What will happen in Ice Dancing this year?

Matt K said:

Dick Button is American (NOT an ice dancer) so his remarks don't surprise me. He praises American ice dancers to the skies (he loved B/A back in 2006 over pretty much everyone despite all their mistakes and weaknesses). In fact here is Dick Button's remarks FOUR years earlier, after D/W's 2010 Nationals FD, comparing their POTO to T/D's 1984 Bolero:
http://popwatch.ew.com/2010/01/25/meryl-davis-charlie-white-us-champs/

Dick Button, who’d already amused/confused me with a “magical soufflé” metaphor he used earlier in the weekend, referred to Davis & White’s free skate to music from The Phantom of the Opera as “one of the iconic performances of all time…. I mean it ranked right up there with the great performances of Torvill and Dean in ’84 and with Salé and Pelletier in 2002.”

So D/W's Nationals POTO FD in 2010 = T/D legendary Olympic Bolero. Um...okay. SERIOUSLY??!! *hand me a barfbag quick*

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I have worked with Dick Button during my 10 years working on televised international figure skating events, and although he is not an ice dancer, he is a two-time Olympic gold medalist and knows a thing or two about good skating skills and “edges” since he has also trained and won compulsory figures events. His credentials give his opinion value whether you agree with it or not. How many international figure skating competitions have you even seen live? Including US Nationals and 6 OWGs, my total is 96.

^ Thank you.

American teams go into direction I would not be expecting. Besides Davis & White, there are three other teams who are trying to shine – Chock & Bates, Shibutani’s, Hubell & Donohue. While a behaviour and preferences of US Federation are very well seen – they push Chock & Bates to become next Davis & White too hard and it is very obvious. Matt K noticed those “jumping“ programs of D&W, I already mentioned it in other topic. And Chock & Bates are another team who has “small jumping“ parts so many times, so skating with jumps will continue even after D&W retire. Chock & Bates are another couple who is skating, not dancing. Especially their free program is another sort of misunderstanding…Les Miserables, the couple tries to portray love story with many gestures towards each other (but we don’t know what characters are they) but with a little emotions between the couple on the ice, some dynamic moves but without any sense, and the music plays One Day More which is a song at the end of movie and every character sing there (Valjean, Marius, Cosette, Eponine, Enjolras, Javert)…once again the couple is skating, the music is playing, the story we know…but all of it separately. What is also interesting is the fact that Chock & Bates have a very decent edges, far to be called deep edges. Many people criticise Cappellini for not having good technique (deep edges are a part of good technique)…and watching Madison and Evan’s blades leads to ending that they have the same not deep edges like Italian couple. So if Cappellini has poor technique, Chock & Bates also have…

Looking at those three couples - the couple with deeper edges are Hubbell & Donohue, in the same time I find them the best dancers from those three couples. The US Federation obviously didn’t like them, they were not chosen for the Olympics. But if future of ice dance cathegory would once again go into direction of skaters who can dance and who have good technique – this couple should be American number 1.

Shibutani’s are hard working couple who tries to skate to different sources of music, but I don’t think that Jackson was good choice. I don’t see Jackson even in choreography, only some movements reminds of Jackson‘s style, while 95 % of program is skated in Shibutani’s classical style. I hope that Zueva will have better choice next year. Still this couple also have slightly better and deeper edges than Chock & Bates.

KKonas said:

I have worked with Dick Button during my 10 years working on televised international figure skating events, and although he is not an ice dancer, he is a two-time Olympic gold medalist and knows a thing or two about good skating skills and “edges” since he has also trained and won compulsory figures events. His credentials give his opinion value whether you agree with it or not. How many international figure skating competitions have you even seen live? Including US Nationals and 6 OWGs, my total is 96.

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I have nothing against Dick Button or against you, but I also don’t agree with Button‘s comments. You know him personally and maybe he is charming person, but I don’t think that his career proves that he is great ice dancing specialist. If we would taken into account your number of competition which you saw live – the ending mind is that it took many years to be able to watch so many competitions, which means that older one is better expert than younger one. So Mishin would be better ice dance expert than Krylova, Frank Caroll would be better ice dance expert than Zueva and so on. To compulsory figures – it was about repeating the same moves on exactly same place on the ice, it is not too close to what skating skills and dance holds and deep edges are today. I don’t agree with opinion that necessary all skaters or people who spend many years on the ice or close the ice are necessary ice dancing experts. You can make an expert from many people outside of skating…when you explain them what they should look for…believe me, people are smart, they can learn fastly what to look at.
For example – skating skills – look for deep edges – the angle between blades and ice surface (it will take a little bit longer time for not skater to learn to notice who has deep edges and who not, but he/she will learn it definitely). Look for extended free leg, look for deep knees of standing leg – everybody from not skaters would notice it, if you pointed it. Look for close dance holdings – partners are close to each other and they hold hands, waist, put hand on shoulder. With those instructions you can learn anyone to notice how good or average the couple is. And you don’t need to be Olympic champion or fan who saw 96 events live. If you know Dick Button personaly, you can ask him why he thinks that perfect ice dancing technique means (in his eyes) that the couple is jumping so many times, why he thinks that deep edges are not necessary in ice dancing while people (and I believe that Button also) demand great skating skills with deep edges even in solo skating (and especially Patrick Chan and Jeremy Abbott are praised for it with component mark). You need to be musical one to be able to say who keeps the rhythm and who not. And probably you need some dancing qualities to notice who is good dancer and who not. But as to technique, there are many things which you may notice without being skater and Olympic champion.

Plenty of Ice Dancing folks have also complemented Davis and White. When I have a chance, I'll look it up.

sisinka said:

A
Looking at those three couples - the couple with deeper edges are Hubbell & Donohue, in the same time I find them the best dancers from those three couples. The US Federation obviously didn’t like them, they were not chosen for the Olympics. But if future of ice dance cathegory would once again go into direction of skaters who can dance and who have good technique – this couple should be American number 1.

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It isn't that USFS doesn't like Hubbell/Donahue. The problem this season is that Madison Hubbell has a labral tear and suffers severe hip pain. She has soldiered on, but the pain has affected her performances, sometimes in the twizzles and sometimes in the step sequences, so they haven't been performing at 100% of their capability. Madison may be having surgery after the end of the season to correct the problem.

Matt K said:

....What does V/M have, besides the P&G bit (D/W have that too)

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golden411 said:

Off the top of my head:
Virtue/Moir also have RBC (Royal Bank of Canada), PWC (Price Waterhouse Coopers), Lindt Chocolate, and I forget what else. Audi, which either was or still is one of their sponsors, gave each of them a car within the last year or so.

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blackswanphoto said:

Thats nothing for Olympic champions in a country where skating is so prominent... not even very big companies.. most probably signed on before Scott started putting his foot in his mouth...

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A timeline in response to blackswanphoto's skepticism re the timing of Virtue/Moir's sponsorships:

Mrs. P said:

RBC = The Royal Bank of Canada, RBC Royal Bank or RBC Financial Group is the largest financial institution in Canada, as measured by deposits, revenues, and market capitalization. The bank serves 18 million clients and has 80,100 employees worldwide. (They also have stock exchanged in New York). They are not some small financial Canadian company. They have many branches/operations internationally. Also "RBC is listed as the largest Canadian company by revenue and market capitalization by The Globe and Mail[5] and was ranked at number 53 on the 2008 Forbes Global 2000 listing, and currently ranked at 50 in the 2013 listing.[6][7] The company has operations in Canada, and 51 other countries."

Lindt Chocolate = Lindt & Sprüngli, revenues of more than $2 million based in Switzerland. I have Lindt Chocolate in my cabinet!

Price Water Coopers = A multinational professional services firm headquartered in London, United Kingdom.[2] It is the world's second largest professional services firm measured by 2013 revenues, and is one of the Big Four auditors, along with Deloitte, Ernst & Young (EY) and KPMG.[5]
PwC has offices in 776 cities across 159 countries and employs over 180,000 people.[4] It had total revenues of $31.5 billion in FY 2012, of which $14.9 billion was generated by its Assurance practice, $7.9 billion by its Tax practice and $8.7 billion by its Advisory practice.[4]
The firm was formed in 1998 by a merger between Coopers & Lybrand and Price Waterhouse.[1] The trading name was shortened to PwC in September 2010 as part of a major rebranding exercise.[6]
As of 2012 PwC United States is the fifth-largest privately owned organization in the United States.[7]

And Audi = Audi AG is a German automobile manufacturer that designs, engineers, manufactures and distributes automobiles. Audi oversees worldwide operations from its headquarters in Ingolstadt, Bavaria, Germany. (Revenues $48 billion)...


Try doing some research before you spout out random things, OK?

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And thanks to Mrs. P for all the data on the significant size of V/M's sponsors. As always, appreciate your research.

chuckm said:

It isn't that USFS doesn't like Hubbell/Donahue. The problem this season is that Madison Hubbell has a labral tear and suffers severe hip pain. She has soldiered on, but the pain has affected her performances, sometimes in the twizzles and sometimes in the step sequences, so they haven't been performing at 100% of their capability. Madison may be having surgery after the end of the season to correct the problem.

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I hope that Madison will get well soon. I am watching this couple all three years they are together and they are a good couple. Twizzles and step sequences - I was watching especially US Nationals and I didn't see some major problems (but I saw Alex Shibutani in trouble with twizzles and overall Bates is not good in twizzles as well). Problem with health may keep Madison and Zachary from 100% performance, but it didn't keep them from skating and dancing better than Chock and Shibutani.
(And when we saw such extremely high marks for all couples at US Nationals and also after watching Europeans when you can get 100 point with fall in element who was made badly from the beginning, everything is possible. Even if Madison made some minor mistakes, it doen't mean that they should be hold at fourth position behind Chock and Shibutani, and if they had their Federation support, they would be definitely higher).

Situation in Russian ice dance looks to be even more complicated…number one Bobrova & Soloviev missing European Championships and coming back to last year‘s free dance, Ilinykh & Katsalapov bombing at last two very important competitions, Riazanova & Tkachenko out of Olympics, Sinitsina & Zhiganshin making fantastic four place at their first European Championships, Monko & Khaliavin, Stepanova & Bukin preparing for Junior World Championships…

Looking at skating and dancing qualities…B&S, S&Z, M&K and I&K are the top of Russian ice dancing, R&T and S&B are not reaching their level both in presentation and technique.
If I would divide ice dance into things which are or should be important and put those best four couples in order of how good they are in it…
…edges quality…all equal
…dancing qualities (ballroom and latin dances)…B&S, S&Z, M&K, I&K
…dancing holds…B&S, S&Z, together I&K and M&K
…expressing of music/story…at least this season S&Z, B&S, M&K, I&K (last season B&S, M&K, S&Z, I&K)
…speed…all equal
…twizzles…I am afraid every time when the couples go for twizzles, not even one couple is too consistent in it
…difficulty in programs (in between elements)…B&S, S&Z, M&K, I&K
…variety in programs/characters (throught years)…B&S, M&K, S&Z, I&K
…keeping the rhythm…B&S, M&K, S&Z, I&K
…work of arms (especially ladies job)…S&Z, B&S, M&K, I&K
…lifts…M&K, B&S, I&K, S&Z
…some Lena and Nikita’s fan pointed entertainment also…OK, it would be I&K, S&Z, M&K, B&S

Overall the best team is B&S, followed by other three teams where I would give preferences to S&Z, followed by M&K. Thanks to simplicity of programs, no connection to music/story, just posing in front of judges, out of the rhythm issues I would put I&K on fourth place.

I was always surprised that some people here discussed that I&K had no support from Russian Federation.
If I would forget about off ice talking and try to think what “support by Federation“ means – I would come with an idea that supported team is that one who is excused in moment of making mistakes, who is praised all the time, a team who is given another and another chance even in moment when that team doesn’t deserve it. I tried to apply it on all Russian top couples…

Stepanova & Bukin – Tarasova loves Ivan (and his father as well), while international judges are not giving too high marks to them in seniors, the couple gets extra high marks at Russian competitions (69 and 95 point at Junior Nationals – that is really too much comparing with what they executed), Federation talks about the couple with great respect making them the best and unreachable world junior team (and this is putting down Yanovskaya & Mozgov, but Russian Federation doesn’t care about it).

Riazanova & Tkachenko – the effort which allowed this couple to jump from fifth to third place overall at last year’s Russian Nationals was enormous and too visible, the couple got around 103 points for free dance, this year a protection of this couple looks to be over but I am still thinking that this couple is sitting in third spot for World Championships in moment when S&Z will make some mistakes at the Olympics.

Monko & Khaliavin – zero action from Russian Federation like they would never exist.

Sinitsina & Zhiganshin – after European Championships for the first time somebody from Russian Federation mentioned that the couple is not only young but also very talented and deserve Olympic spot (they were very talented and promising since 2011/12 season, it is nice that after 3 years Russian Federation noticed it).
This couple got no protection from Russian Federation in front of Matthieu Jost - a technical specialist who gave them 4 points deduction to help his former ice dance partner Carron to win the Winter Universiade.

Ilinykh & Katsalapov – after their Junior World Gold Medal many people in Russian and whole Russian Federation talked about them like ,,next Olympic Champions“ and predicted them to be another Tessa and Scott. Even with not good showing at first senior Grand Prix (mistakes, missed element, fall), average showing at second and third Grand Prix year, and not qualifying to this year‘s Grand Prix Final didn’t stop those superlatives and compliments about their skating abilities. With poor performances at free skate in 2011 and 2013 Worlds they are still kept in top 10. They had falls every season (other couples also had). But they are the only couple where Russian Federation excuses their mistakes pointing the age, a little experiences (even during their fourth year at senior level). Russian Federation always talks more about their talent then about missed results, the couple always gets another chance to prove their qualities. They are never criticised by Federation, the only thing which was against them came from Tarasova – yes, those low working ethic (by the way this comment was never used for other dance teams mentioned here).

Bobrova & Soloviev – Russian Federation always criticised their programs – they were forced to change it many times - short dance in 2010/11 and 2013/14 season, music for free dance in 2012/13 and 2013/14 season, and lastly a comeback to old free dance (Ilinykh was never forced to change any program althought their Andijan Polka was a big question for rules, because such Polka doesn’t exist). B&S were criticised for all mistakes already in 2010/11 season althought they were in similar age of I&K (20 and 21 years old), they were so hardly criticised for a fall althought they had to change music of free dance in September (and Four Seasons music was much more faster than previous music). Russian Federation allows and support theories about number 1 couple every year...they immediately accepted I&K like number one after 2012 World Championships, totally ignoring the fact that during that season I&K lost twice to B&S (at Nationals and European Champs) and B&S were Grand Prix Final qualifiers while I&K were not.

I don’t like when people punish hard and say bad words about couples but I am for the same approach to every couple, if you are strict to one couple, then to every couple, if you excuses mistakes looking at one couple then you should excuse all couples.
It is strange that looking at Russian Forum and Russian Federation reactions (maybe they are writing at that forum) – when Bobrova fell on row place, it was a disaster and inexcusable mistake, when Ilinykh fell in required element (which should lead to loosing more points, but didn’t lead to) – it simply happens, it was an exception, it was a good think because it will help a couple to improve and it means that when Ilinykh fell this time, she would not fall at the Olympics. Why such difference?

Since Russian Federation once said that I&K are next Olympic Champions, they don’t want to say that they could be wrong with this early prediction. They supported I&K so much throught past four year and they always tried to get a maximum result for the couple.
So after this year I think that Russian Federation will continue to push I&K over other Russian teams. They will change their approach from “one Olympic cycle finishing with Olympic Gold medal“ to “two Olympic cycles tour“. But I think that is a place where a problems will start. Bobrova & Soloviev doesn’t want to finish, so the number 1 will not be free for I&K. And young and inexperienced couples like S&Z are already on I&K‘s level of skating and on better level in dancing. And there are M&K and S&B also… I&K were always trying to hunt B&S and B&S always had to prove they are better. But the Olympic cycle comes to the end…and while I&K improved during those four years but not so much as was expected…other young Russian teams and B&S improved more…so I expect that this year’s situation will continue next year - while S&Z already skated better at European Championships (at least in free skate, in my opininon they were better in short dance also), the next year it will be I&K who would be forced to prove that they deserve a spot at European and World Champs and at least S&Z (but I wouldn’t be surprised with M&K and S&B) will be hunting I&K and trying to take their spot. The question is if Russian Federation will be able to be more objective and judge correctly - looking at skating and dancing without thinking what they had told in 2010 on address of I&K…

KKonas said:

Praise for D&W from Dick Button
Icenetwork: Watching the skaters in Boston, what was a big positive?
Button: Well, you've given me very broad ground there. It's hard to answer. Let me say that Meryl Davis and Charlie White are absolutely the supreme quality of what we are looking at. I was watching them today, and their technical merit of skating is simply exquisite. The way they float over the ice, the way they move, the constancy, the comfort they have, is simply mind-blowing.

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Obviously Davis and White do have their good qualities, However I must say I do think Virtue/ Moir ARE The better team. For me its not about skating skills because both teams have good skills albeit in different areas.

For me its the "dancer quality" Virture/Moir have much better posture and lines-or I should say Tessa has) and this is suppose to be ice dancing. I don't necessarily love V/M's free, but I do think V/M are not rewarded enough for these qualities. Its suppose to be ice dancing, and so to me, lines should matter more than they clearly do.

Now has V/M improved as much as D/W, no I think thanks to Tessa's injuries. But it doesn't change the fact that I think there always was this gap.

I'm not saying Merle hasn't improved, but she's still no Tessa in that department. And not only is she no Tessa, I think there are a few ladies who are better at it the lines aspect of ice dancing although Merle has other qualities.

I think V/M made a mistake not to leave with Igor and so they could have a coach who championed their better qualities. Because they do have them. I know that its sad when someone like Zhulin has to spell it out. Virture/Moir are just much more about what Ice dancing is suppose to be about.

It makes me sad, I don't think they will win the Olympics, but they really should be two time Olympic Champs.

to me, virtue/moir bring the dance in 'ice dance'. davis/white are more like gymnasts on ice - they have more athleticism but not nearly as much of the musicality.

"Dance" covers an enormous amount of creative work, not all of which takes place in a ballroom or on pointe. Take a look at the amazing work of Pilobolus, one of my favorite dance companies. They're quite "gymnastic," as you put it, but no one would ever dispute that this, too, is "dance." Some of their work is on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kq8DTT36AU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y38bUumNak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6pucQ9jNT8

Wouldn't it be so much more interesting if "Ice Dancing" truly lived up to its name and didn't confine itself to "Ballroom/Ballet Dancing on Ice"? A boy can dream...

WeakAnkles said:

"Dance" covers an enormous amount of creative work, not all of which takes place in a ballroom or on pointe. Take a look at the amazing work of Pilobolus, one of my favorite dance companies. They're quite "gymnastic," as you put it, but no one would ever dispute that this, too, is "dance." Some of their work is on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kq8DTT36AU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y38bUumNak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6pucQ9jNT8

Wouldn't it be so much more interesting if "Ice Dancing" truly lived up to its name and didn't confine itself to "Ballroom/Ballet Dancing on Ice"? A boy can dream...

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Who said dance is just ballet ballroom? However ballet especially is a foundation. A lot of what dance is though is about body awareness. Look at this dance to Pink Floyd. See the body awareness that Tessa and Scott have. (I like Charlie well enough although I think Scott is better) But Tessa is much more of a dancer than Merle is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTrW25BJa6g

This isn't really the attack on Merle its sounding like. Its just Virtue/Moir are special....

bekalc said:

Who said dance is just ballet ballroom? However ballet especially is a foundation. A lot of what dance is though is about body awareness. Look at this dance to Pink Floyd. See the body awareness that Tessa and Scott have. (I like Charlie well enough although I think Scott is better) But Tessa is much more of a dancer than Merle is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTrW25BJa6g


This isn't really the attack on Merle its sounding like. Its just Virtue/Moir are special....

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And Meryl and Charlie are special..

blackswanphoto said:

And Meryl and Charlie are special..

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I wouldn't put them up there with the great dance teams like K/P, T/D etc. They aren't "dancy enough" for me. I think Virtue and Moir are. I think its sad dance doesn't value dance enough. Sorry, its my opinion and I'm sticking to it.


K/P were another team who didn't win nearly as much titles as they should have.

bekalc said:

I wouldn't put them up there with the great dance teams like K/P, T/D etc. They aren't "dancy enough" for me. I think Virtue and Moir are. I think its sad dance doesn't value dance enough.

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I would not put them up there with those teams either....I would put them above them, because they are MUCH BETTER than any of those teams... I'm sorry I do not find Virtue and Moir at all special. To me they are like Punsalan and Swallow 2.0. But to each their own.

blackswanphoto said:

I would not put them up there with those teams either....I would put them above them, because they are MUCH BETTER than any of those teams... I'm sorry I do not find Virtue and Moir at all special. To me they are like Punsalan and Swallow 2.0. But to each their own.

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To each their own.

Punsalan and Swallow left us a great tango that I still watch to this day. V/M are in good company!! I watch D/W this year and they do nothing for me. COP has ripped the soul out of them all you see is Charlie rushing to the next element and Meryl badly overacting for them both. The eroticism that Marina said was added to the program looks awkward more than anything else. Their earlier work before Phantom of the Opera was much more engaging. But as you say to each their own.

Punsalan/Swallow should have won a medal in Nagano! There are definitely worse teams to be compared to.

bramweld said:

Punsalan and Swallow left us a great tango that I still watch to this day. V/M are in good company!! I watch D/W this year and they do nothing for me. COP has ripped the soul out of them all you see is Charlie rushing to the next element and Meryl badly overacting for them both. The eroticism that Marina said was added to the program looks awkward more than anything else. Their earlier work before Phantom of the Opera was much more engaging. But as you say to each their own.

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I love the running, I love the overacting, I love the bunny hops. Much more exciting than watching a boring program that could be comparable to watching paint dry.