I feel a bit sorry for Ashley Wagner...

leafygreens · Jan 25, 2014

Icey said:
Her dream is coming s true even though not under the best of circumstances, so why feel sorry for her. Every athlete has bad days. Hers just occurred at an unfortunate time.

Figure skating is full of athletes who had "bad days" at unfortunate times. The history of US Figure Skating is that those who have a bad day at nationals don't get bumped over someone who performed better. Why now? Why does Ashley's dream get to come true and not other athletes' who have had bad days?

leafygreens · Jan 25, 2014

caseyl23 said:
We die-hard fans might know about the new criteria, but those once every four years fans aren't going to say, "Oh, okay." They're going to shake their heads, sigh and say, "Not again!" We might have a good read on what's happening, but those fans don't. They see USFSA doing something they haven't done before, and they put it together with the history of what they've seen before, and to them, it's just another reason not to take this sport seriously.

caseyl23 said:
I heard it, too, but I think there's a big difference between saying it could happen, and actually educating the viewers about what exactly might occur and why. If you say something could happen, I'm sure a lot of casual fans thought something along the lines of "Yeah right – it's never happened before – why would it now?" If they had said, "Last year, before the start of the season, USFSA released its criteria for the Olympic team, these events are being taken into consideration, and Ashley Wagner has by far the best body of work of the contenders for the team. She's done a and b and c, so she will probably be taken even if she has an off night. Mirai has done d and e, so she'll have a much harder time," that's a whole different message – it's something concrete that people can grasp and understand.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again – the USFSA could have done a lot to make this situation better for themselves. We should have been hearing/reading about the Olympic selection criteria the entire week of Nationals until we wanted to throw something at our TVs/computers, especially since this was the first year for it. They also could (should in my opinion) have introduced it at the start of the cycle and used it the first chance they got, so people could get used to the idea coming into the Olympic year. Then, once they did use it, rather than being transparent, all casual fans probably heard was the statement on NBC during the exhibitions (I think that's where I heard it.) that the selection criteria was applied correctly. Well, what exactly does that mean? It's just another chance for those fans to say, "Yeah, right – back to the NFL." Frankly, if I were in charge of the USFSA, I'd fire whoever's advising them on their PR approach, because the whole situation's been badly mishandled in my opinion.

Casey gets it. Not sure why everybody else can't.

louisa05 · Jan 25, 2014

caseyl23 said:
I remember more than one poster, when the criteria was first announced, seemed to think USFSA was announcing this, but they didn't intend to use it. Some people seemed to think this was USFSA's way of keeping Nationals from falling into control of the USOC, which was a possibility if Nationals were often seen as the only basis for selecting international teams.

As for NBC, as I wrote in my reply to Tonichelle, I almost would have rather they said (or USFSA announced) Ashley was safe on the team before the competition. From a sport that has a perception problem with fairness and transparency, it would have been an honest, refreshing change to those casual fans. Instead, in their minds, well – what do you expect? It's figure skating, and as someone who (believe it or not!) loves this sport, that's so frustrating to me, especially when the solution seems so simple.

She wasn't. The criteria Mathman quoted also says that the committee may consider only the top five finishers at Nationals. She had to place fifth or higher to have her previous results considered.

Tonichelle · Jan 25, 2014

ForeverFish said:
I distinctly recall the NBC announcers explaining the criteria as a list of the relevant events flashed up on the TV screen. Unfortunately, I can't remember when in the competition it happened.

I don't recall bullet points, but I do remember Scott quoting chapter and verse and then the rule. It was pretty obvious and they were discussing what would "happen next" for Ashley... I don't recall if it was before or after her skate that night (I assumed it was after, but it could've been during the warm ups, too... I have no freaking clue because it shouldn't be a huge deal. NBC did MORE THAN ENOUGH to give the audience the info they needed)

No other sport (be it large or niche) has its fans requiring the commentators to hold their hand to "get them through it" and there are a lot of sports that I don't have a clue as how they're played... but I don't sit there and blame the commentary team for it. :sarcasm:

R.D. · Jan 25, 2014

leafygreens said:
Figure skating is full of athletes who had "bad days" at unfortunate times. The history of US Figure Skating is that those who have a bad day at nationals don't get bumped over someone who performed better. Why now? Why does Ashley's dream get to come true and not other athletes' who have had bad days?

That may be changing, however. And frankly it's about time it did (with the exception of ice dance, US skaters have been struggling)...but you're right in a way, the decision-making needs to be consistent within each year.

Tonichelle · Jan 25, 2014

R.D. said:
That may be changing, however. And frankly it's about time it did (with the exception of ice dance, US skaters have been struggling)...but you're right in a way, the decision-making needs to be consistent within each year.

exactly... the rule changed two years ago... now that the skaters have had time to get that through their heads they're implementing it. If a skater assumed it wouldn't happen because it has never happened before, that's not the USFSA's fault. They can't govern what an athlete *thinks* will happen.

ice coverage · Jan 25, 2014

leafygreens said:
Casey gets it. Not sure why everybody else can't.

Because others among us have given strong reasons why your arguments are not convincing to us. Earlier in the thread, I asked you a question on Thursday that you have not answered, and I asked caseyl23 a question that s/he has not answered although s/he subsequently has added four posts to thread. I will try asking my questions again and will highlight them below.

caseyl23 said:
... I've said it before, and I'll say it again – the USFSA could have done a lot to make this situation better for themselves. We should have been hearing/reading about the Olympic selection criteria the entire week of Nationals until we wanted to throw something at our TVs/computers, especially since this was the first year for it. They also could (should in my opinion) have introduced it at the start of the cycle and used it the first chance they got, so people could get used to the idea coming into the Olympic year. Then, once they did use it, rather than being transparent, all casual fans probably heard was the statement on NBC during the exhibitions (I think that's where I heard it.) that the selection criteria was applied correctly. Well, what exactly does that mean? It's just another chance for those fans to say, "Yeah, right – back to the NFL." Frankly, if I were in charge of the USFSA, I'd fire whoever's advising them on their PR approach, because the whole situation's been badly mishandled in my opinion.

golden411 said:
caseyl23:
How do you explain the low level of interest in November in at least one GS thread that pertained to the USFS selection criteria?
If GS members truly were thirsty back then for information and discussion regarding the topic -- and had strong feelings one way or the other about the content of the criteria -- I don't understand why they were not posting comments at that time.
Seems that "Yeah, right – back to the NFL" is the reaction most GS members had when they had the chance to discuss the criteria in detail much earlier in the season.

leafygreens said:
... How would the average media personnel know where to find the criteria? The criteria is not even linked in their press release announcing the Olympic team. It's hard enough for a die hard skating fan to find anything on their website. At this point in time (when the USFSA is under the most scrutiny) they should have a big ol' neon link to it on their home page, but there's nothing. To expect anyone to know it is there and where to find it is disingenuous.

golden411 said:
Can you give me one example of a member of the skating media who has complained that s/he did not have access to the criteria before Boston Nats?

Again, some fans DID see the link well before Boston Nats. If fans could see it, media could and should have been able to see it. End of story.

~~~~~

burntBREAD said:
I think it's also because there hasn't really been a situation before when one of the favorites/leading ladies placed off the podium -- so before, from what I recall, commentators often just lumped podium with Worlds/Olympics spots, and never really had to discuss other options.

:agree: Thanks, burntBREAD. As I have said before, those who continue to gripe are doing so with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

GS members are a self-selected group with an active interest in figure skating, and even they paid little attention to the criteria in November.

ETA:

Tonichelle said:
No other sport (be it large or niche) has its fans requiring the commentators to hold their hand to "get them through it" and there are a lot of sports that I don't have a clue as how they're played... but I don't sit there and blame the commentary team for it. :sarcasm:

:agree: Strongly agree. Thanks, Toni.
I am clueless about other sports that nonetheless do appeal to me, and I don't blame anyone but myself for my own cluelessness. Just because I am clueless does not mean that the governing body and/or the media is/are responsible.

RABID · Jan 25, 2014

Tonichelle said:
I don't recall bullet points, but I do remember Scott quoting chapter and verse and then the rule. It was pretty obvious and they were discussing what would "happen next" for Ashley... I don't recall if it was before or after her skate that night (I assumed it was after, but it could've been during the warm ups, too... I have no freaking clue because it shouldn't be a huge deal. NBC did MORE THAN ENOUGH to give the audience the info they needed)

No other sport (be it large or niche) has its fans requiring the commentators to hold their hand to "get them through it" and there are a lot of sports that I don't have a clue as how they're played... but I don't sit there and blame the commentary team for it. :sarcasm:

That maybe true but the health of figure skating isn't helped by the stodgy and arbitrary perceptions people both in and out of the skating world have of ruling bodies such as the USFS. This is just one more tick against THEM as custodians for the health and growth of figure skating; these dinosaurs need to go and/or some reformation is needed.

ice coverage · Jan 25, 2014

RABID said:
That maybe true but the health of figure skating isn't helped by the stodgy and arbitrary perceptions people both in and out of the skating world have of ruling bodies such as the USFS. This is just one more tick against THEM as custodians for the health and growth of figure skating; these dinosaurs need to go and/or some reformation is needed.

The perception that so many figure skating fans have been "whiners" (without justification, IMO) in this situation is what I find unhelpful to the health of the sport.

R.D. · Jan 25, 2014

golden411 said:
The perception that so many figure skating fans have been "whiners" (without justification, IMO) in this situation is what I find unhelpful to the health of the sport.

Umm...but isn't that SPORTS fans in general we're talking about here? :rofl:

How many NFL or NBA fans whine when the ref makes a call they don't like? Or cry that the game was fixed or the playoffs are fixed? Don't get me started there :laugh:

louisa05 · Jan 25, 2014

RABID said:
That maybe true but the health of figure skating isn't helped by the stodgy and arbitrary perceptions people both in and out of the skating world have of ruling bodies such as the USFS. This is just one more tick against THEM as custodians for the health and growth of figure skating; these dinosaurs need to go and/or some reformation is needed.

Honestly, the once every four years fans I know have no idea what the USFSA is. We are assuming that they have a lot of knowledge that they don't. And, as I have previously said, many of the Olympics-only fan are basing their opinion on the fact that they have a recollection of Mirai from Vancouver and have never heard of Ashley and assume that the status quo in the sport has remained exactly the same for four years.

I totally agree with Tonichelle, again. It is not the job of commentators to provide detailed explanations to the audience of every single rule. Tell me when you've watched a football game and heard a commentator read the rules about a penalty after the call. The answer will be never. Scott, in particular, made it clear throughout the telecasts that placements alone would not determine the Olympic team. He even stated it clearly during the telecast of the pairs free when Bartholamay and Zhang placed second.

concorde · Jan 25, 2014

The one benefit of this whole situation is that people outside of the ice skating community are again talking about the sport.

This "kinda" happened before with the Tonya/Nancy incident. Michelle Kwan finished 2nd at Nationals but was "bumped" for Nancy Kerrigan.

RABID · Jan 25, 2014

louisa05 said:
Honestly, the once every four years fans I know have no idea what the USFSA is. We are assuming that they have a lot of knowledge that they don't. And, as I have previously said, many of the Olympics-only fan are basing their opinion on the fact that they have a recollection of Mirai from Vancouver and have never heard of Ashley and assume that the status quo in the sport has remained exactly the same for four years.

I totally agree with Tonichelle, again. It is not the job of commentators to provide detailed explanations to the audience of every single rule. Tell me when you've watched a football game and heard a commentator read the rules about a penalty after the call. The answer will be never. Scott, in particular, made it clear throughout the telecasts that placements alone would not determine the Olympic team. He even stated it clearly during the telecast of the pairs free when Bartholamay and Zhang placed second.

My point was figure skating doesn't have the luxury of taking its audiences for granted, be they long standing or "once every 4 years" fans. If anything about this controversy has been made clear it is that the USFS wasted a golden and rare opportunity to get people excited about figure skating.... again. There is an apparent blindness and aloofness to them that they can ill afford.

ice coverage · Jan 25, 2014

R.D. said:
Umm...but isn't that SPORTS fans in general we're talking about here? How many NFL or NBA fans whine when the ref makes a call they don't like? Or cry that the game was fixed or the playoffs are fixed? Don't get me started there

louisa05 said:
... I totally agree with Tonichelle, again. It is not the job of commentators to provide detailed explanations to the audience of every single rule. Tell me when you've watched a football game and heard a commentator read the rules about a penalty after the call. The answer will be never. Scott, in particular, made it clear throughout the telecasts that placements alone would not determine the Olympic team. He even stated it clearly during the telecast of the pairs free when Bartholamay and Zhang placed second.

I agree with louisa05.

NFL/NBA/MLB fans might whine about outcomes on the field of play that they don't like ... but do they whine about not being spoon-fed the rules? I don't think so.

In my limited experience, the opposite is true. Don't football/basketball/baseball fans pride themselves on being walking encyclopedias with exhaustive knowledge of the minutiae of every rule?

concorde · Jan 25, 2014

Years ago when I was a "once every 4 years" fan, I remember the TV commentators saying that the US National Championships is NOT the same as Olympic trails. If USFS were to go the "Olympic trials" route, then they would be obligated to send the top # finishers. But since USFS uses the Nationals a selection "tool," they are not obligated to take the top finishers. At the time I heard that, I did not understand what the commentators meant. Now my daughter skates and I now understand what it really means.

Also, figure skating nuisances are not as obvious as NFL//NBA/MLB. Ice skating is much more subjective and the technical differences are only obvious to a very select few. I can tell whether a program is pleasing to watch but I cannot tell the difference between a lutz, flip, and flutz.

R.D. · Jan 25, 2014

concorde said:
Years ago when I was a "once every 4 years" fan, I remember the TV commentators saying that the US National Championships is NOT the same as Olympic trails. If USFS were to go the "Olympic trials" route, then they would be obligated to send the top # finishers. But since USFS uses the Nationals a selection "tool," they are not obligated to take the top finishers. At the time I heard that, I did not understand what the commentators meant. Now my daughter skates and I now understand what it really means.

Also, figure skating nuisances are not as obvious as NFL//NBA/MLB. Ice skating is much more subjective and the technical differences are only obvious to a very select few. I can tell whether a program is pleasing to watch but I cannot tell the difference between a lutz, flip, and flutz.

Same here. After 12 yrs, about as far as I've gotten is an axel (obvious), edge jump and toe jump.

Mathman · Jan 25, 2014

Autocorrect strikes again. You meant "nuances," right?

Tonichelle · Jan 25, 2014

RABID said:
That maybe true but the health of figure skating isn't helped by the stodgy and arbitrary perceptions people both in and out of the skating world have of ruling bodies such as the USFS. This is just one more tick against THEM as custodians for the health and growth of figure skating; these dinosaurs need to go and/or some reformation is needed.

NBC (and Scott, Sandy, and crew) are not the USFSA. I am not talking about what the USFSA should or shouldn't do in promoting the sport. NBC is not *promoting* the sport. They're broadcasting it because they want ratings. They know their audience is going to be smaller than that of a football game... yet they commentate both sports the same. With the understanding that those interested in watching do not need them to hold their hand and explain every little detail and rule (or for that matter the big ones). They merely point out what's happening right in front of you.

Also, figure skating nuisances are not as obvious as NFL//NBA/MLB. Ice skating is much more subjective and the technical differences are only obvious to a very select few. I can tell whether a program is pleasing to watch but I cannot tell the difference between a lutz, flip, and flutz.

I can't speak about NBA or MLB, but in the case of the NFL there are so many *subjective* calls made by refs that it's very easy for someone who does not follow the sport to be utterly confused as to what just happened (and the commentators are just as confused as those of us who do know what we're watching)... I know several "football moms" who can't figure it out any more than the 4 year fans supposedly can't figure out why Mirai was not named to the team.

Layfan · Jan 25, 2014

Actually, I think in the case of the commenters like Scott and Sandy, they probably are trying to find a balance of actually trying to enlighten audiences on the nuances of the sport when it's needed (that's their job) and not bore people to tears with the minutia. I imagine that's become more difficult with the new scoring system. Levels, GOEs, marks for performance, SS, choreo, yikes. If they said, oh, so-and-so has been unable to get level 4s in their last footwork season, most Olympic viewers would have no clue what was going on. Course, they COULD say, that footwork sequence has more turns, change of direction, one-footed skating than so-and-sos. They do that sometimes but I wish they would do it more.

It's not so much a matter of not needing to hold people's hands but a matter of how you cram info in without being too detailed and boring.

RABID · Jan 25, 2014

OT I have noticed all these little highlighted words with hidden little blurbs of advertisement on GS all of a sudden. Is this to offset operating cost or is GS hoping to take advantage of swelling readership now that the Olympics is just around the corner? I'm not the only one, am I?

I feel a bit sorry for Ashley Wagner...

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