Most popular boots/blades | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Most popular boots/blades

pooh-beanie

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
I have Paramounts, and yes they are noisy. I believe this is due to them being the 440 stainless steel version. They also make a 420 stainless steel and carbon steel models though, and I would imagine that at least the latter should sound more like a traditional blade. I'm not completely sure though, because another fundamental difference between them and traditional blades is the aluminum body - steel will flex a bit and spring back to it's original position unless bent hard enough to warp, but aluminum is very rigid and will not bend unless it is in a permanent sort of way (you would not want that!). That subtle difference in flexibility might also be the cause of more noise on the Paramounts.

I got my Paramounts back when the company was new and nobody else had any yet. At that time they only had one profile and didn't advertise that it was a mimic of Pattern 99's. I got them because I got a great deal offer on them after my previous skates with Gold Seals were stolen. I wasn't interested in them, but the price was right and I decided to give them a fair shot since I had speculated that they would be awful. I don't think they're awful, but neither do I plan on sticking with them.

The stainless steel is nice in that it stays sharp FOREVER, and you don't have to worry about possibility of rust, but I didn't think that periodic sharpenings were ever a big deal. What's really strange is that, perhaps because of the material, or again perhaps because of the lack of flex, they feel way sharper than the same sharpening on traditional blades. I used to like 3/8" or 5/16" ROH sharpenings on my Gold Seals (and before that Gold Stars) to get plenty of bite, but on the Paramounts I have only a standard 7/16" and it still feels too sharp even though it has been years since my last sharpening! I cannot do one-foot stops anymore - not for lack of skill but because when I do the blade skips and jumps across the ice unpleasantly rather than allowing a smooth stop. I suspect the problem would go away if I reduced the ROH to 1/2" or bigger. I also find the appearance of them frankly ugly. Not as bad as Matrix blades or the new Revolution blades, but ugly nonetheless. I really prefer the appearance of traditional blades - chromed single-piece steel - but especially gold plated ones. :eek::

If I had to get new Paramounts, I would try carbon steel versions with a Gold Seal profile to see what I thought. However at this point I'm eager to go back to Gold Seals - I know it's a blade that works wonderfully for me (I definitely liked moving to it from Gold Stars), I don't mind the extra weight (actually I think it's beneficial for strength development), and I prefer the appearance.

Paramount has this nice image comparing 3 common profiles (which they offer on their blades in any of the materials listed above):

http://paramountskates.com/Curves1.jpg

i think revolution blades are absolutely gorgeous, but you are entitled to your opinions.
the shape of the paramount (no idea which one- sorry) drives me insane- i despise it. also i don't even care where the sound comes from; i just know that it's there and that i never want to try them.
 

Casey

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
i think revolution blades are absolutely gorgeous, but you are entitled to your opinions.
the shape of the paramount (no idea which one- sorry) drives me insane- i despise it. also i don't even care where the sound comes from; i just know that it's there and that i never want to try them.

All the Paramounts look identical - the only difference is the color of the upper part, or the type of metal or profile of the runner. As for what's attractive versus ugly, that's of course subjective - the revolutions are a more modern look but I'm old-fashioned I suppose. What matters is that you really genuinely like whatever equipment you own. It's motivating when you can't wait to pull your beautiful skates out of the bad. It's not so great when you look around shamefully hoping nobody sees the blades you have on your skates, hehe. I am a bit spoiled - I went from black Klingbeils with natural brown leather soles and gold-plated Gold Seals to the same boots with black soles and black Paramounts. I still miss the old ones a lot!

To add insult to injury, a month or two after my skates were stolen, I received an E-mail from somebody saying they had bought them at a secondhand store for $50, read my name off the bottom and inside (Klingbeil puts your first name on the bottom and last name on the insole), googled my name and contacted me asking if I wanted them back for free. I wrote back expressing my gratitude and even offering a reward, but they never replied after that! *grrr*...

In case you're curious...
http://osss.net/images/Interests/Skates/Klingbeils & JW Gold Seals/HPIM1070.JPG
 

Casey

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
I had Graf Edmonton Specials in the past. The skate fitter who was also an ice dancer recommended them and it's what he used them. They punished my feet and made me wish I didn't have ankles or heels. They also started falling apart catastrophically within a year. Maybe okay for ice dance but I wouldn't advise them for freestyle use. I have Klingbeil now and they are a million times better.

Here is a picture of my Grafs at the heel after one year of use. I might add, that it was a year of pretty basic skating - I bought them after maybe 2 months since I first set foot in an ice rink. You could hold the blade still and wobble the top of the boot from side to side due to the heel separation. BOTH heels were separating, though the right one was worse:
http://osss.net/images/Interests/Skates/Graf Edmontons & MK Gold Stars/heel_split.jpeg
http://osss.net/images/Interests/Skates/Graf Edmontons & MK Gold Stars/right_boot-problem-1.jpeg

Also suede does not look nice as it ages:
http://osss.net/images/Interests/Skates/Graf Edmontons & MK Gold Stars/suede_discoloration.jpeg
http://osss.net/images/Interests/Skates/Graf Edmontons & MK Gold Stars/gold_star-3.jpeg
 

tommybuffano12

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 2, 2014
I'm not a metallurgist but I'm fairly certain there is no scientific evidence of stainless steel blades staying sharp for longer than carbon steel blades. It's down to maintenence. If you're lazy use stainless. If you're not use carbon. If anyone has any proof, please share!
 

yuzushenko

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 21, 2014
ultimas and jacksons are popular at my rink

the reason being is that they give free introductory skates when they register for skating classes, and they're like jacksons 120 or something. so then people move up and get jacksons cuz that's what they're used to. ultimas are what ive coaches recommend skaters

then again we dont have that deep of a talent pool..most of our regular skaters are probably preliminary at best. so they don't really need the higher level blades/boots yet. plus ultimas are cheaper and reliable.

two skaters with edeas. maybe a few riedells. but mostly jackson.

i would really like to get pattern 99 rev blades (yes, because yuzuru hanyu uses them lol)

are john wilson/MK blades really that better than ultimas?
 

vlaurend

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
I'm not a metallurgist but I'm fairly certain there is no scientific evidence of stainless steel blades staying sharp for longer than carbon steel blades. It's down to maintenence. If you're lazy use stainless. If you're not use carbon. If anyone has any proof, please share!

It's an established fact that carbon steel is stronger and harder than stainless steel. All it takes is a few Google clicks and you will see plenty of information on that from reputable sources. My blade sharpener (who has sharpened all types of high end figure skating blades for the past 15 years or so) says that, in his experience, the carbon steel blades do not need to be sharpened as often.
 

Sk8DSmom

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Sorry I beg to differ.
1st hand knowledge of a Coronation Ace & Pattern 99 blades getting sharpened every 3 - 4 weeks (20 - 30 hrs if that). I know of skaters currently in Pattern 99 needing sharpening about every 3 weeks.

While Eclipse blades generally 50-60+ hrs before sharpening is required (depending on what's going on, we can go about 5 - 6 weeks with 16+ hrs on ice per week). The stainless steel holds its edges and sharpening much longer for which I am very :) about
 

tommybuffano12

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 2, 2014
It's an established fact that carbon steel is stronger and harder than stainless steel. All it takes is a few Google clicks and you will see plenty of information on that from reputable sources. My blade sharpener (who has sharpened all types of high end figure skating blades for the past 15 years or so) says that, in his experience, the carbon steel blades do not need to be sharpened as often.

Thank you vlaurend! That's what I was thinking. I've heard that some skaters (high-end) only get their blades sharpened twice per year. I think I heard that Mishin prefers this with his skates so they don't look for excuses. Tries to get them to learn to skate on anything. I wonder how much of this "holds an edge longer" is a simple marketing ploy--your claims to scientific proof countering the stainless steel claim are more than relevant! So much of skating is "in [our] head."
 

vlaurend

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
Sorry I beg to differ.
1st hand knowledge of a Coronation Ace & Pattern 99 blades getting sharpened every 3 - 4 weeks (20 - 30 hrs if that). I know of skaters currently in Pattern 99 needing sharpening about every 3 weeks.

While Eclipse blades generally 50-60+ hrs before sharpening is required (depending on what's going on, we can go about 5 - 6 weeks with 16+ hrs on ice per week). The stainless steel holds its edges and sharpening much longer for which I am very :) about

Coronation Ace and Pattern 99 blades are both stainless steel. I don't know what type of stainless steel the Eclipse blades are made of (although they say it is Swedish) but it might be harder than what MK/Wilson uses. I presume there is some range in the hardness of stainless steel.
 
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tstop4me

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 2, 2015
Country
United-States
Coronation Ace and Pattern 99 blades are both stainless steel. I don't know what type of stainless steel the Eclipse blades are made of (although they say it is Swedish) but it might be harder than what MK/Wilson uses. I presume there is some range in the hardness of stainless steel.

Sorry, but this is not correct. There have been various posts in skating forums concerning the steel used in Wilson blades. They didn't sound right to me, so I e-mailed Wilson in the UK. Took a while, but they did finally respond a few weeks ago (late Nov 2015). The steel in ALL Wilson blades (traditional and Revolution) is carbon steel. I can personally attest to Coronation Ace. I bought my first pair in the late '70s, and my most recent pair a year ago. They have all been carbon steel. For my next pair of blades, I will likely consider the Eclipse Aurora, advertised as a Coronation Ace clone, but fabricated from German 440C stainless steel.
 
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tstop4me

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 2, 2015
Country
United-States
The hardness of carbon steel and stainless steel both vary and depend on a number of factors, including alloy composition, mechanical treatment, and thermal treatment. Theoretically, the hardest grade of steel is a particular type of carbon steel (martensite), but it is so brittle that it's not serviceable for a skate blade (it's so brittle that it's more similar to a ceramic than to a metal; a popular demo in metallurgy class is to strike a sample with a hammer: the sample will shatter, not bend). Both carbon steel and stainless steel can be fabricated such that their hardness is too high to be serviceable for skate blades. So the issue of which is the hardest is moot. Their hardness overlap in the range serviceable for skate blades. Then it comes down to alloy composition, mechanical treatment, and thermal treatment (and other factors), rather than a simple distinction between carbon steel and stainless steel.

"Edge retention" on a skate blade depends on a number of metallurgical parameters, including hardness, toughness, and corrosion resistance. All this, of course, is complicated by the abuse the edges are subjected to, especially during spins and jumps. I have never seen any data comparing the edge retention capability of various carbon steels and stainless steels under controlled conditions. However, the shop I go to has two guys who (1) sharpen skates, (2) are coaches, (3) were former competitive skaters, and (4) have skated on both carbon steel and stainless steel blades. They both tell me that, based on their experiences, (1) stainless steel takes more time to sharpen than carbon steel and (2) stainless steel retains an edge longer than carbon steel.
 
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Babbette1

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Sorry, but this is not correct. There have been various posts in skating forums concerning the steel used in Wilson blades. They didn't sound right to me, so I e-mailed Wilson in the UK. Took a while, but they did finally respond a few weeks ago (late Nov 2015). The steel in ALL Wilson blades (traditional and Revolution) is carbon steel. I can personally attest to Coronation Ace. I bought my first pair in the late '70s, and my most recent pair a year ago. They have all been carbon steel. For my next pair of blades, I will likely consider the Eclipse Aurora, advertised as a Coronation Ace clone, but fabricated from German 440C stainless steel.

I just got a pair of Eclipse Aurora from Riedell. I'm waiting for my tech to give me a date for mounting them.

I want to point out that carbon steel is not just one kind of steel. There's hundreds of kinds of carbon steel. The one I see used in blades is 1075 carbon steel. There's also a way to harden carbon steel, but that seems to bring its own kind of problems with it. I don't believe there is a one size fits all answer on this issue.

My experience with my present MK PROs (which are 'spring steel' which is a fancy name for carbon steel), is that ROH makes a difference on how long between sharpenings. I prefer a 1/2" ROH for reasons I won't bore you with. When my Pros were 7/8" ROH, I could skate on them for 40 hours w/ a sharpening. With the 1/2" ROH I could skate 10 hours until they went dull, then I have to touch them up with Pro-File hand sharpeners. It actually is working out well. I can keep my edges just where I want them. However, I decided to give the stainless steel ones a try to see if I could go more than 5 hours between touchups.
 
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tstop4me

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 2, 2015
Country
United-States
I just got a pair of Eclipse Aurora from Riedell. I'm waiting for my tech to give me a date for mounting them.

I want to point out that carbon steel is not just one kind of steel. There's hundreds of kinds of carbon steel. The one I see used in blades is 1075 carbon steel. There's also a way to harden carbon steel, but that seems to bring its own kind of problems with it. I don't believe there is a one size fits all answer on this issue.

My experience with my present MK PROs (which are 'spring steel' which is a fancy name for carbon steel), is that ROH makes a difference on how long between sharpenings. I prefer a 1/2" ROH for reasons I won't bore you with. When my Pros were 7/8" ROH, I could skate on them for 40 hours w/ a sharpening. With the 1/2" ROH I could skate 10 hours until they went dull, then I have to touch them up with Pro-File hand sharpeners. It actually is working out well. I can keep my edges just where I want them. However, I decided to give the stainless steel ones a try to see if I could go more than 5 hours between touchups.

I gave a more comprehensive metallurgical discussion above, in a separate reply.

Some comments on your response. (a) Yes, both "carbon steel" and "stainless steel" refer to classes of steel with a range of alloy compositions. (b) "Spring steel" is not a fancy name for carbon steel. "Spring steel" refers to steel with mechanical properties that are, well, suitable for springs. There are spring steels that are carbon steels, and there are spring steels that are stainless steels. There are carbon steels that are not spring steels, and there are stainless steels that are not spring steels. That is, "spring steel" refers to a particular application, rather than to a particular alloy composition. (c) To be serviceable for skate blades, carbon steel and stainless steel are generally (I believe always, but there may be outliers I'm not aware of) hardened and tempered.

The point is that I see posts with simplistic blanket statements such as "stainless steel is harder than carbon steel" or "carbon steel is harder than stainless steel". As I discussed in my more comprehensive reply above, the situation is more complex, and such simplistic blanket statements don't hold.

Your discussion of ROH raises an important point. If you are doing an A-B comparison of different steels, it's important that other parameters (such as blade profile, ROH, skater, maneuvers) are the same as much as practical, with the realization that we are dealing with a skater on a rink, rather than controlled lab conditions. In this regard, the Paramount blades present an interesting opportunity for study. Their high-end blades are supplied in both 440 and 420 stainless steel, with the 440 substantially higher in price. It would be interesting to find out whether the 440 keeps an edge substantially longer than 420. It's curious that Riedell chose 440C for the Aurora, which is an intermediate blade at a good price point; makes me wonder about the Paramount offerrings.
 
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vlaurend

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
Sorry, but this is not correct. There have been various posts in skating forums concerning the steel used in Wilson blades. They didn't sound right to me, so I e-mailed Wilson in the UK. Took a while, but they did finally respond a few weeks ago (late Nov 2015). The steel in ALL Wilson blades (traditional and Revolution) is carbon steel. I can personally attest to Coronation Ace. I bought my first pair in the late '70s, and my most recent pair a year ago. They have all been carbon steel. For my next pair of blades, I will likely consider the Eclipse Aurora, advertised as a Coronation Ace clone, but fabricated from German 440C stainless steel.

Wow, I had always heard MK and Wilson described as stainless steel blades, so that is surprising. Thank you for going to the extra effort to get that information straight from Wilson!
 

Babbette1

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
I gave a more comprehensive metallurgical discussion above, in a separate reply.

Some comments on your response. (a) Yes, both "carbon steel" and "stainless steel" refer to classes of steel with a range of alloy compositions. (b) "Spring steel" is not a fancy name for carbon steel. "Spring steel" refers to steel with mechanical properties that are, well, suitable for springs. There are spring steels that are carbon steels, and there are spring steels that are stainless steels. There are carbon steels that are not spring steels, and there are stainless steels that are not spring steels. That is, "spring steel" refers to a particular application, rather than to a particular alloy composition. (c) To be serviceable for skate blades, carbon steel and stainless steel are generally (I believe always, but there may be outliers I'm not aware of) hardened and tempered.

The point is that I see posts with simplistic blanket statements such as "stainless steel is harder than carbon steel" or "carbon steel is harder than stainless steel". As I discussed in my more comprehensive reply above, the situation is more complex, and such simplistic blanket statements don't hold.

Your discussion of ROH raises an important point. If you are doing an A-B comparison of different steels, it's important that other parameters (such as blade profile, ROH, skater, maneuvers) are the same as much as practical, with the realization that we are dealing with a skater on a rink, rather than controlled lab conditions. In this regard, the Paramount blades present an interesting opportunity for study. Their high-end blades are supplied in both 440 and 420 stainless steel, with the 440 substantially higher in price. It would be interesting to find out whether the 440 keeps an edge substantially longer than 420. It's curious that Riedell chose 440C for the Aurora, which is an intermediate blade at a good price point; makes me wonder about the Paramount offerrings.

You are correct that 'spring steel' is not just carbon steel. I was sloppy when I wrote that sentence. 1075 carbon steel is the steel used in some of Riedell's blades. 1075 carbon steel is also one of the several spring steels. Wilson says on its site that it uses 'spring steel'. Hey it could be 1095, but it could also be 1075 since that's a good carbon steel at a good price point and other blade manufacturers use it.

I've got no issue with the fact that Wilson says it uses 'spring steel' as that's a general industry term for the steel it uses. I think it's use may be a little disingenuous since it gives an impression that the blades may give you more 'spring'. It's not false advertising at all. It's a correct industry term, that can be misinterpreted by the casual (non-engineer, non-technical person) skater as a capability that the blade does not have. I mean it's a lucky industry name for the type of steel they use, lucky for the copywriter that is.

tstop4me you seem so knowledgeable, what's 'german steel'? It again, seems to be an industry term, and pops up in archery, knifemaking, and golf forums, but no one knows what it means. The whole 'german' term really gives it a cool name, but on the other hand, I remember, german silver...isn't silver.
 

tstop4me

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 2, 2015
Country
United-States
You are correct that 'spring steel' is not just carbon steel. I was sloppy when I wrote that sentence. 1075 carbon steel is the steel used in some of Riedell's blades. 1075 carbon steel is also one of the several spring steels. Wilson says on its site that it uses 'spring steel'. Hey it could be 1095, but it could also be 1075 since that's a good carbon steel at a good price point and other blade manufacturers use it.

I've got no issue with the fact that Wilson says it uses 'spring steel' as that's a general industry term for the steel it uses. I think it's use may be a little disingenuous since it gives an impression that the blades may give you more 'spring'. It's not false advertising at all. It's a correct industry term, that can be misinterpreted by the casual (non-engineer, non-technical person) skater as a capability that the blade does not have. I mean it's a lucky industry name for the type of steel they use, lucky for the copywriter that is.

tstop4me you seem so knowledgeable, what's 'german steel'? It again, seems to be an industry term, and pops up in archery, knifemaking, and golf forums, but no one knows what it means. The whole 'german' term really gives it a cool name, but on the other hand, I remember, german silver...isn't silver.

I never thought about the marketing hype implications of “spring steel”; that is, spring action leading to higher jumps. :agree: From an engineering perspective, though, it is proper. Since blades are subject to large impacts upon landing jumps, you want a steel that elastically deforms (springs back to its original form). If the steel is too soft, it will plastically deform (bend). If the steel is too brittle, it will break. Paramount advertises 1085 for their carbon steel blades.


“German steel” isn’t an industry term that specifies a particular alloy. It’s really a marketing term, which can be used properly or improperly. Properly used, it indicates steel manufactured in Germany. There are several regions famous for high-grade steel, including Sheffield (England), Solingen (Germany), Uppsala (Sweden), and Seki City (Japan). So English steel, German steel, Swedish steel, and Japanese steel (along with Sheffield steel and Solingen steel) can be properly used to indicate place of manufacture. The steel produced from the raw materials in each region will often have distinct alloy compositions and undergo distinct mechanical and thermal treatment, leading to distinct properties. Initially these factors were not well understood. Hence some companies improperly use English, German, Swedish, and Japanese to refer to different grades of steel. However, metallurgical science and engineering have advanced such that the precise alloy composition (including trace elements) can be specified. Mechanical and thermal treatments are also well controlled (some maintained as trade secrets). Starting with the same alloy composition, different mechanical and thermal treatments will yield different mechanical properties, such as hardness, toughness, and elasticity. Steel mills (in any particular location) generally produce more than one particular grade of steel; and any one particular grade of steel (with a disclosed alloy composition) can be produced in different locations. Particular locations, however, can specialize in particular alloy compositions. The alloy compositions of some steels are proprietary.


Riedell Eclipse advertises “German 440C stainless steel” for the Aurora and “Swedish stainless steel” for the runners on their top-of-the-line titanium blades (titanium alloy is used for the body of the blades). My guess (strictly a guess) is that Riedell is referring to “German” and “Swedish” here as country of origin. Some grades of stainless steel produced by Sandvik in Sweden have become popular for high-end knives (I have one).
 
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daniiltimin

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 7, 2015
I just got new pair of skates - Riedell Aria with Pinnacle blades, for the past 10 years I had Graf's and Gold Seal. Very excited :hap93:
 
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