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Thread: Ashley Wagner making a statement against Russia's law

  1. #256
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    how are nails and earrings a demonstration? (other than her saying it so)
    I agree Toni...it is a little gesture, but it does not go with Samson and Delilah. maybe there was a good score to broke back mountain?

    Please Ashley, just skate. The USA is sending NON COMPETING athletes like King and Boitano so they can speak up without reprisal. I fear Ashley will have a Mirai backlash, as Russians love a good skater and Mirai nagasu was the lights out performer of the Olympics. I liked her better than the top 3. Joannie was so brave, and very good-her Sp was the most moving Sp I have seen. Not since Sergei died and Katia skated for him have I been sobbing for a skater. But 16 year old adoreable firecracker Mirai, already a US Champ skated great, as did Flatt. Her Sp was delightful. Mirai skated without fear, it was amazing how good our two girls did. Everyone who remembers Vancouver vividly remembers skaters in ladies 1-4.

    Back to topic. I do not agree with Putin. It is scary. But NBC has actually hired a married gay man Weir who WILL be outspoken and may kiss his husband in public to see if American media/athletes are safe, or prove a point. Johnny made it easier for other gays to come out-like Brian after 40 years.

    I personally feel Ashley needs to be a little selfish, and just do her job-which is to skate the heck out of Pink Floyd and Samson and Delilah, and try to win a medal. Her thoughts will be picked up world wide if it is Ashley Wagner, America's pretty ice princess who won the bronze. And I think if she skates clean, she can win as she should get high PCS-she is a very polished skater with the best LP.

    I guess I am selfish because there will be many people speaking out, and as a competitor, there could be a backlash against her by the Russian judge. Lets be real, what Ashley has to say is not that important.

    BTW, what has frontrunner Kim said publicly about this? I imagine millions of people can be swayed in Korea by Kim YuNa, and also her fans outside Korea.

  2. #257
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    I think focussing on anything else beside skating clean and being perfect is what Ashley needs. When she puts pressure on herself she doesn't do well (see: Boston Nationals).


    I don't think any athlete needs to feel they HAVE to speak out for or against the law. If they choose to, fine, if they don't? Also fine. Yuna does not owe anyone anything.

  3. #258
    I'm gonna Customize the CRAP out of this Title!!! Frenchie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyguy View Post
    Frenchie, compare the law in different countries. If Russians allow a lower age of consent for the same-sex activity than the western countries, is the law in Russia really so terrible?
    I do believe that whatever age a state considers as old enough for allowing 2 people to choose to have sex, then I think they should also consider them old enough to choose who they want to have sex with.
    My issue with this new law isn't about what this means for the sexlife of teenagers, but about the state effectively legally acknowledging a part of the population as lesser beings.

  4. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
    I do believe that whatever age a state considers as old enough for allowing 2 people to choose to have sex, then I think they should also consider them old enough to choose who they want to have sex with.
    My issue with this new law isn't about what this means for the sexlife of teenagers, but about the state effectively legally acknowledging a part of the population as lesser beings.
    Did you hear about an actual petition in Baden-Württemberg? The parents of school children do not want that the teachers speak in the class about homosexuality. Many thousands people support this petition. They all think homosexuals are lesser beings. This is the situation in Germany.

  5. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
    I think they should also consider them old enough to choose who they want to have sex with.
    What are you criticizing? In Russia is legal if a man of 50 has sex with a young man of 16. In the US, in Germany etc it is not possible.

  6. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyguy View Post
    Did you hear about an actual petition in Baden-Württemberg? The parents of school children do not want that the teachers speak in the class about homosexuality. Many thousands people support this petition. They all think homosexuals are lesser beings. This is the situation in Germany.
    It's a delicate situation to deal with all over the world. But you're talking about a petition by many thousands in a country with 82 million inhabitants, not a law passed by the state. So, no, "this is not the situation in Germany".
    Even those thousands who signed the petition don't want it to be illegal for a gay couple to hold hands in the streets. I really don't see much of a connection here.

  7. #262
    I'm gonna Customize the CRAP out of this Title!!! Frenchie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyguy View Post
    In Russia is legal if a man of 50 has sex with a young man of 16. In the US, in Germany etc it is not possible.
    Then by all means, pass a law on that! But not a law that it is in effect a complete ban on the gay rights movement and any public expression of homosexuality.
    The possibility of that 50 year old man taking advantage of a 16 year old boy should not be an excuse for legally downgrading gay adults.
    By the way, in Russia it is also legal if a man of 50 has sex with a young woman of 16. I don't find that picture particularly romantic either.

    Quote Originally Posted by luckyguy View Post
    What are you criticizing?
    As you can read in my earlier post, my issue with this new law isn't about what this means for the sexlife of teenagers, but about the state effectively legally acknowledging a part of the population as lesser beings. That is what I am criticizing. You don't have to agree with me though.

  8. #263
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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  9. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    Peace and love!

  10. #265
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    Frenchie, maybe you know whether this was true:

    Germany Jails Eight Christian Fathers for Removing Children from Sex-Ed Class

    If it was, is that the "equality and freedom" that you are fighting for?

    Here was another example from US:

    Father Jailed Opposing Gay Education For Kindergarten Son

    Culture War Hits Kindergarten

  11. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Frenchie, maybe you know whether this was true:

    Germany Jails Eight Christian Fathers for Removing Children from Sex-Ed Class

    If it was true, is that the "equality and freedom" that you want?
    - Oh - My - God. Bluebonnet, why don't you want to listen to Tonichelle's suggestion that we should all get along? To spew such incendiary and misleading words on such a thread is simply tasteless and disgusting of you. Now of course I feel the need to answer again.
    - Speaking of "going out of your way to pick a fight", as you criticized me earlier for reminding you saying that Figure Skating had become "too gay for you, and you'd therefore drop it after Sochi"... You actually researched "Germany and equality of freedom", up to five years in the past? I remember you using the word "hipocrisy" a few times with others - care to look in the mirror
    - I read this article by your source and was actually really surprised at how irresponsible the fact-checking was, given the incendiary nature of these accusations. For instance, you'll be extatic to hear that the word "Bussgeld", litterally translated as "repentance money", is actually the regular word in German for "fine". If I get a speeding ticket, I have to pay Bussgeld. There's nothing more to it. This article reminds me of the one that was linked on this forum, where some guy said the reason Nagasu wasn't sent to Sochi was because of her asian ethnicity, and he even ended his "article" with "Wagner was born in Germany" without feeling the need to mention that it was because her father was a US soldier serving his country by being stationed in Germany.
    - Does the fact that you ask me whether this was true or not mean that you haven't researched further? In case you didn't find other information, I suggest you open up to other, less "one-sided" sources than this site. I explored it a bit and found they have very strong beliefs in one certain direction and aren't exactly interested in portraying both sides to the story...
    The Internet might be a good start for you to have a more educated opinion on things.
    I hope you read this, eventually decide to research by yourself, and will be sincerely appalled by how "lifesitenews" has so blatantly lied to you. I really do.
    OK, here's the facts I found:
    Judgment: sex education is compulsory for all - even for Baptists

    STRASBOURG. The European Court of Human Rights has confirmed the German compulsory education at a crucial point: Even the sexual education is compulsory and is not contrary to the parents' right to education and freedom of religion, judged the judges in Strasbourg.

    They rejected the lawsuit filed by five German Baptist families from North Rhine-Westphalia, who had their children out of school temporarily held away and were therefore fined. The decision is final.

    The quarrel already began in June 2005. Back then, two of the affected couples asked to have their children, who at that time were in the fourth grade of a primary school in Salzkotten, freed from "Sachkundeunterricht" (not sex ed, but a class that teaches everything). According to the curriculum, sex education was on the program. The parents complained in particular the content of a book that was used for teaching, as partially pornographic. The representation precludes their religious beliefs, according to which sexuality could only take place within marriage. The two sets of parents belong to, as well as the other applicants, an evangelical Baptist church.

    The school refused to release the children from school, citing the existing compulsory education and the applicable curriculum. The parents then kept their children away from school for a week, whereupon all four parents were sentenced by a fine of 75 euros each.

    Beginning of 2007, three other sets of parents from the Baptist church refused to send their children to school because a project work under the title "My body belongs to me" was on the program. The theater workshop was intended to point to the problem of child sexual abuse and thereby contribute to prevention. The parents argued that the content is harmful for the moral development of their daughter. The Theater Project Educate the children to a "free sexuality" . They would be taught that they had to control their sexuality alone and their only counselor, and it has never mistaken, was to be their feeling. Each parent was imposed a fine of 120 euros for violation of compulsory education.

    Dispute about Mardi Gras celebration

    Finally, the children of those families were unable to attend a Mardi Gras celebration at school because these be incompatible with their religious and moral beliefs. The parent viewed that a duty to participate in a carnival event would violate the religious neutrality of the school, as Fastnacht is a celebration of the Catholic Church. It will now so acclaimed that "Catholics to indulge before Lent eating and drinking, to disguise himself and usually completely uninhibited - exempt from all morality - behaving like fools." Also in this case there were fines for violation of the compulsory education of 40 and 80 euros . As a result, three of the couples talked more children from lessons and also refused to pay all fines, which therefore kept on increasing. The six fathers and mothers were sentenced to prison terms of up to 43 days.

    Two courts , the District Court of Paderborn and the Hamm Court confirmed the sentences imposed. The Federal Constitutional Court refused to accept the complaints of the parents. A violation of fundamental rights had not been adequately explained. The fundamental right to freedom of belief is accessible to limitations that arise from the Constitution itself, it said in the grounds of the judges in Karlsruhe. For this purpose belong to the educational mission granted to the State.

    Not objectionable German compulsory education

    The Strasbourg judges now confirmed this line: The German system of compulsory education, which precluded the teaching of children at home generally, aim for the integration of children into society. The emergence of parallel societies should be prevented. Although this legal opinion must be weighed against the importance of pluralism for democracy , the Court could recognize in no violation of human rights. Also, not in this particular case. There was no indication that the education provided would have put the view expressed by the parents sexual morality into question. Religious freedom and the right of education of parents on education does not mean that a right exists, spared opinions remain conflicting with their own convictions. The applicants are free to educate their children after school and on weekends in accordance with their religious beliefs. There was also no indication that the fines imposed were disproportionate. The prison sentence was imposed because the fines were not paid, not because of the original injury of compulsory education.

    The decision was given by a Chamber of seven members, including judges from Luxembourg , Sweden , the Czech Republic , Slovenia , Liechtenstein , Ukraine and Germany .
    I simply used google translate to put this into english, you may do the same.
    Do you realize just how much of a lie "Germany Jails Eight Christian Fathers for Removing Children from Sex-Ed Class" is now?

    I would really like to apologize to anyone who rightfully feels annoyed by this whole smear campaign and my need to answer those ridiculous accusations Bluebonnet feels the urge to make in all kinds of directions.
    I can only ask that you think about how your reaction would be if someone wrote something like "hey, is it true that xxx(you!) molested a child?"
    You might wish to have the serenity to just let such unfounded lies be told without bothering, but you probably won't manage to stay silent.
    My hope remains that Bluebonnet sticks to her statement and leaves Figure Skating behind her after Sochi. Far, far behind her.
    The closing ceremony will be held February 23rd. 36 days to go.

  12. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
    - Oh - My - God. Bluebonnet, why don't you want to listen to Tonichelle's suggestion that we should all get along? To spew such incendiary and misleading words on such a thread is simply tasteless and disgusting of you. Now of course I feel the need to answer again.
    - Speaking of "going out of your way to pick a fight", as you criticized me earlier for reminding you saying that Figure Skating had become "too gay for you, and you'd therefore drop it after Sochi"... You actually researched "Germany and equality of freedom", up to five years in the past? I remember you using the word "hipocrisy" a few times with others - care to look in the mirror
    - I read this article by your source and was actually really surprised at how irresponsible the fact-checking was, given the incendiary nature of these accusations. For instance, you'll be extatic to hear that the word "Bussgeld", litterally translated as "repentance money", is actually the regular word in German for "fine". If I get a speeding ticket, I have to pay Bussgeld. There's nothing more to it. This article reminds me of the one that was linked on this forum, where some guy said the reason Nagasu wasn't sent to Sochi was because of her asian ethnicity, and he even ended his "article" with "Wagner was born in Germany" without feeling the need to mention that it was because her father was a US soldier serving his country by being stationed in Germany.
    - Does the fact that you ask me whether this was true or not mean that you haven't researched further? In case you didn't find other information, I suggest you open up to other, less "one-sided" sources than this site. I explored it a bit and found they have very strong beliefs in one certain direction and aren't exactly interested in portraying both sides to the story...
    The Internet might be a good start for you to have a more educated opinion on things.
    I hope you read this, eventually decide to research by yourself, and will be sincerely appalled by how "lifesitenews" has so blatantly lied to you. I really do.
    OK, here's the facts I found:

    I simply used google translate to put this into english, you may do the same.
    Do you realize just how much of a lie "Germany Jails Eight Christian Fathers for Removing Children from Sex-Ed Class" is now?

    I would really like to apologize to anyone who rightfully feels annoyed by this whole smear campaign and my need to answer those ridiculous accusations Bluebonnet feels the urge to make in all kinds of directions.
    I can only ask that you think about how your reaction would be if someone wrote something like "hey, is it true that xxx(you!) molested a child?"
    You might wish to have the serenity to just let such unfounded lies be told without bothering, but you probably won't manage to stay silent.
    My hope remains that Bluebonnet sticks to her statement and leaves Figure Skating behind her after Sochi. Far, far behind her.
    The closing ceremony will be held February 23rd. 36 days to go.
    Thank you for such high estimation on my enthusiasm for your country's affair. I feel that I have completely failed you. Someone mentioned the Germany incidence on yahoo when talked about Sochi Olympics. I was curious about it since I have never thought about Germany. So I googled it and easily found it. I was asking you whether it was true, wasn't I? Obviously I don't know it.

    If you and all these aggressions back off a little bit and leave the Olympics alone, there will be of course a peace. You don't need to mention every so often about my leaving the board. Now I feel that I have to stay since you so want me to leave.

    ETA:

    By the way, "compulsory education" and "no parallel societies"... Wow, sounds like what Totalitarian would do.

  13. #268
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    I like pie.

  14. #269
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    In other news: The President of Nigeria last week signed into law a prohibition against "amorous relationships" between persons of the same sex, punishable by 10 to 14 years in prison. On Thursday the first 10 "suspects" were rounded up accused of violating this law.

  15. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
    It's a delicate situation to deal with all over the world. But you're talking about a petition by many thousands in a country with 82 million inhabitants, not a law passed by the state. So, no, "this is not the situation in Germany".
    Even those thousands who signed the petition don't want it to be illegal for a gay couple to hold hands in the streets. I really don't see much of a connection here.
    Read this before you criticize Russia:

    LGBT persons' experiences of discrimination and hate crime in the EU and Croatia (May 2013)
    http://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/...eu-and-croatia

    The results show that LGBT persons in today’s EU society regularly suffer from not being able to be themselves at school, at work or in public. Many therefore hide their identity and live in isolation or even fear. Others experience discrimination and even violence when being themselves. Important differences exist among countries concerning the respondents’ perception and experience of discrimination, harassment and violence on grounds of sexual orientation and gender identity. This holds also true as regards their perceptions of the extent of negative social attitudes towards LGBT persons, as well as avoidance strategies they employ for fear of being assaulted, threatened or harassed.

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