (you probably didn’t notice), but as to rhythm, expression of music, connection to story, difficult choreo, dance holdings – those couple is loosing to other couples who make at least top world 6 right now...I refuse to admit those abilities mentioned above to couple who doesn’t have them.
Could you answer me why Weaver, Pechalat, Bobrova, Cappellini and of course Tessa and Meryl (and many others – all top 6 at Russian Nationals for example) are able to keep the rhythm and Lena and Nikita are not? Could you answer me why Lena has the most simple choreo this year from all GP medalists (and even many skaters who didn’t medal)? Why other dance ladies have more difficult choreo? Why choreo from 1986 program (Klimova & Ponomarenko free dance) is more difficult than Lena’s choreo? Is it normal for at least European medal contender to have such performance, especially when you can compare her to other ladies both from today and past? Let’s love Lena and Nikita, it is OK, but why you try to make a super team from them in all aspects when they don’t have those qualities right now?
I don’t understand why so many I&K protectors are so full of hate and tries to attack everybody who is not saying that the couple is not the best. This year I saw some discussions between Tessa and Meryl fans and most of them are not offensive to other people‘s opinion. No, they are writing what they think and why they think so. There are so many people who discuss their favourite couples…yes, they discuss, not offend. I told at GPF that Andrew Poje is not making his free leg straight especially in step sequences, I told that free dance of Tessa and Scott reminds me a second Mahler, and I wrote that Meryl has many jumping in their dances. Nobody from those skater’s fans came to offend me, why? If their fans are able to accept different opinions and let people with another opinions leave in peace, why you can’t do that? All those long essays starts with I&K protectors who desperately hates and offends all people who are not glamorizing I&K.
If you really love the couple, you should love them how they are, not how you would like them to be. But for this couple there is still a long way to go to achieve a level of a great Russian dancers of the past. They are still young, they can still improve a lot, it is just in their hands (but permanent repetition made by their fans that they are fantastic is not going to make their skating and dancing qualities better, I am sure).
Hi TheGothicEme, yes, commentators are sometimes quite funny, I even heard that one of Eurosport commentators made an Olympic champions 1984 from the couple Towler & Dean (mixes Torvill & Dean and Towler & Ford couples)...
Originally Posted by TheGothicEme
What I don’t like on new judging system is the fact that it allows to get high points for performing elements only without dancing to the music. I think that it is a duty for ice dancers to express music or story, that it shouldn’t be allowed to just skate to some sort of music. Ice dancing is still dancing and for example in ballroom dancing if the couple is not able to express a certain kind of dance and catch the rhythm – they can’t get high marks even with good basics and nice smiles.
I'm gonna Customize the CRAP out of this Title!!!
Sisinka, thank you for your take on Drobiazko/Vanagas, and as always for your interesting analysis! Interesting idea, I'm flattered that you say I made you think about "how were others at her age"!
Originally Posted by sisinka
I'd like to point out a regrettable misunderstanding that's caused by the language barrier:
Originally Posted by hanca
Originally Posted by sisinka
Hanca suggested that you should use the 5-7 minutes when I/K are on TV to "do something else", like go to the toilet or make coffee... No insult there.
Originally Posted by sisinka
Also, this whole chapter you wrote about haters could have been stopped after its first sentence: "So, you think that anyone who says that Lena and Nikita are not a perfect couple is a hater" Answer: No. Hanca never said that. That makes the rest of this very long chapter regrettable.
Sisinka, we have discussed B/S vs I/K in the past, and we sometimes agreed to disagree. But I have to admit that I had to smile when I read
Originally Posted by sisinka
You have been writing pages and pages about why I/K were inferior (and why B/S were superior), and when within those pages and pages you would say something positive about them, it would be a sandwich of "they're so bad here and here" then "but they're pretty" then "let's get back to just how bad they are".
Originally Posted by sisinka
Originally Posted by sisinka
I just want to say that I really appreciate all the information you're providing anyone who's interested, and that I agree with most of the points you make. I just don't feel that intense and intransigent about them as you do. At least, that's the impression I get from your posts.
You obviously have deep knowledge about Ice Dance, and that's why I'm so curious about you: I somehow picture a dance teacher, acting coach or figure skating teacher, who would be absolutely passionate about art, which leads to such emotional opinions when they think what they see isn't good enough and people are not seeing it...
If you ever feel like sharing, I'd love to hear your story
Finally someone who sees this pile of mud slinging for what it is!! Can we reign in these extreme posts? Sisinka's attitude toward the pair is clearly toxic but is it really necessary to go to such lengths to convince others of this? It just comes across as vindictive and cruel. It just doesn't feel right. This is a media thread right? Why don't we get back to that? Case in point; http://news.sportbox.ru/Vidy_sporta/...e-bolelischiki
Originally Posted by hanca
Sisinka only talked about skating, about what is giong on on the ice (with NO thing to do with Lena's personal life or what she is doing with Morozov, thank you very much -_- ) it's all about what is going on the ice, and it did make sense, unlike something like "it's fabulous, they look wonderful, what the heck is all the technique elements you're talking about, they are pleasure to watch, that's enough, let's crown them European Champions". Why on earth do you think she has "toxic attitude"? Many other people don't like and can point out mistakes in others' skating, too. She didn't just said something like "they are vain", this is disaster, or the fd is a mess... She also didn't just left it there, she pointed out the strong & weaknesses of them (along with giving us A LOT of information).
So, I will say this "hater's gonna hate", keep on sisinka, I thank you for what you did.
Also, do you have any information at all about Volosozhar/Trankov? Is there a P&G about them?
Keep a respectful opinion and all is fine i think.
Nobody should hate a skater or talk bad about one, i personally saw most ice dancers now and have my favs.
Since ice dance is very complex its not always free of confusion and discussions. We debate often in germany as well.