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Thread: Should it have been a choice between Nagasu & Edmunds for final spot on U.S Olympic team?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    ITA...and, to be perfectly honest, Polina could skate two very good programs and still not finish in the top ten. I can think of more than ten ladies who can (and probably will) beat her in Sochi: Kim, Asada, Kostner, Lipnitskaia, Gold, Sotnikova, Wagner, Li, Osmond, Murakami, and Suzuki. Mao88 is absolutely correct -- the USFSA will have a LOT of hard questions to answer if Polina underperforms, a la the decision to send Kovtun instead of Menshov to 2013 Worlds. Not even Gracie Gold was sent to senior Worlds after only one international season as a junior.

    There's not much use in griping about the decision now, but I still don't understand the USFSA's logic behind Polina's selection. Yes, she's the future and her talent should be encouraged, but if she lost to Sotskova, Sakhanovich, and Medvedeva at the JUNIOR Grand Prix Final, how does it make sense that she'll manage a high finish at the Olympics, against the best ladies in the world?

    Also, the margin between Mirai and Polina at Nationals would have been even smaller had Mirai not received the time deduction for her FS.
    But see, that's the point. Everyone is talking about how the margin should have been closer when in fact the margin should have been a chasm ... in Mirai's favor. The fact that that the margin was so close is the issue, not to mention it was in Polina's favor. It isn't that Polina is so close to her it's that Mirai, an ostensible Olympian, is so close to Polina. A person with her aspirations is supposed to blow someone of Polina's tender years out of the water. But not only did she not, she actually lost to her and that was probably THE determining issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RABID View Post
    But see, that's the point. Everyone is talking about how the margin should have been closer when in fact the margin should have been a chasm ... in Mirai's favor. The fact that that the margin was so close is the issue, not to mention it was in Polina's favor. It isn't that Polina is so close to her it's that Mirai, an ostensible Olympian, is so close to Polina. A person with her aspirations is supposed to blow someone of Polina's tender years out of the water. But not only did she not, she actually lost to her and that was probably THE determining issue.
    I think we can agree, though, that Polina's PCS at Nationals were absurd. In no Olympic universe would or should she receive close to 30 SP/62 FS ... heck, those are close to Gracie's INTERNATIONAL bests. At the VERY least, even without a triple-triple in the free skate, Mirai should have been marked higher in PCS and higher overall -- she skates with womanly maturity and musicality and elegance, whereas Polina still skates very much like a junior. Even Julia Lipnitskaia would best her in PCS.

    I'm never eager to jump on the conspiracy bandwagon, but it seemed to me that the Nationals judges were being very generous to Polina (even adjusting for Nationals inflation) while holding Mirai down. Your guess as to why is as good as mine.

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    It always was. It is simply idiots who delude themselves it was Wagner vs Nagasu, when in fact Wagner was never in danger of missing out, nor should she have been. Nagasu ubers should be focusing on Edmunds and only Edmunds if they must insist on their endless complaints of her omission from the team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    I think USFSA would have been crucified had it selected the 4th place finisher over the silver medalist. They have taken a ton of heat over picking Ashley over the bronze medalist.
    I dont agree. Polina isnt a popular skater yet like Nagasu so nobody would have really cared. It would also have been easily understood sending a junior skater with no senior experience to Junior Worlds instead of the Olympics or even Worlds, and making her the sacrificial lamb for the U.Ss top skater of late- Wagner. Nagasu created more controversy due to her popularity, and that she is also a past successful senior skater of some semblance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I dont agree. Polina isnt a popular skater yet like Nagasu so nobody would have really cared. It would also have been easily understood sending a junior skater with no senior experience to Junior Worlds instead of the Olympics or even Worlds, and making her the sacrificial lamb for the U.Ss top skater of late- Wagner. Nagasu created more controversy due to her popularity, and that she is also a past successful senior skater of some semblance.
    Even if it had been Samantha, Christina, or Courtney in 3rd place, I think that the USFSA and Ashley would be taking less flack now. Mirai is such a sentimental favorite, and it didn't help that everyone was happy to jump on the let's-crucify-Ashley bandwagon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    I think we can agree, though, that Polina's PCS at Nationals were absurd. In no Olympic universe would or should she receive close to 30 SP/62 FS ... heck, those are close to Gracie's INTERNATIONAL bests. At the VERY least, even without a triple-triple in the free skate, Mirai should have been marked higher in PCS and higher overall -- she skates with womanly maturity and musicality and elegance, whereas Polina still skates very much like a junior. Even Julia Lipnitskaia would best her in PCS.

    I'm never eager to jump on the conspiracy bandwagon, but it seemed to me that the Nationals judges were being very generous to Polina (even adjusting for Nationals inflation) while holding Mirai down. Your guess as to why is as good as mine.
    BOTH programs have room for criticism. Polina had nerves of steel, had ALL the elements but still looked junior-ish. Mirai had the major elements but they were like islands unto themselves. I had said in earlier posts that she could have had smoke breaks between those elements; it looked like she was substituting transitions for pauses, they were that long. And wasn't I pleasantly surprised to hear David Lease mention smoke breaks as well; that tells me I wasn't the only one to notice that MAJOR deficiency in her program. In other words I am not going to agree with you. If Polina's PCS were absurd then so were Mirai's; in other words it's a wash, and my point of contention stands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RABID View Post
    BOTH programs have room for criticism. Polina had nerves of steel, had ALL the elements but still looked junior-ish. Mirai had the major elements but they were like islands unto themselves. I had said in earlier posts that she could have had smoke breaks between those elements; it looked like she was substituting transitions for pauses, they were that long. And wasn't I pleasantly surprised to hear David Lease mention smoke breaks as well; that tells me I wasn't the only one to notice that MAJOR deficiency in her program. In other words I am not going to agree with you. If Polina's PCS were absurd then so were Mirai's; in other words it's a wash, and my point of contention stands.
    Well...okay? I wasn't trying to convince you of anything, merely expressing my own views on the subject. You can keep your opinion, and I'll keep mine. Therein lies the beauty of a discussion board.

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    No, let's get this out of the way once and for all. Mirai simply didn't deserve to go to the Olympics. Her performance in Vancouver four years ago was supposed to be a springboard for all the wonderful things she was destined to accomplish. Instead, she sort of wandered through the past four years like a zombie, seeming mostly uninterested in skating and doing just enough in order to not be deemed a failure. I applaud her for turning on the juice in the past few months, but really...it's way too little too late. Also, her programs this year were mostly snooze-fests...not interesting choreographically, not in the same league at all as her supposed competition.

  9. #24
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    Mirai DID deserve to go to the Olympics. Going by their own criteria, Nagasu should have been chosen over Edmunds who was clearly held up anyway with HUGE PCS scores and had a fall. Junior results should NEVER trump those from the senior ranks. I think it is obsurd that it seems to have in this case. Jmo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poodlepal View Post
    You can't really compare baseball/football/basketball to skating. For one thing, you really can't discuss who designs their costumes in those sports. They all wear the same thing!

    In my opinion, Ashley and Davis/White should have been named to the Olympic team the day after their Grand Prix medal. Then, it should have been made clear that there were only two spots open in ice dance and ladies. The top two spots (other than the people already named) would be sent to the Olympics. No vague"prior bodies of work" to consider, no suddenly going back to pick apart programs that they had already judged (yes, Mirai stood still and Polina was gangly at times, but they still beat Ashley!) Cut, dry, fair, and you know, they got the exact team they got anyway!

    Now some people will forever see Ashley as some princess who got a gift based on her looks/race/hair color and Mirai will be seen as some sort of a victim. It's not fair to either of them. The only way Ashley can fix this is if she skates really, really well at the Olympics, and I don't completely trust her to do so.
    This is how I wish that the USFSA had done it. It would have prevented this controversy and much heartache on Mirai's part especially.

    Quote Originally Posted by noskates View Post
    Gahhh - I was not going to post in this thread again but there seems to be an issue that WE the fans were not warned of this. I keep saying the skaters KNEW it was a possibility. Heard that directly from a coach BEFORE the women skated the final. Just because we did not know about it and just because the commentators were not hammering it into us does not mean it hasn't been run by the skaters repeatedly. And - again - even Mirai knew this was a possibility before the decision was announced.

    I think we're all beating a very, very dead horse!!! (where's that emoticon when you need it!)
    Did Mirai tell you this herself? Because she sure didn't act like it in the K&C. Ashley didn't either. Mirai looked thrilled while Ashley looked devastated. One seemed to think she had made the team while the other looked like she thought she'd blown it. Jmo.

    Quote Originally Posted by RABID View Post
    But see, that's the point. Everyone is talking about how the margin should have been closer when in fact the margin should have been a chasm ... in Mirai's favor. The fact that that the margin was so close is the issue, not to mention it was in Polina's favor. It isn't that Polina is so close to her it's that Mirai, an ostensible Olympian, is so close to Polina. A person with her aspirations is supposed to blow someone of Polina's tender years out of the water. But not only did she not, she actually lost to her and that was probably THE determining issue.
    I completely agree with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    I think we can agree, though, that Polina's PCS at Nationals were absurd. In no Olympic universe would or should she receive close to 30 SP/62 FS ... heck, those are close to Gracie's INTERNATIONAL bests. At the VERY least, even without a triple-triple in the free skate, Mirai should have been marked higher in PCS and higher overall -- she skates with womanly maturity and musicality and elegance, whereas Polina still skates very much like a junior. Even Julia Lipnitskaia would best her in PCS.

    I'm never eager to jump on the conspiracy bandwagon, but it seemed to me that the Nationals judges were being very generous to Polina (even adjusting for Nationals inflation) while holding Mirai down. Your guess as to why is as good as mine.
    I felt this was the case the moment Polina's scores came up after her SP. Mirai messed their plans up though by skating well in both programs. Smh.

  10. #25
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    I don't remember a National champ getting upstaged by the silver, bronze and pewter finishers before. Gracie showed much improvement in PCS, and I am glad she changed her short program. She skated well, and was the undisputed winner.

    I would have preferred the top three finishers go to Olympics. Yes, I believe Polina's PCS was inflated, but I still would have placed her in the top three. Sending Polina to Worlds puzzled me, but after reading the threads and marinating for a few days, it occurred to me that this gives Polina a significant advantage for next season. Several eligible contenders won't attend, and ANY worlds placement puts Polina ahead of all Americans except Gracie and Ashley for GP assignments for which she would likely not have been invited had she not attended Worlds. This also gives Polina a huge advantage for making the World team next year too, as she will have her Nationals, Olympic and World scores to hold her up, and likely grand prixs as well.

    I enjoyed all three of Mirai's performances at Nationals. No falls, only one underrotated triple, and the protocols show she is the only one of the top five to receive all level 4 in both the SP and LP. She should have AT LEAST been rewarded with a Worlds assignment.

    Ashley has been the top American lady for the last two years, and she has had some very good performances. Changing her long program seems like a good idea, as R&J was doing her no favors. Looking at her Nationals protocols across the SP and LP, she had no triple-triple, no 2A-3T, and no 3 jump combo. She has a lot of work to do before the Olympics.

    I will be rooting for Mirai, Sammi and Courtney at 4CC, and for the Olympic/World Team members to all skate their best.

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    Article entitled: 'Fury as star figure skater who fell TWICE at Olympic qualifiers and came fourth is chosen for Team USA ahead of woman who came third'

    This type of article which tries to make Wagner the villain really is pretty silly. Clearly, the lesson to be learnt in all this is that Ashley Wagner and Gracie Gold should have been pre-selected for the Olympic team prior to Nationals and it should have been made clear to the rest that only one place was up for grabs, and that the outcome of Nationals would be only one of several factors in terms of selection criteria. That is, the U.S. Fed needs to go back to the drawing board with its selection policy for future Olympic and World teams.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harness View Post
    I don't remember a National champ getting upstaged by the silver, bronze and pewter finishers before. Gracie showed much improvement in PCS, and I am glad she changed her short program. She skated well, and was the undisputed winner.

    I would have preferred the top three finishers go to Olympics. Yes, I believe Polina's PCS was inflated, but I still would have placed her in the top three. Sending Polina to Worlds puzzled me, but after reading the threads and marinating for a few days, it occurred to me that this gives Polina a significant advantage for next season. Several eligible contenders won't attend, and ANY worlds placement puts Polina ahead of all Americans except Gracie and Ashley for GP assignments for which she would likely not have been invited had she not attended Worlds. This also gives Polina a huge advantage for making the World team next year too, as she will have her Nationals, Olympic and World scores to hold her up, and likely grand prixs as well.

    I enjoyed all three of Mirai's performances at Nationals. No falls, only one underrotated triple, and the protocols show she is the only one of the top five to receive all level 4 in both the SP and LP. She should have AT LEAST been rewarded with a Worlds assignment.

    Ashley has been the top American lady for the last two years, and she has had some very good performances. Changing her long program seems like a good idea, as R&J was doing her no favors. Looking at her Nationals protocols across the SP and LP, she had no triple-triple, no 2A-3T, and no 3 jump combo. She has a lot of work to do before the Olympics.

    I will be rooting for Mirai, Sammi and Courtney at 4CC, and for the Olympic/World Team members to all skate their best.
    Both Ashley and Gracie need to be on the Worlds team if the US is to hold on to 3 spots for next year, since I think we can assume that neither will win the event and secure the 3 spots automatically. I feel that leaving Mirai off of the Worlds team was hitting below the belt, though -- since Jason Brown and Zhang/Bartholomay (who had much better performances at Nationals than Polina) were nixed, you'd think that the USFSA would have chucked Polina as well. The fact that they didn't makes it clear who they're boosting, and at whose expense. I hope that Mirai shows her mettle at 4CC and gets on the podium, if only to prove that Nationals wasn't a fluke.

    I do feel a bit sorry for Gracie, too. She had two amazing skates at Nationals, but she's been completely overshadowed by the Olympic selection controversy. I didn't think it would be possible for her international PCS to be in the high 60's, but after Julia's Euros performance, I'm not so sure.

  13. #28
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    Originally Posted by Poodlepal

    In my opinion, Ashley and Davis/White should have been named to the Olympic team the day after their Grand Prix medal. Then, it should have been made clear that there were only two spots open in ice dance and ladies. The top two spots (other than the people already named) would be sent to the Olympics. No vague"prior bodies of work" to consider, no suddenly going back to pick apart programs that they had already judged (yes, Mirai stood still and Polina was gangly at times, but they still beat Ashley!) Cut, dry, fair, and you know, they got the exact team they got anyway!
    That also would have been an unprecedented move on USFS' part, and I wonder if it would truly have been less controversial (while it would have likely relaxed Wagner for Nationals, imagine if she had the same performances anyway...). Still, there would be less hard feelings among skaters and fans, I think.

    One thing's for sure - I expect changes to the selection criteria for 2018...

    ___________________

    On the topic, I think they went with Edmunds because 1) she's 2nd, and bumping her would have been an even BIGGER controversy, and 2) they want to invest in the future and see her as the "best bet". If Edmunds was 3rd and Nagasu 2nd, I think Nagasu would have gone and Edmunds would have been the one left off for Wagner.

    Several (alternate) ways this could have gone:

    1) Send Nagasu to Olympics & Wagner to Worlds, Gold+Edmunds to both (note: this would be CONSISTENT with decisions made in other disciplines)
    2) Send Edmunds to Olympics, Nagasu to Worlds, Gold+Wagner to both
    3) Send Wagner to Olympics, Nagasu to Worlds, Gold+Edmunds to both
    and so on.


    After some thought, I would have given serious consideration to 2) if it was up to me. IMHO, Nagasu honestly deserved more than just 4CC for finishing 3rd in a year where the US had 3 Oly/World spots. Plus, the presence of Gold & Wagner makes keeping 3 spots more likely so fewer worries about Nagasu's up/down-ness.

    Who knows though - suppose one of Gold or Wagner end up winning a medal and bowing out of worlds - then Nagasu gets to go anyway. Hope she's prepared for that possibility (however unlikely it may seem).

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mao88 View Post
    Clearly, the lesson to be learnt in all this is that Ashley Wagner and Gracie Gold should have been pre-selected for the Olympic team prior to Nationals and it should have been made clear to the rest that only one place was up for grabs, and that the outcome of Nationals would be only one of several factors in terms of selection criteria.
    I think 2 places were up for grabs. Despite her potential, Gracie did not have the results to bump a 3rd place finisher if she were off the podium. Had she bombed Nationals, Gracie would have had a very mediocre season not worthy of special treatment.

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    Edmunds needs to go to Sochi if only because the Russians have been pushing their young skaters much more then the US has and Edmunds was held back unfairly by not doing the JGP last season. It's time to take a chance with these girls coming up.

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