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Thread: Will Mirai Appeal Decision for Olympic Team?

  1. #571
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimini View Post
    What were the changes between 2010 and this season? Just curious since the only thing noticeable I found was the addition of the Grand Prix circuit itself, before only the Final was considered. The 2006 and 2010 Olympic selection criteria only had 6 events each.

    2006 Olympics selection criteria, "tryout events" priority order:
    a) 2006 State Farm U.S. Championships
    b) 2005 ISU Senior Grand Prix Final
    c) 2005 World Figure Skating Championships
    d) 2005 Four Continents Figure Skating Championships
    e) 2005 ISU Junior Grand Prix Final
    f) 2005 World Junior Figure Skating Championships
    NOTE: U.S. Champion received automatic spot per the 2006 selection doc

    2010 Olympics selection criteria, "tryout events" priority order:
    1. 2010 U.S. Figure skating Championships
    2. 2009/10 ISU Grand Prix Final
    3. 2009 World Figure Skating Championships
    4. 2009 Four Continents Figure Skating Championships
    5. 2009 World Junior Figure Skating Championships
    6. 2009/10 ISU Junior Grand Prix Final
    NOTE: Unlike 2006, U.S. champion not guaranteed a slot per the 2010 selection doc
    I think the problem is that the USFSA never, until this year, gave any indication that they paid any attention whatever to items 2 through 6. They seemed to be there just to waste ink.

    For instance, in 2006 unheralded Hinzman and Parchem scored 165.82 to edge highly regarded defending national champions Orcher and Lucash (165.16) for silver. Hinzman and Parchem went to the Olympics. Orcher and Lucash were sad. But what could they say? They didn't finish in the top two and there were only two spots.

    In 2010 Evora and Ladwig scored 173.78 winning silver against 173.18 for Inoue and Baldwin. Previous Olympians and multi-time U.S. champs I&B had a solid international record, but…no cigar this time around.

    (Actually, in this case John Baldwin did kick up some sand about how he deserved to go anyway. Unfortunately for Baldwin, though, everyone loved Amanda Evora and found John annoying, so his complaints did not get any traction. )

    With results of this sort year after year, it is no wonder that most of us were lulled into a false sense of security about the intentions of the USFSA selection committee. Now our little bubble is popped.

  2. #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    The opinion of the federation based on the criteria they've set out is what matters. We all agree that it's unfair to Mirai or M/B, but based on their own rulings, the skaters sent to the Olympics are who the federation best believes fit their criteria.

    M/B not going to Vancouver was a bit of a jip, but they had 4 teams ahead of them for 2 spots (versus Ashley having 3 ladies ahead of hear for 3 spots). Much more of a stretch to send M/B. If I/B weren't going over E/L, M/B sure as hell weren't. And again, comparing M/B's accolades to Ashley's the past two seasons, Ashley has been far more valuable/productive/whatever you want to call it.

    Anyways, this is getting into a long-winded fest. Mirai can't do anything about Sochi, and should focus on 4CC. Perhaps with a good performance there, the fed might change their mind about not sending her to Worlds.
    Like I said, it's a slippery slope.
    Would they still send her if instead of 3 GP win, she only has 2 GP win, or 1, or 0? Where do you draw the line?

    M/B were in top 5. Same with Ashley. That's the requirement, isn't it? Making top 5 at Nationals, and then it's body of work.
    Again, you are using vague "far more valuable/productive" to justify sending Ashley. If she has one less GP win, is she far more valuable/productive? If you don't have a clear criteria, a body of work is a body of work. One body of work is better than the other body of work. That's all.

    The problem is playing fast and loose and someone will get burned. Mirai is the first victim.

  3. #573
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Geez, Mirai fans are trying hard to dig up dirt on Polina and Ashley, as if it's going to disqualify them.
    And I have dozens of posts denegrating every skate Mirai ever had.

  4. #574
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Those examples just prove all the more why what the USFSA is GREAT for the sport and for the future of U.S skating. Those people in the examples you listed should not have gone to the big event (as much as it pains me to say it as I love Mark and Amanda and cant stand John Baldwin). Some of the cases like Abbott vs Miner in 2011 were borderline idiotic. It is time for the USFSA to move on from their old dinosaur approach to team selection and get with the times. At last they have, and they should thank Wagner for messing up badly enough to create a case that was so blatantly obvious they had to finally apply their new so called criteria.
    I think there's a difference between one team being sort of better but hardly top in the world, and Wagner who has medaled the last two years on the GPF.

    To me why not go with nationals if you know that either team is going to medal. In terms of E/L their international scores skyrocketed as soon as they made major competitions....

  5. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Sorry. I call her with the pronouciation of Mirai, but I didn't pay attention on spelling.
    No worries!

    Wow - don't know if this was posted somewhere already but some of the headlines on the controversy are really getting out there!: Conspiracy suspected as figure skating selects Wagner ousts Nagasu for Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    Sigh...

    You know, I was on the "If not Olympics, Nagasu should at least get Worlds" train...but you know, once the emotions died down and I got a clear head on the issue, it makes perfect sense from the perspective of maintaining 3 spots for 2015. Honestly, if you look at it from the perspective of sending our strongest possible team, as much as it sucks for her, Nagasu doesn't fit anywhere into the equation. Gold and Wagner have the rep; Edmunds (in theory, at least) has the difficulty. Nagasu has experience but has been all over the place, even this season. She's so unpredictable and I can understand why the USFS isn't willing to take (another) chance on her. I just wish they'd be more consistent with their decision-making because sometimes it appears that they "play favorites".
    It doesn't 'appear' that they play favorites. They DO play favorites. At the national level they consistently favored Rachael over Mirai, Agnes over Mirai, and now Polina over Mirai.

  6. #576
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Something just struck me and I'll throw it out there:

    Mirai was denied a spot in the Olympic and world teams because her record over the past two seasons hasn't been good, especially compared to Ashley's. But in denying her a spot for the world team, they are also hurting Mirai's chances of building up a good record for next season. It's Ashley who gets to go to world and then come to nationals again and say "See, I medaled at worlds, or came in 4th, or whatever." Mirai doesn't even get that chance.

    Does this seem like a dismal precedence to anyone else? This year, it's Mirai. Next year, maybe Christina Gao or Agnes or whoever might get on the podium instead of Gracie or Polina. And the committee can decide they don't like it so they'll just send who they want to worlds. And then Christina or Agnes get thwarted in their efforts to keep gaining momentum.

    I haven't been much of a fan of Mirai's skating the last couple of years, while I have really enjoyed Ashley. I'll admit that makes it a little easier to swallow this move, but the more I think about it then more I think "the rules" stink.

  7. #577
    Adiós Melon's Avatar
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    Ashley posted new tweets on her twitter. She should've just kept her mouth quiet until Sochi. She couldn't resist social media for 3 days

  8. #578
    Celebrating the Excellence of #VirtueMoir golden411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melon View Post
    Ashley posted new tweets on her twitter. She should've just kept her mouth quiet until Sochi. She couldn't resist social media for 3 days
    I read the new tweets from ‏@AshWagner2010 a couple of hours ago, and found nothing wrong with them.
    Going back to re-read them, I still find nothing wrong with them.

    I want to say thank you 2 those who have been so supportive this week. In no way was it the skate I wanted, but u gave me a reason to smile.
    5:07 PM - 15 Jan 2014
    https://twitter.com/AshWagner2010/st...77156367958017

    So thank you, for seeing beyond this and helping push me forward to Sochi. I am ready to begin this journey, I will not let this define me.
    5:10 PM - 15 Jan 2014
    https://twitter.com/AshWagner2010/st...77997846016000

    If you have a complaint against USFS, that is a separate matter. Don't take it out on Wagner.

    (I am sad for Mirai, but I don't see Wagner as a villain.)

  9. #579
    Custom Title ks777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melon View Post
    Ashley posted new tweets on her twitter. She should've just kept her mouth quiet until Sochi. She couldn't resist social media for 3 days
    lol. well I don't blame her.

  10. #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Those examples just prove all the more why what the USFSA {did} is GREAT for the sport and for the future of U.S skating. Those people in the examples you listed should not have gone to the big event...
    The reason that this turn of events saddens me is this. I believe that these teams (Ladwig and Evora and Hinzman and Parchem) should have gone to the Olympics. They earned it.

    To change "they earned it" to "what gives the U.S. the best chance to get more medals" -- no, I do not agree that this is great for the future of figure skating in the U.S. The USFSA has a hundred thousand or so members, to most of whom the Olympics and world championships are utterly irrelevant. it is far, far better to run a clean, straight-up program than to sneak around obsessed by trying to get one-upsmanship on other countries.

  11. #581
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    The problem with this line of reasoning is that the way the GP operates, the only selection over which a host federation has complete control is the HOST PICKS. The top 3 seeds are allowed to name their choices, in order, and these are usually honored, so the hosts don't select those. After the top seeds,a separate draw is held for each category: seeds 4-6, Worlds 7-9, Worlds 10-12, top 24 WR, top 24 SB, etc. In each category, the host that gets first draw has the widest choice; the host that gets draw 6 gets what's left over. If a host always gets first draw, sure, they could cherry pick the best lineup for their skaters, but that is unlikely to happen.

    Mirai usually gets invited by NHK, which makes sense, but it isn't always to her advantage since the Japanese ladies are a tough bunch, and the JSF usually uses the host pick for their seeds. USFS has no control whatsoever over invitations to Mirai or Ashley from other hosts.
    You may be more knowledgable about the GP selection process than I, but the fact remains in 2012 SA was probably the weakest of the GP's, enabling Wagner to score an easy win. The field was so weak Gao was able to piggyback on the weak field and score a silver. You may say its luck or coincidence, I think the US Fed played a part in paving the way for Wagner to go to the GPF. Some Feds appear to want weak fields to help their skaters score points, other Feds may want stronger fields to sell tickets and not lose money as a host. In 2013, SA was still one of the weaker GP's, with Wagner getting a silver. Its much easier to have a "better body of work" when you Fed gets comparative cupcake GP's for you. TEB was also a weaker field for Wagner. You notice Gold, despite skating pretty well, didn't make the GP final. She had the difficult NHK, like Mirai. Gold also had a tougher field than Wagner at SC while Mirai had a difficult field in Russia. Mirai has a GP medal each of the last four years, more than Flatt, Czisny, Gao, Zawadzki, hicks, Cesario, Gold, Edmunds, etc; only Wagner has more.

    Actually, Mirai has been exiled to Coc four times, an assignment which seems less popular. She has been to NHK three times, but the 2012 appearce was as a sub, when the US Fed only gave her one GP despite having a SB in the top 15. The NHK rescued her with a last minute assignment, after her own Fed left her hanging.

  12. #582
    Custom Title ks777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Well I see what you are saying but while I support Wagner making the team I almost sense her medal contending days are over, atleast for this year. Kim, Asada, Kostner, Sotnikova, Lipnitskaia, Gold, Suzuki, all seem above her right now, especialy as most of those seem to just be getting better as the season goes, while she is gradually getting worse (which is kind of her norm to be honest). Even last year when Kim, Asada, Kostner, and Suzuki will probably will all be retired it wont be easy with Sotnikova, Lipnitskaia, and Gold who all seem to be passing her by, and who I think most agree are all more naturally talented skaters, but also skaters like Osmond, Li, Tuktamysheva, Edmunds, and others who have huge potential if they can stay healthy, get the right coaching, and have the work ethic and determination to become champions that someone like Nagasu lacks.
    I agree but I hope Ashley, Gracie and Polina do well at the Olympics. It's kinda impossible for Ashley to feel less pressure now. She is going to be bombarded by the media at the Olympics.. Just like Midori Ito.. Ashley needs to get rid of her cell phone and computer until the Olympics is over.

  13. #583
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    The reason that this turn of events saddens me is this. I believe that these teams (Ladwig and Evora and Hinzman and Parchem) should have gone to the Olympics. They earned it.

    To change "they earned it" to "what gives the U.S. the best chance to get more medals" -- no, I do not agree that this is great for the future of figure skating in the U.S. The USFSA has a hundred thousand or so members, to most of whom the Olympics and world championships are utterly irrelevant. it is far, far better to run a clean, straight-up program than to sneak around obsessed by trying to get one-upsmanship on other countries.
    Mathman, my only issue with that is I don't think it was very clean. It seemed to me that the Judges did their very best to ensure that the "right team won". Now at the very least, they can feel more comfortable calling Nationals the way they see it. Besides I think it will be rare occasions when they do it.

  14. #584
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimini View Post
    Semi-related, does anyone have the criteria from pre-2006? I haven't been able to find anything but I figured it might be interesting to compare.
    I am relying on memory here, but I am pretty sure that previous descriptions of the selection process included a statement, way down at the bottom in the fine print, to the effect that, "the International committee reserves the right to make any decision that it feels is in the best interest of U.S. Figure Skating." Thus their behinds were covered no matter what they did.

  15. #585
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Those examples just prove all the more why what the USFSA is GREAT for the sport and for the future of U.S skating. Those people in the examples you listed should not have gone to the big event
    Your personal opinion that they shouldn't have gone is not a valid reason. Either body of work should dictate, or Nationals results should dictate. The reality is, there is no way to explain a rational and consistent basis for the USFSA's actions, although some have contorted themselves into pretzels trying. The capricious decisionmaking of USFSA is most definitely bad for athletes and the sport.

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