Will Mirai Appeal Decision for Olympic Team?

Frenchie · Jan 15, 2014

FlattFan said:
What the hell are you on about?
During 2010 Olympics, they had the same guideline.
During the broadcast, and right at the conclusion of the Pairs LP, either Scott or Mark wondered if McL/B would be put on the team for their body of work being much stronger than E/L. Sandra, this hypocrite, said, and I quote, "I'm old school, top 2 go"

Same situation here. Mirai should go.

I have read on this forum about 100 times within the last few days that the guidelines were changed in 2012. So the guidelines in 2010 were not the same.
One might disagree with the new guidelines, or say that they should have been publicized more clearly, or have been thought out to the extreme as to come up with a clear ranking pre-US Nationals, that would clearly define "to beat Wagner for Sochi, Nagasu needs to beat her at US Nationals by 15.37points" which everyone would have known before the US Nationals even began.

But the fact of the matter is, that's how it is now. This is page 39 in one of the several identical threads that deal with the same subject, I don't think we'll be getting any new perspective on this on page 40.
Come hang around in the Euros corner, guys, it's fun!

caseyl23 · Jan 15, 2014

drivingmissdaisy said:
The policy used for Ashley didn't exist then. And with an 11th place finish at Worlds they were no where near medal contenders.

Your first argument is correct and a very valid point. Your second point, however, doesn't appear to matter according to USFSA's own criteria. In the Sept. 2012 document, they say the following:
"To field the most competitive team, U.S. Figure Skating’s ICMS will take into consideration the performances and results from the events outlined below to determine athletes who will have the most performance impact at the 2014 Olympic Winter Games."

It doesn't seem, from the parts of the document I've read (Admittedly, I haven't read all of it.), that a skater or team's perceived status in regards to winning a medal matters at all – just that they are part of the "most competitive team." Therefore, I'd argue if McLaughlin and Brubaker (given their track record) were competing this year, finished third and failed to make the team, that USFSA misused its criteria, even practiced it inconsistently in light of the ladies' situation. In that case, I'd be curious to know if M/B would have a case for appealing the USFSA's decision.

Icey · Jan 15, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Mirai was also 7th at last year's Nationals which hurt her cause. Other than her bronzes at NHK 2012 and CoR 2013, Mirai hasn't had any solid placements in the past 2 years.

Edmunds was 6th or 7th at last years nationals (junior). Should that have hurt her too, especially considering how close her and marai's score was?

mirai4life · Jan 15, 2014

Ashley Wagner
2013 Grand Prix Trophée Eric Bompard 194.71
2013–14 Grand Prix Final 187.61
2014 U.S. Championships 182.74
2014 Olympics ____________

The downhill wagner. vs the uphill Nagasu. It's all about peaking at the right time and MIRAI did that. So unfair

burntBREAD · Jan 15, 2014

Icey said:
Edmunds was 6th or 7th at last years nationals (junior). Should that have hurt her too, especially considering how close her and marai's score was?

No, she won last year. She was 7th two years ago.

Skater Boy · Jan 15, 2014

drivingmissdaisy said:
And you are completely ignoring that fact that it is crystal clear Ashley's body of work is superior to Mirai under the factors considered. You have not once countered that convincingly at all.

THis thread has gotten so large and I know someone printed out the USFSA criteria for the olympics - I am pretty sure it included junior world championships, junior grand prix events, junior gpf finals and the same for seniors as well as other competitions. So that does not preclude Polina for getting some credit and maybe being very competitiive with Mirai if not beating her.

drivingmissdaisy · Jan 15, 2014

burntBREAD said:
No, she won last year. She was 7th two years ago.

Geez, Mirai fans are trying hard to dig up dirt on Polina and Ashley, as if it's going to disqualify them.

Icey · Jan 15, 2014

burntBREAD said:
No, she won last year. She was 7th two years ago.

Sorry, they had her competitive chart organized in an unusual way. But I don't see any ranking for world's juniors that year. Was there some reason she didn't go?

chuckm · Jan 15, 2014

Icey said:
Edmunds was 6th or 7th at last years nationals (junior). Should that have hurt her too, especially considering how close her and marai's score was?

Edmunds WON 2013 Nationals last year. She was 6th at 2012 Nationals, beyond the period under consideration, but if you must look that far back, Mirai was 7th at 2012 Nationals, which makes her record look even worse.

jimini · Jan 15, 2014

Frenchie said:
I have read on this forum about 100 times within the last few days that the guidelines were changed in 2012. So the guidelines in 2010 were not the same.
One might disagree with the new guidelines, or say that they should have been publicized more clearly, or have been thought out to the extreme as to come up with a clear ranking pre-US Nationals, that would clearly define "to beat Wagner for Sochi, Nagasu needs to beat her at US Nationals by 15.37points" which everyone would have known before the US Nationals even began.

What were the changes between 2010 and this season? Just curious since the only thing noticeable I found was the addition of the Grand Prix circuit itself, before only the Final was considered. The 2006 and 2010 Olympic selection criteria only had 6 events each.

2006 Olympics selection criteria, "tryout events" priority order:
a) 2006 State Farm U.S. Championships
b) 2005 ISU Senior Grand Prix Final
c) 2005 World Figure Skating Championships
d) 2005 Four Continents Figure Skating Championships
e) 2005 ISU Junior Grand Prix Final
f) 2005 World Junior Figure Skating Championships
NOTE: U.S. Champion received automatic spot per the 2006 selection doc

2010 Olympics selection criteria, "tryout events" priority order:
1. 2010 U.S. Figure skating Championships
2. 2009/10 ISU Grand Prix Final
3. 2009 World Figure Skating Championships
4. 2009 Four Continents Figure Skating Championships
5. 2009 World Junior Figure Skating Championships
6. 2009/10 ISU Junior Grand Prix Final
NOTE: Unlike 2006, U.S. champion not guaranteed a slot per the 2010 selection doc

Semi-related, does anyone have the criteria from pre-2006? I haven't been able to find anything but I figured it might be interesting to compare.

Mathman · Jan 15, 2014

jimini said:
What were the changes between 2010 and this season? Just curious since the only thing noticeable I found was the addition of the Grand Prix circuit itself, before only the Final was considered. The 2006 and 2010 Olympic selection criteria only had 6 events each.

2006 Olympics selection criteria, "tryout events" priority order:
a) 2006 State Farm U.S. Championships
b) 2005 ISU Senior Grand Prix Final
c) 2005 World Figure Skating Championships
d) 2005 Four Continents Figure Skating Championships
e) 2005 ISU Junior Grand Prix Final
f) 2005 World Junior Figure Skating Championships
NOTE: U.S. Champion received automatic spot per the 2006 selection doc

2010 Olympics selection criteria, "tryout events" priority order:
1. 2010 U.S. Figure skating Championships
2. 2009/10 ISU Grand Prix Final
3. 2009 World Figure Skating Championships
4. 2009 Four Continents Figure Skating Championships
5. 2009 World Junior Figure Skating Championships
6. 2009/10 ISU Junior Grand Prix Final
NOTE: Unlike 2006, U.S. champion not guaranteed a slot per the 2010 selection doc

I think the problem is that the USFSA never, until this year, gave any indication that they paid any attention whatever to items 2 through 6. They seemed to be there just to waste ink.

For instance, in 2006 unheralded Hinzman and Parchem scored 165.82 to edge highly regarded defending national champions Orcher and Lucash (165.16) for silver. Hinzman and Parchem went to the Olympics. Orcher and Lucash were sad. But what could they say? They didn't finish in the top two and there were only two spots.

In 2010 Evora and Ladwig scored 173.78 winning silver against 173.18 for Inoue and Baldwin. Previous Olympians and multi-time U.S. champs I&B had a solid international record, but…no cigar this time around.

(Actually, in this case John Baldwin did kick up some sand about how he deserved to go anyway. Unfortunately for Baldwin, though, everyone loved Amanda Evora and found John annoying, so his complaints did not get any traction.

)

With results of this sort year after year, it is no wonder that most of us were lulled into a false sense of security about the intentions of the USFSA selection committee. Now our little bubble is popped.

FlattFan · Jan 15, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
The opinion of the federation based on the criteria they've set out is what matters. We all agree that it's unfair to Mirai or M/B, but based on their own rulings, the skaters sent to the Olympics are who the federation best believes fit their criteria.

M/B not going to Vancouver was a bit of a jip, but they had 4 teams ahead of them for 2 spots (versus Ashley having 3 ladies ahead of hear for 3 spots). Much more of a stretch to send M/B. If I/B weren't going over E/L, M/B sure as hell weren't. And again, comparing M/B's accolades to Ashley's the past two seasons, Ashley has been far more valuable/productive/whatever you want to call it.

Anyways, this is getting into a long-winded fest. Mirai can't do anything about Sochi, and should focus on 4CC. Perhaps with a good performance there, the fed might change their mind about not sending her to Worlds.

Like I said, it's a slippery slope.
Would they still send her if instead of 3 GP win, she only has 2 GP win, or 1, or 0? Where do you draw the line?

M/B were in top 5. Same with Ashley. That's the requirement, isn't it? Making top 5 at Nationals, and then it's body of work.
Again, you are using vague "far more valuable/productive" to justify sending Ashley. If she has one less GP win, is she far more valuable/productive? If you don't have a clear criteria, a body of work is a body of work. One body of work is better than the other body of work. That's all.

The problem is playing fast and loose and someone will get burned. Mirai is the first victim.

b-man · Jan 15, 2014

drivingmissdaisy said:
Geez, Mirai fans are trying hard to dig up dirt on Polina and Ashley, as if it's going to disqualify them.

And I have dozens of posts denegrating every skate Mirai ever had.

bekalc · Jan 15, 2014

pangtongfan said:
Those examples just prove all the more why what the USFSA is GREAT for the sport and for the future of U.S skating. Those people in the examples you listed should not have gone to the big event (as much as it pains me to say it as I love Mark and Amanda and cant stand John Baldwin). Some of the cases like Abbott vs Miner in 2011 were borderline idiotic. It is time for the USFSA to move on from their old dinosaur approach to team selection and get with the times. At last they have, and they should thank Wagner for messing up badly enough to create a case that was so blatantly obvious they had to finally apply their new so called criteria.

I think there's a difference between one team being sort of better but hardly top in the world, and Wagner who has medaled the last two years on the GPF.

To me why not go with nationals if you know that either team is going to medal. In terms of E/L their international scores skyrocketed as soon as they made major competitions....

Sasha'sSpins · Jan 15, 2014

Bluebonnet said:
Sorry. I call her with the pronouciation of Mirai, but I didn't pay attention on spelling.

No worries!

Wow - don't know if this was posted somewhere already but some of the headlines on the controversy are really getting out there!: Conspiracy suspected as figure skating selects Wagner ousts Nagasu for Olympics

R.D. said:
Sigh...

You know, I was on the "If not Olympics, Nagasu should at least get Worlds" train...but you know, once the emotions died down and I got a clear head on the issue, it makes perfect sense from the perspective of maintaining 3 spots for 2015. Honestly, if you look at it from the perspective of sending our strongest possible team, as much as it sucks for her, Nagasu doesn't fit anywhere into the equation. Gold and Wagner have the rep; Edmunds (in theory, at least) has the difficulty. Nagasu has experience but has been all over the place, even this season. She's so unpredictable and I can understand why the USFS isn't willing to take (another) chance on her. I just wish they'd be more consistent with their decision-making because sometimes it appears that they "play favorites".

It doesn't 'appear' that they play favorites. They DO play favorites. At the national level they consistently favored Rachael over Mirai, Agnes over Mirai, and now Polina over Mirai.

Layfan · Jan 15, 2014

Something just struck me and I'll throw it out there:

Mirai was denied a spot in the Olympic and world teams because her record over the past two seasons hasn't been good, especially compared to Ashley's. But in denying her a spot for the world team, they are also hurting Mirai's chances of building up a good record for next season. It's Ashley who gets to go to world and then come to nationals again and say "See, I medaled at worlds, or came in 4th, or whatever." Mirai doesn't even get that chance.

Does this seem like a dismal precedence to anyone else? This year, it's Mirai. Next year, maybe Christina Gao or Agnes or whoever might get on the podium instead of Gracie or Polina. And the committee can decide they don't like it so they'll just send who they want to worlds. And then Christina or Agnes get thwarted in their efforts to keep gaining momentum.

I haven't been much of a fan of Mirai's skating the last couple of years, while I have really enjoyed Ashley. I'll admit that makes it a little easier to swallow this move, but the more I think about it then more I think "the rules" stink.

MiRé · Jan 15, 2014

Ashley posted new tweets on her twitter. She should've just kept her mouth quiet until Sochi. She couldn't resist social media for 3 days :rolleye:

ice coverage · Jan 15, 2014

Melon said:
Ashley posted new tweets on her twitter. She should've just kept her mouth quiet until Sochi. She couldn't resist social media for 3 days

I read the new tweets from ‏@AshWagner2010 a couple of hours ago, and found nothing wrong with them.
Going back to re-read them, I still find nothing wrong with them.

I want to say thank you 2 those who have been so supportive this week. In no way was it the skate I wanted, but u gave me a reason to smile.
5:07 PM - 15 Jan 2014
https://twitter.com/AshWagner2010/statuses/423577156367958017

So thank you, for seeing beyond this and helping push me forward to Sochi. I am ready to begin this journey, I will not let this define me.
5:10 PM - 15 Jan 2014
https://twitter.com/AshWagner2010/statuses/423577997846016000

If you have a complaint against USFS, that is a separate matter. Don't take it out on Wagner.

(I am sad for Mirai, but I don't see Wagner as a villain.)

ks777 · Jan 15, 2014

Melon said:
Ashley posted new tweets on her twitter. She should've just kept her mouth quiet until Sochi. She couldn't resist social media for 3 days

lol. well I don't blame her.

Mathman · Jan 15, 2014

pangtongfan said:
Those examples just prove all the more why what the USFSA {did} is GREAT for the sport and for the future of U.S skating. Those people in the examples you listed should not have gone to the big event...

The reason that this turn of events saddens me is this. I believe that these teams (Ladwig and Evora and Hinzman and Parchem) should have gone to the Olympics. They earned it.

To change "they earned it" to "what gives the U.S. the best chance to get more medals" -- no, I do not agree that this is great for the future of figure skating in the U.S. The USFSA has a hundred thousand or so members, to most of whom the Olympics and world championships are utterly irrelevant. it is far, far better to run a clean, straight-up program than to sneak around obsessed by trying to get one-upsmanship on other countries.

Will Mirai Appeal Decision for Olympic Team?

Frenchie

I'm gonna customize the CRAP out of this title!

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