01-23-2014, 05:24 AM
@yukl90 Ok, I see what you mean, right. Yet the phrase is so much taken off from the context : she starts by humbly saying "Who am I to analyse those great skaters?" .
Then she is pushed by the journalist (who is olimpic champion by the way, not easy to refute the question) to the real analysis. She praises highly all people she talks about
- Yuna, Carolina, Mao, Suzuki, - and adds on a portion of criticism on each, may be 25% of every opinion. She also says she made her conclusions also by looking Mao's
traces on the ice(!). Is n't it humble enough, trying to learn from traces of great skaters? The cited phrase here, taken alone, looks like she was contesting some competition results,
which is of course not the case. Thanks for pointing.
No need for google translate
Last edited by malif; 01-23-2014 at 05:31 AM.
01-23-2014, 05:32 AM
Size 7 Knifeboots
I used a different translator from google and it seemed unclear. Thank you malif for the clarification. I was kinda laughing at the thought of her, like some kind of international spy, crawling on the ice to see Mao's marks. I actually posted earlier that I would be very interested in seeing Julia's marks on the ice after her bizarre 2a at euros. I've taken many trips out onto the ice at the rink myself. These "tracks" can be quite revealing indeed!
You are correct that she had mostly praise for all and especially Costner and YuNa by my account.
01-23-2014, 06:23 AM
Good point. In fact, Yulia is sort of "unexpected child" for the Russian federation. They had put all their stakes on Adelina (supported by Moscow lobby) and Liza (supported by Petersburg lobby), and they thought they need not anyone more.
Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch
If Liza would not fail so consistently, then Yulia would have really big troubles for getting olimpic place. This said, Eteri's school which comprises not only Yulia but also Voronov whom she revived from ruines upto the silver medal of EC and
a bunch of JGPF-level boys and girls, has sufficient financial support from federation to operate. There is much less sincere moral support though. They would never praise Yulia alone, only "Adelina and Yulia".
01-23-2014, 08:26 AM
In my opinion watching both Julia and Adelina alive have to say that.
They are both VERY good skaters.
Adelina has some bravura talent, but I always feel that she is WORKING collecting points with a hard work (ala Slutskaya).
Julia is SKATING, with poesy and soul included also with several "bravura" factor, less attractive jumps but more consistency.
That is a HUGE difference in my book.
I had no prejudice about them at all, but I had goose-bumps and gave standing ovation only to Julia in Budapest.
01-23-2014, 11:45 AM
yuki90's comments in regard of coach Eteri Tutberidze's views are pretty accurate. No need for google translate. Here is an excellent translation by quiqie, a poster on FSU, who, I understand, is fluent in the language.
(The link was provided in another thread a while ago, but I guess no one bothered to actually read it ).
I think Julia's coach must also be a Yuna uber, because she offers only glowing praise about her :
"I like many things about Yuna Kim. The way she jumps, starting the first jump in combination at the blue line and ending near the board. She has amazing transitions. She is very beautiful, with great, I would say, sense of posture. Knows exactly how to do this or that gesture, how to look. For me, she is undoubtedly number one now. No other athlete, in my opinion, is in the same league as an all-around champion."
Over the past couple of weeks, I have read with varying degrees of amusement, but sometimes irritation, all sorts of pronouncements by a variety of posters about Yuna, or perhaps about Yuna by way of comparison to some other skater. In my view, some of these statements are by turns outlandish, fantastic (and I do not mean this in a good way), feverish, overwrought, or frenzied.
Among such opinions: that many have comparable or better jumps, including Gracie, or Adelina, or even Julia; or that Yuna has no artistry, and no transitions; that she has become slow (!!!!! ); that she has no projection, charisma, and "does not pull me in"; that, despite an established track record of pummeling the field into submission at the most important events in any cycle (i.e. the pre-Oly Worlds, and the Olys themselves), that this demonstrated mental toughness ought to be disregarded in favor of some lazy bromide such as "ice is slippery". I think that covers most of it, but please feel free to point out any glaring omissions.
Tutberidze's comments show that experienced and professional eyes don't recognize this patchwork caricature of a Yuna that somehow gets built up in skating forums, particularly in an Olympic season. Her comments basically run counter to every single one of the "skating fan criticisms" listed above.
Here is another interesting quote, from Elena Ilinykh:
(Asked via formspring about women's figure skating and if she had a favorite)
"Of course I have. Yuna Kim - she is the best! Just like a cat. Really like to watch how she skates, so much energy and emotions that it takes your breath away." http://yunaforum.com/wiki/young_skaters#russia
Now, I put it to you: it's not as if Elena loves Yuna so much because they both happen to share traits of consistency and technical perfection (). No, what Elena is best at, and therefore, one presumes, can recognize when she sees it, is the quality of "energy and emotions that it takes your breath away." I defy the haterz to find a similar example of an ice dancer who raves in such full-throttled fashion about such quintessential Ice Dance qualities in a singles skater.
OK, I feel that I've gotten it all off my chest now.
01-23-2014, 02:27 PM
Heh.. Robeye, re: Elena Ilinykh, don't forget the screen grab, I still have it in storage somewhere.
OKAY, I swear I did not write the circle/box aftereffects, but i did think it was hilarious enough to kept a copy as internet meme goes.
Anyway to answer the subject title. I love Julia, ever since the beginning when she was still were Juniors doing her KungFu Panda, and then her Ninja Assassin routine last year with all those killer bendy moves. I adore her competitive streak, non nonsense, honest approach. I think she is one amazing 15 years old tough cookie who's likely to be a front runner next quad assume she survives puberty. She has the best 15 years old FS program this season that fit her like a glove, I have even said it might be up for a medal at Sochi if the veterans mess up based on liking her FS (Her SP is still Juniorish though). HOWEVER (Capital letters in BOLD) there is such massive differences between execute an element e.g a jump with no UR vs a jump that withstood years of refinement and improvement and actually were better than several years ago and several years in a row. As pure sporting performance goes, it should never be just about able to satisfy all the tick boxes, vs actually deliver them with greater quality, clarity, maturity, intelligence, and artistry that the veterans can bring on a pure performance level. Will Julia able to perform any of the top ladies program today with the same finesse and maturity? Vs Them at Julia's age 15 years and do a good or better job on the same program? COP was created to remove the subjective aspect of the sport, and tries to re-emphasis on performance, maturity and refinement and most of all QUALITY aspect of the sport, for me personally Julia still has a few years to go to reach the veteran ladies in terms of pure 'Software' (several upgraded versions and patches) aspect of the sport, although she appears to have decent 'Hardware' (Still to be upgraded with age, currently at Julia 1.01). To reach the peak imo, you need to work to demonstrate perfecting balance of both so to able deliver all aspect of your sport as appropriate BEFORE justifying these type of PCS. It should never be about tick all the boxes on an elementary level then bank on your nationality. IMO the sport shouldn't be won because of rules, of age, because of luck, because of money or because of politics.
It will be interesting to pose the question that if she skate for Philippines, will we be still be having the same discussion today? Will her PCS be increased so drastically in her Senior DEBUT season that some of the veterans took years of CONSISTENT hard work and PROVEN results to earn them naturally vs artificially? I highly doubt it, so bring back the whole reason and the scandal COP were conceived to remove/minimize subjectivity from all that political wrangling business. If Julia skate for Philippines today, will we still be having the same discussion? If not, then why are we?
01-23-2014, 03:31 PM
Yes, theoretically we would still be having the same conversation if Julia was a Filipino skater who was just as talented. However, Julia is not that skater. If she was someone born in the Philippines she would no longer be Julia. Second whose to say she would have gone into gymnastics and then skating. Whose to say whether she would have wanted to do either sport or would have even had the opportunity. After having done both gymnastics and skating she decided to focus on skating. Then, before her breakout junior year (2011-2012) she briefly considered leaving the sport. Julia and her mother made the choice to move over a thousand miles to train in Moscow (listen to the NBC youtube video of her SC FS and the video of her junior worlds to confirm what I am saying) with her current coach who did not want to take her on at first. After she did though Julia started landing all of her triple jumps. If you could somehow say that Julia would still be the type of person she is fully comitted to her goals with the pure talent to match but born in the Philippines, then yes.
Originally Posted by os168
In all her competitions thus far TES has been what's allowed her to achieve so much. Having said that, I find that her rising PCS scores are well deserved. Every competition her performance keeps getting better and for the last three years she has been the only LADIES skater that I have actually been able to watch since 2006. I love skating but since Sasha Cohen stopped competing I have not been able to really appeciate any of the ladies, despite the fact that they are all extremely good and deserve the sucess they have had. She has that something about her that I can't stop watching. In her programs from 2009, 10, 11, and 12 I thought she was unbelievable and one of the best, looking back now after having seen her current season's programs, I see she had rough edges but she has started to smooth them out. This whole season she just keeps getting better and better. I can't wait to see what she achieve next.
01-23-2014, 03:53 PM
She does not deserve 68 PCS. Yuna's 2009 Worlds LP had 68 PCS. Mao's Vancouver and 2010 Worlds LP performances had 67 and 62 PCS. Mao and Yuna at age 16 were better performers and skaters than today's Julia, and their best LPs usually got a measly 60 PCS.
Originally Posted by Isabel_O'Reilly
01-23-2014, 03:53 PM
Oh wouldn't that be marvelous if it is true! A Julia of Phillippines can be on equal terms with her twin Julia of Russia at Sochi!
Originally Posted by Isabel_O'Reilly
My points is about the subjective aspect of the sport in her PCS, while she has improved, are the improvement in natural proportion to how a skater are usually marked or it seems artificially inflated? Adelina increase her PCS by almost 14% from last world, Julia almost 11% from her season debut. I don't know... i guess I am just a bit cynical, one is an inconsistent 1 year old senior held up as Russia's #1, the other is a total newbie to the senior rankings, both are is pulling major upset over the likes of Kostner at Europeans, with some of their PCS like interpretation in 10s and 9s. Pffft.... Go figure! I am asking how much politicks still matter in this sport? Should it? Assume we are in PyeongChang 2018, should we start to repress the veterans and their competitor's marks, while pull up all the Korean newbies PCS - assume they improve steadily, manage not to fall, gaining greater confidence due to improving judges awards, federation support and world class programs that complement their skating while manage to hide their flaws?
01-23-2014, 03:59 PM
If I understand your point, you are saying that the Philippines don't have the political pull of Russia and so Julia's PCS would not have increased so much. To give a similar, real-life example, Yu Na Kim is from Korea, a country with no history at all in figure skating. But that didn't hurt her when she arrived at the senior level. She was still viewed, and scored, as one of the best skaters in the world. Her PCS has gone up since 2009, but that is because PCS has inflated generally for all of the top skaters over time and also, because of her reputation as World and Olympic champion.
Originally Posted by os168
01-23-2014, 04:01 PM
PCS in general has gone up over this quad. Julia and Adelina's Euros PCS are definitely too high even by today's standards, but they still deserved to beat Kostner and it wasn't a major upset, considering Kostner has been in a funk all season and her TES was behind theirs by 10 (Sot) and nearly 20 (Lip) points.
Originally Posted by os168
I was under the impression that in 2018 the Korean federation would still be trying (key word trying) to convince Yuna to come back while still not giving two hoots about their promising Korean newbies.
Originally Posted by os168
01-23-2014, 04:02 PM
There has been PCS inflation since the early days of COP. No one got 9's and 10's like some do now.
Originally Posted by CarneAsada
01-23-2014, 04:47 PM
I was under the impression it took her many years of consistent delivering and proven results through improving TES and Artistic performances and a couple of world records to justify her PCS. She debut around 2006/07? 2009 was her 3rd worlds. In this quad, I have rarely seen PCS given out like candy like this year for the Russians (except Miki in 2011 and Hanyu last year.) We are only 2/3rd way through the season. Her wins doesn't require suppressing veteran's PCS either. Look, I am all for exciting talent out gunning for a title, but it has to be done fairly, of consistent standard, so it can stand up to scrutiny. I'd hate a repeat of 2002.
Originally Posted by jenaj
Re CarneASada: 2018, lol no way, Kim is retiring for sure.
And by the way, my theory of these inflated PCS over time is precisely because all these federation funny games, to boost their own skater at home events for maximum momentum/benchmark, so eventually it became a musical chair exercise, everyone gets their turn trying to topple each other like a domino effect. It is one of the first thing I noticed about this COP system and complained about its refusal to have a transparent process to
1) Re-calibrate any inconsistency between competitions between different judging panels.
2) A secondary checking and verification process to minimize human error, due to variable factors that can distort human judging, eg reputation, emotional factor, crowd reception (home advantage), cognitive latency effect etc.. It removes things like early skating order get under marked, while the final flight get inflated. Or that they made a mess on scoring a skater, and trying to spend the rest of competition fixing it, everyone before that skater get unfair treatment.
3) Accurate judging aid, to measure things like speed, height, distance, coverage, velocity etc. If they say Adelina's jump is better than Julia's I want to know precisely why, by how much in distance, height, speed in and out, velocity etc, not just one has soso better transition than the other, or that jump is good for her build even is smaller than the other one etc, rather than take for granted of general hearsay as a fact. So if one day Julia's jump became bigger and better than Adelina, I'd like the judges to enough data to support or defy their believes before make their mark.
With all these uncertainties, there are sufficient variables to manipulate and exploit the system, momentum, home boosting especially under anonymous judging.
01-23-2014, 05:00 PM
Yu Na has never been off of the podium. She was a star even as a junior. There is PCS inflation. Yu Na gets it, too.
Originally Posted by os168
01-23-2014, 06:24 PM
200% agree with you.
Originally Posted by Robeye