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Thread: Will Mirai Appeal Decision for Olympic Team?

  1. #586
    Figure Skating Fan Hikaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    Something just struck me and I'll throw it out there:

    Mirai was denied a spot in the Olympic and world teams because her record over the past two seasons hasn't been good, especially compared to Ashley's. But in denying her a spot for the world team, they are also hurting Mirai's chances of building up a good record for next season. It's Ashley who gets to go to world and then come to nationals again and say "See, I medaled at worlds, or came in 4th, or whatever." Mirai doesn't even get that chance.

    Does this seem like a dismal precedence to anyone else? This year, it's Mirai. Next year, maybe Christina Gao or Agnes or whoever might get on the podium instead of Gracie or Polina. And the committee can decide they don't like it so they'll just send who they want to worlds. And then Christina or Agnes get thwarted in their efforts to keep gaining momentum.

    I haven't been much of a fan of Mirai's skating the last couple of years, while I have really enjoyed Ashley. I'll admit that makes it a little easier to swallow this move, but the more I think about it then more I think "the rules" stink.
    In complete agreement with this post. Where will the USFSA draw the line when it comes to Mirai? If next year she were to place second at Nationals, would they deny her a spot in a world team because she hasn't been to Worlds in 4 years?? Does she have to become again a National champion so they allow her to go to Worlds?

  2. #587
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Mathman, my only issue with that is I don't think it was very clean. It seemed to me that the Judges did their very best to ensure that the "right team won". Now at the very least, they can feel more comfortable calling Nationals the way they see it...
    That would be a desirable trade off. I, for one, thought that Ashley was held up at 2013 Nationals. This time she wasn't. So, this is better.

  3. #588
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    You know, I've argued for years that USFS needs to consider more than just the Nationals results when naming the team in order to maximize USA's chances of a medal (or high placements) at Olympics/Worlds.

    I think sending Wagner over Nagasu does just that.

    HOWEVER - they need one or both of these things if they're going to do this:

    1) to have clear, objective selection criteria, e.g. weighted importance of competitions
    2) to be as clear/transparent about any decisions made using this system to the press.

    To me, USFS failed BIG TIME on #2 and that's a huge reason why this has gotten out of hand. (They also need much more work to get to #1.)

    If you give vague explanations such as "body of work", what's that supposed to mean? That could be interpreted so many ways. Already you've got folks saying NBC paid to have her on the team, her sponsors paid for it, etc. The most extreme of cases even suggests racism on part of USFS. And it doesn't make them look good.

  4. #589
    Custom Title ks777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That would be a desirable trade off. I, for one, thought that Ashley was held up at 2013 Nationals. This time she wasn't. So, this is better.
    Actually everyone thought Ashley was held up at 2013 nationals, Everyone.

  5. #590
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    You know, I've argued for years that USFS needs to consider more than just the Nationals results when naming the team in order to maximize USA's chances of a medal (or high placements) at Olympics/Worlds.

    I think sending Wagner over Nagasu does just that.

    HOWEVER - they need one or both of these things if they're going to do this:

    1) to have clear, objective selection criteria, e.g. weighted importance of competitions
    2) to be as clear/transparent about any decisions made using this system to the press.

    To me, USFS failed BIG TIME on #2 and that's a huge reason why this has gotten out of hand. (They also need much more work to get to #1.)
    Thanks RD for your articulate explanation on why I'm not fully on board with this decision. While the document outlines that other events are taken into consideration, it doesn't explain how those events are weighed. I've heard different opinions on how they do so, but clear answer.

    While I don't see all this as some sort of corrupt move, I do think USFS was definitely some what incompantant and naive in embarking on this new precedent.

  6. #591
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That would be a desirable trade off. I, for one, thought that Ashley was held up at 2013 Nationals. This time she wasn't. So, this is better.
    I mean you keep on talking about fairness, but I don't think its fair for things to be defined on one night. Lots can happen in one night you can get sick, have boot problems. Now yes, the Olympics will be determined on that-that's one competition. But in terms of picking a team-no.

    In terms of who is most likely to do well at the Olympics, I will point out that Jeremy was great at Nationals, and Evan a bit shaky, but Jeremy's the one who bombed. the Olympics. In fact in general the National champ, is the one who doesn't win. Do you want to peak at Nationals-or the Olympics.

    I'm fine with other criteria, as long as its very clear. I think Wagner has been very clearly better than Nagasu in the past two years. And comparing body of work, is actually quite fair between the two of them considering they've both been around the same time.

    Its not fair to Polina so much.

    I agree clear criteria, but I don't think its as stupid as the actual Plush going vs Kovtun.

    I disagree with the Daisuke selection because I think both he and Kozuka had only one good skate. I'd have them do a skate off (with Oda)

  7. #592
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That would be a desirable trade off. I, for one, thought that Ashley was held up at 2013 Nationals. This time she wasn't. So, this is better.
    She still was. How was that performance only 1 point less than Samantha's?

  8. #593
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    Something just struck me and I'll throw it out there:

    Mirai was denied a spot in the Olympic and world teams because her record over the past two seasons hasn't been good, especially compared to Ashley's. But in denying her a spot for the world team, they are also hurting Mirai's chances of building up a good record for next season. It's Ashley who gets to go to world and then come to nationals again and say "See, I medaled at worlds, or came in 4th, or whatever." Mirai doesn't even get that chance.

    Does this seem like a dismal precedence to anyone else? This year, it's Mirai. Next year, maybe Christina Gao or Agnes or whoever might get on the podium instead of Gracie or Polina. And the committee can decide they don't like it so they'll just send who they want to worlds. And then Christina or Agnes get thwarted in their efforts to keep gaining momentum.

    I haven't been much of a fan of Mirai's skating the last couple of years, while I have really enjoyed Ashley. I'll admit that makes it a little easier to swallow this move, but the more I think about it then more I think "the rules" stink.
    Your logic makes sense to me, Layfan. There are always ramifications to new rules which may not be forseen initially, but which may become painfully evident down the road. The three selectees get the gold ring, Sochi and Worlds, this year, which gives them a possible advantage over the rest of the field for next year.

  9. #594
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-man View Post
    Your logic makes sense to me, Layfan. There are always ramifications to new rules which may not be forseen initially, but which may become painfully evident down the road. The three selectees get the gold ring, Sochi and Worlds, this year, which gives them a possible advantage over the rest of the field for next year.
    That has always been one of the arguments against including such things as Grand Prix events in the selection criteria. Only certain pre-selected skaters get to participate in the Grand Prix in the first place. Nationals is the only competition where it's come one, come all, with (in principle) no pre-selected favorites.

  10. #595
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That has always been one of the arguments against including such things as Grand Prix events in the selection criteria. Only certain pre-selected skaters get to participate in the Grand Prix in the first place. Nationals is the only competition where it's come one, come all, with (in principle) no pre-selected favorites.
    Of course, which is why the body of work argument isn't fair to Polina. But guess what works perfectly for Mirai vs Ashley.

  11. #596
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikaru View Post
    In complete agreement with this post. Where will the USFSA draw the line when it comes to Mirai? If next year she were to place second at Nationals, would they deny her a spot in a world team because she hasn't been to Worlds in 4 years?? Does she have to become again a National champion so they allow her to go to Worlds?
    That would be an interesting pickle. Let's say Ashley does well at worlds/Olympics. Let's say she even medals. And then let's say she again comes in a distant fourth behind Mirai at nationals 2015. Then, will they say, Ashley gets to worlds because she did well at worlds while Mirai didn't even make worlds? hmmm.

  12. #597
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    You know, I've argued for years that USFS needs to consider more than just the Nationals results when naming the team in order to maximize USA's chances of a medal (or high placements) at Olympics/Worlds.

    If you give vague explanations such as "body of work", what's that supposed to mean? That could be interpreted so many ways. Already you've got folks saying NBC paid to have her on the team, her sponsors paid for it, etc. The most extreme of cases even suggests racism on part of USFS. And it doesn't make them look good.
    I also think it would be better to have more than Nationals results count, but it would be difficult if not impossible to come up with a system that will satisfy all interests. You had 21 entrants at Nationals. Some had Junior experience. Some competed at sectionals, regionals only. Some had senior B's but no GP's. Some had one GP, some Had two, and Ashley alone had the GP final. Which of those levels of competition do you include, and how do you weigh them? If you give weight to senior GP's only, the people with less experience will be out of the running at Nationals before it starts, which will diminish Nationals as an event. Is it an acceptable tradeoff to eliminate a big part of the field before the event starts? You could say that a win at a GP is worth twice a senior B, or 3 times a sectional, but that would just lead to more arguments without end. Is everyone comfortable with USFS just making decisions behind closed doors with no accountability. I know I am not.

    RE: sponsors. I think P&G is both a sponsor of Nationals (Puffs), and a corporate sponsor of Wagner and Gold through some cosmetic brands. If Wagner didn't make the Olympic team, after P&G spent money promoting her, would that threaten P&G's sponsorship of Nationals? Does that possible threat influence USFSA's decisions regarding selecting Wagner and bumping Nagasu? USFSA certainly does not want to alienate its sponsors, which are hard to come by in these economic times. I think NBC has used Ashley a lot in their promotions. Can the US Fed afford to alienate NBC by keeping her off the Olympic team, when it is so hard to get TV coverage? Ideally, the US Fed should not allow companies to sponsor both the Fed and individual athletes, as its a clear conflict of interest.

  13. #598
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    So sorry for Mirai.
    But I just love how this sad affair shows the hypocrisy of some people here.

    Takahashi versus Kozuka:
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Absolutely not a fair decision. It wasn't even close at Nationals (and should have been way more than a 12 point differential). I mean, Takahashi made 3 errors and fell in his SP and 4 errors and fell in his LP, and that qualifies him for the Olympic team?
    Wagner versus Nagasu:
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Anyone comparing the two would say sending Ashley is a no-brainer. Sending Mirai would only be a matter of "fairness" if the rules were that the US top 3 go, no questions asked.
    So "absolutely not a fair decision" becomes "a matter of "fairness""

  14. #599
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-man View Post
    Ideally, the US Fed should not allow companies to sponsor both the Fed and individual athletes, as its a clear conflict of interest.
    Hmm, never thought about it from that angle...

  15. #600
    Custom Title ks777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by itoja View Post
    so sorry for mirai.
    But i just love how this sad affair shows the hypocrisy of some people here.

    Takahashi versus kozuka:


    Wagner versus nagasu:


    So "absolutely not a fair decision" becomes "a matter of "fairness""
    lol

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