Should it have been a choice between Nagasu & Edmunds for final spot on U.S Olympic team?

ForeverFish said:

I think we can agree, though, that Polina's PCS at Nationals were absurd. In no Olympic universe would or should she receive close to 30 SP/62 FS ... heck, those are close to Gracie's INTERNATIONAL bests. At the VERY least, even without a triple-triple in the free skate, Mirai should have been marked higher in PCS and higher overall -- she skates with womanly maturity and musicality and elegance, whereas Polina still skates very much like a junior. Even Julia Lipnitskaia would best her in PCS.

I'm never eager to jump on the conspiracy bandwagon, but it seemed to me that the Nationals judges were being very generous to Polina (even adjusting for Nationals inflation) while holding Mirai down. Your guess as to why is as good as mine.

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BOTH programs have room for criticism. Polina had nerves of steel, had ALL the elements but still looked junior-ish. Mirai had the major elements but they were like islands unto themselves. I had said in earlier posts that she could have had smoke breaks between those elements; it looked like she was substituting transitions for pauses, they were that long. And wasn't I pleasantly surprised to hear David Lease mention smoke breaks as well; that tells me I wasn't the only one to notice that MAJOR deficiency in her program. In other words I am not going to agree with you. If Polina's PCS were absurd then so were Mirai's; in other words it's a wash, and my point of contention stands.

RABID said:

BOTH programs have room for criticism. Polina had nerves of steel, had ALL the elements but still looked junior-ish. Mirai had the major elements but they were like islands unto themselves. I had said in earlier posts that she could have had smoke breaks between those elements; it looked like she was substituting transitions for pauses, they were that long. And wasn't I pleasantly surprised to hear David Lease mention smoke breaks as well; that tells me I wasn't the only one to notice that MAJOR deficiency in her program. In other words I am not going to agree with you. If Polina's PCS were absurd then so were Mirai's; in other words it's a wash, and my point of contention stands.

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Well...okay? I wasn't trying to convince you of anything, merely expressing my own views on the subject. You can keep your opinion, and I'll keep mine. Therein lies the beauty of a discussion board.

No, let's get this out of the way once and for all. Mirai simply didn't deserve to go to the Olympics. Her performance in Vancouver four years ago was supposed to be a springboard for all the wonderful things she was destined to accomplish. Instead, she sort of wandered through the past four years like a zombie, seeming mostly uninterested in skating and doing just enough in order to not be deemed a failure. I applaud her for turning on the juice in the past few months, but really...it's way too little too late. Also, her programs this year were mostly snooze-fests...not interesting choreographically, not in the same league at all as her supposed competition.

Mirai DID deserve to go to the Olympics. Going by their own criteria, Nagasu should have been chosen over Edmunds who was clearly held up anyway with HUGE PCS scores and had a fall. Junior results should NEVER trump those from the senior ranks. I think it is obsurd that it seems to have in this case. Jmo.

Poodlepal said:

You can't really compare baseball/football/basketball to skating. For one thing, you really can't discuss who designs their costumes in those sports. They all wear the same thing!

In my opinion, Ashley and Davis/White should have been named to the Olympic team the day after their Grand Prix medal. Then, it should have been made clear that there were only two spots open in ice dance and ladies. The top two spots (other than the people already named) would be sent to the Olympics. No vague"prior bodies of work" to consider, no suddenly going back to pick apart programs that they had already judged (yes, Mirai stood still and Polina was gangly at times, but they still beat Ashley!) Cut, dry, fair, and you know, they got the exact team they got anyway!

Now some people will forever see Ashley as some princess who got a gift based on her looks/race/hair color and Mirai will be seen as some sort of a victim. It's not fair to either of them. The only way Ashley can fix this is if she skates really, really well at the Olympics, and I don't completely trust her to do so.

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This is how I wish that the USFSA had done it. It would have prevented this controversy and much heartache on Mirai's part especially.

noskates said:

Gahhh - I was not going to post in this thread again but there seems to be an issue that WE the fans were not warned of this. I keep saying the skaters KNEW it was a possibility. Heard that directly from a coach BEFORE the women skated the final. Just because we did not know about it and just because the commentators were not hammering it into us does not mean it hasn't been run by the skaters repeatedly. And - again - even Mirai knew this was a possibility before the decision was announced.

I think we're all beating a very, very dead horse!!! (where's that emoticon when you need it!)

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Did Mirai tell you this herself? Because she sure didn't act like it in the K&C. Ashley didn't either. Mirai looked thrilled while Ashley looked devastated. One seemed to think she had made the team while the other looked like she thought she'd blown it. Jmo.

RABID said:

But see, that's the point. Everyone is talking about how the margin should have been closer when in fact the margin should have been a chasm ... in Mirai's favor. The fact that that the margin was so close is the issue, not to mention it was in Polina's favor. It isn't that Polina is so close to her it's that Mirai, an ostensible Olympian, is so close to Polina. A person with her aspirations is supposed to blow someone of Polina's tender years out of the water. But not only did she not, she actually lost to her and that was probably THE determining issue.

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I completely agree with this.

ForeverFish said:

I think we can agree, though, that Polina's PCS at Nationals were absurd. In no Olympic universe would or should she receive close to 30 SP/62 FS ... heck, those are close to Gracie's INTERNATIONAL bests. At the VERY least, even without a triple-triple in the free skate, Mirai should have been marked higher in PCS and higher overall -- she skates with womanly maturity and musicality and elegance, whereas Polina still skates very much like a junior. Even Julia Lipnitskaia would best her in PCS.

I'm never eager to jump on the conspiracy bandwagon, but it seemed to me that the Nationals judges were being very generous to Polina (even adjusting for Nationals inflation) while holding Mirai down. Your guess as to why is as good as mine.

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I felt this was the case the moment Polina's scores came up after her SP. Mirai messed their plans up though by skating well in both programs. Smh.

I don't remember a National champ getting upstaged by the silver, bronze and pewter finishers before. Gracie showed much improvement in PCS, and I am glad she changed her short program. She skated well, and was the undisputed winner.

I would have preferred the top three finishers go to Olympics. Yes, I believe Polina's PCS was inflated, but I still would have placed her in the top three. Sending Polina to Worlds puzzled me, but after reading the threads and marinating for a few days, it occurred to me that this gives Polina a significant advantage for next season. Several eligible contenders won't attend, and ANY worlds placement puts Polina ahead of all Americans except Gracie and Ashley for GP assignments for which she would likely not have been invited had she not attended Worlds. This also gives Polina a huge advantage for making the World team next year too, as she will have her Nationals, Olympic and World scores to hold her up, and likely grand prixs as well.

I enjoyed all three of Mirai's performances at Nationals. No falls, only one underrotated triple, and the protocols show she is the only one of the top five to receive all level 4 in both the SP and LP. She should have AT LEAST been rewarded with a Worlds assignment.

Ashley has been the top American lady for the last two years, and she has had some very good performances. Changing her long program seems like a good idea, as R&J was doing her no favors. Looking at her Nationals protocols across the SP and LP, she had no triple-triple, no 2A-3T, and no 3 jump combo. She has a lot of work to do before the Olympics.

I will be rooting for Mirai, Sammi and Courtney at 4CC, and for the Olympic/World Team members to all skate their best.

Article entitled: 'Fury as star figure skater who fell TWICE at Olympic qualifiers and came fourth is chosen for Team USA ahead of woman who came third'

This type of article which tries to make Wagner the villain really is pretty silly. Clearly, the lesson to be learnt in all this is that Ashley Wagner and Gracie Gold should have been pre-selected for the Olympic team prior to Nationals and it should have been made clear to the rest that only one place was up for grabs, and that the outcome of Nationals would be only one of several factors in terms of selection criteria. That is, the U.S. Fed needs to go back to the drawing board with its selection policy for future Olympic and World teams.

Harness said:

I don't remember a National champ getting upstaged by the silver, bronze and pewter finishers before. Gracie showed much improvement in PCS, and I am glad she changed her short program. She skated well, and was the undisputed winner.

I would have preferred the top three finishers go to Olympics. Yes, I believe Polina's PCS was inflated, but I still would have placed her in the top three. Sending Polina to Worlds puzzled me, but after reading the threads and marinating for a few days, it occurred to me that this gives Polina a significant advantage for next season. Several eligible contenders won't attend, and ANY worlds placement puts Polina ahead of all Americans except Gracie and Ashley for GP assignments for which she would likely not have been invited had she not attended Worlds. This also gives Polina a huge advantage for making the World team next year too, as she will have her Nationals, Olympic and World scores to hold her up, and likely grand prixs as well.

I enjoyed all three of Mirai's performances at Nationals. No falls, only one underrotated triple, and the protocols show she is the only one of the top five to receive all level 4 in both the SP and LP. She should have AT LEAST been rewarded with a Worlds assignment.

Ashley has been the top American lady for the last two years, and she has had some very good performances. Changing her long program seems like a good idea, as R&J was doing her no favors. Looking at her Nationals protocols across the SP and LP, she had no triple-triple, no 2A-3T, and no 3 jump combo. She has a lot of work to do before the Olympics.

I will be rooting for Mirai, Sammi and Courtney at 4CC, and for the Olympic/World Team members to all skate their best.

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Both Ashley and Gracie need to be on the Worlds team if the US is to hold on to 3 spots for next year, since I think we can assume that neither will win the event and secure the 3 spots automatically. I feel that leaving Mirai off of the Worlds team was hitting below the belt, though -- since Jason Brown and Zhang/Bartholomay (who had much better performances at Nationals than Polina) were nixed, you'd think that the USFSA would have chucked Polina as well. The fact that they didn't makes it clear who they're boosting, and at whose expense. I hope that Mirai shows her mettle at 4CC and gets on the podium, if only to prove that Nationals wasn't a fluke.

I do feel a bit sorry for Gracie, too. She had two amazing skates at Nationals, but she's been completely overshadowed by the Olympic selection controversy. I didn't think it would be possible for her international PCS to be in the high 60's, but after Julia's Euros performance, I'm not so sure.

Originally Posted by Poodlepal

In my opinion, Ashley and Davis/White should have been named to the Olympic team the day after their Grand Prix medal. Then, it should have been made clear that there were only two spots open in ice dance and ladies. The top two spots (other than the people already named) would be sent to the Olympics. No vague"prior bodies of work" to consider, no suddenly going back to pick apart programs that they had already judged (yes, Mirai stood still and Polina was gangly at times, but they still beat Ashley!) Cut, dry, fair, and you know, they got the exact team they got anyway!

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That also would have been an unprecedented move on USFS' part, and I wonder if it would truly have been less controversial (while it would have likely relaxed Wagner for Nationals, imagine if she had the same performances anyway...). Still, there would be less hard feelings among skaters and fans, I think.

One thing's for sure - I expect changes to the selection criteria for 2018...

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On the topic, I think they went with Edmunds because 1) she's 2nd, and bumping her would have been an even BIGGER controversy, and 2) they want to invest in the future and see her as the "best bet". If Edmunds was 3rd and Nagasu 2nd, I think Nagasu would have gone and Edmunds would have been the one left off for Wagner.

Several (alternate) ways this could have gone:

1) Send Nagasu to Olympics & Wagner to Worlds, Gold+Edmunds to both (note: this would be CONSISTENT with decisions made in other disciplines)
2) Send Edmunds to Olympics, Nagasu to Worlds, Gold+Wagner to both
3) Send Wagner to Olympics, Nagasu to Worlds, Gold+Edmunds to both
and so on.


After some thought, I would have given serious consideration to 2) if it was up to me. IMHO, Nagasu honestly deserved more than just 4CC for finishing 3rd in a year where the US had 3 Oly/World spots. Plus, the presence of Gold & Wagner makes keeping 3 spots more likely so fewer worries about Nagasu's up/down-ness.

Who knows though - suppose one of Gold or Wagner end up winning a medal and bowing out of worlds - then Nagasu gets to go anyway. Hope she's prepared for that possibility (however unlikely it may seem).

Mao88 said:

Clearly, the lesson to be learnt in all this is that Ashley Wagner and Gracie Gold should have been pre-selected for the Olympic team prior to Nationals and it should have been made clear to the rest that only one place was up for grabs, and that the outcome of Nationals would be only one of several factors in terms of selection criteria.

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I think 2 places were up for grabs. Despite her potential, Gracie did not have the results to bump a 3rd place finisher if she were off the podium. Had she bombed Nationals, Gracie would have had a very mediocre season not worthy of special treatment.

Edmunds needs to go to Sochi if only because the Russians have been pushing their young skaters much more then the US has and Edmunds was held back unfairly by not doing the JGP last season. It's time to take a chance with these girls coming up.

I'm still really torn on the decision but I do agree that there was only one spot open for the team this year. It was already predetermined that Ashley was going to go; and as long as Gracie didn't fall five times, she was going. The decision really was between sending Mirai or sending Polina. Both have their merits and both sides have valid arguments for why one deserved to go over the other. Sentimentally, I'd have chose Mirai; strategically, I'd have chosen Polina.

They went the strategic route and picked Polina. I think what it came down to is the officials know that Polina's chances of placing well in Sochi as an unknown are slim to none but it does give her the exposure. Sending her to worlds does the same thing. Seeing as Polina will probably be one of the top 3 US ladies competing against this growing contingent of Russians post-Sochi, she needs the experience. She's already behind skaters her age like Julia and Elena, who have had exposure on the senior GP and have made their mark. Polina needs to catch up and I think the USFSA knows that which is why they decided to throw her in the deep end without any water wings...so to speak. She'll sink or she'll swim, but either way she'll have the experience and exposure which will be critical for her moving forward.

Sending Mirai would have been nice of them b/c it'd have been a reward to her for delivering under the pressure of the event. However, the USFSA has never been one to do Mirai any favors so I wasn't shocked with the decision to send Polina over her. The way they see it, they gave Mirai her chance...and I (grudgingly) have to agree. I feel like if Mirai had been showing this kind of determination, enthusiasm, spark and fight a few years ago, she'd have been much better positioned to convincingly nab a spot on the team. It really was too little too late, but I still think she should have been rewarded. Send Gracie, Ashley and Polina to Sochi; send Polina to junior worlds and send Gracie, Ashley and Mirai to senior worlds. That would have been acceptable but the USFSA didn't spread the wealth at all for Mirai. They just tossed her a spot to 4CC and told her to sit down and shut up. I do think they were wrong for that...

You know whose fault this really is?
Ashley. All this girl had to do was fall only once in the long program, and she probably would have come in ahead of Mirai, or the judges could have gotten here there with GOE or PCS scores somehow.

I want her to do well in the Olympics and Worlds, but I don't trust her not to freeze. I predict two spots again for 2015, because I can see Gracie coming in 4th or 5th (I don't think we'll see another medalist for ladies in a loooong time) and Ashley coming in below 8th or 9th. Not that Mirai necessarily would do much better, but I would trust her more to remain upright.

If she skates like she did at Nationals in front of international judges who aren't in love with her already, she will be lucky to be in the next to last flight.

kwanatic said:

I'm still really torn on the decision but I do agree that there was only one spot open for the team this year. It was already predetermined that Ashley was going to go; and as long as Gracie didn't fall five times, she was going. The decision really was between sending Mirai or sending Polina. Both have their merits and both sides have valid arguments for why one deserved to go over the other. Sentimentally, I'd have chose Mirai; strategically, I'd have chosen Polina.

They went the strategic route and picked Polina. I think what it came down to is the officials know that Polina's chances of placing well in Sochi as an unknown are slim to none but it does give her the exposure. Sending her to worlds does the same thing. Seeing as Polina will probably be one of the top 3 US ladies competing against this growing contingent of Russians post-Sochi, she needs the experience. She's already behind skaters her age like Julia and Elena, who have had exposure on the senior GP and have made their mark. Polina needs to catch up and I think the USFSA knows that which is why they decided to throw her in the deep end without any water wings...so to speak. She'll sink or she'll swim, but either way she'll have the experience and exposure which will be critical for her moving forward.

Sending Mirai would have been nice of them b/c it'd have been a reward to her for delivering under the pressure of the event. However, the USFSA has never been one to do Mirai any favors so I wasn't shocked with the decision to send Polina over her. The way they see it, they gave Mirai her chance...and I (grudgingly) have to agree. I feel like if Mirai had been showing this kind of determination, enthusiasm, spark and fight a few years ago, she'd have been much better positioned to convincingly nab a spot on the team. It really was too little too late, but I still think she should have been rewarded. Send Gracie, Ashley and Polina to Sochi; send Polina to junior worlds and send Gracie, Ashley and Mirai to senior worlds. That would have been acceptable but the USFSA didn't spread the wealth at all for Mirai. They just tossed her a spot to 4CC and told her to sit down and shut up. I do think they were wrong for that...

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An even handed summary, insightful and very plausible analysis.

RABID said:

An even handed summary, insightful and very plausible analysis.

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Well, you know, I try.

Mirai is 9th after the 4CC SP with 2 <'s and a time violation. I think this reiterates how important the "body of work" consideration is, and that the choice was absolutely between Polina and Mirai, whereas Ashley was safe.

Yes, I think with some time and reflection those who were crying for Ashley to be left of the Olympic team will realize they were being complete morons and will laugh at themselves, or maybe knock themselves at the side of their head with their hand hard, for even thinking such a stupid thing, and that the decision was absolutely always Mirai vs Polina.

From the moment the podium was determined. I knew Ashley and Gracie were on the team. As long as Ashley made the top five, I assumed she would be on the Olympic team. She has medaled at all but one GP event in the past two seasons. She has placed top five at Worlds for two seasons. SHe earned her spot by being consistent over two seasons. Yes she fell at nationals. But I don't think one bad event after so many is enough to keep her off the team. It will likely effect what she skates for the team event though.

The question to me was do you send Mirai who is inconsistent and at the end of her ropes trying to make her career happen or Polina who is technically great, still artistically young, and no international senior experience. As a Mirai fan, I personally was hoping that it would be Mirai, especially seeing as Polina has not even competed in Junior Worlds. However, giving Polina olympics/worlds placements sets her up well for world rankings and the grand prix next season. However Mirai is currently without a coach making it even harder for the usfsa to know which version of Mirai they can expect at the Olympics. Polina, like Mirai was at the last Olympics, is part of the future. I think they are hoping people will fall for Polina as they did for Mirai four years ago even if Polina doesn't place.

Poodlepal said:

You know whose fault this really is?

Ashley. All this girl had to do was fall only once in the long program,...

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I know, right? But then again, I don't think skaters fall on purpose just to make us mad.

Kelisiting said:

From the moment the podium was determined. I knew Ashley and Gracie were on the team. As long as Ashley made the top five, I assumed she would be on the Olympic team. She has medaled at all but one GP event in the past two seasons. She has placed top five at Worlds for two seasons. SHe earned her spot by being consistent over two seasons. Yes she fell at nationals. But I don't think one bad event after so many is enough to keep her off the team. It will likely effect what she skates for the team event though.

The question to me was do you send Mirai who is inconsistent and at the end of her ropes trying to make her career happen or Polina who is technically great, still artistically young, and no international senior experience. As a Mirai fan, I personally was hoping that it would be Mirai, especially seeing as Polina has not even competed in Junior Worlds. However, giving Polina olympics/worlds placements sets her up well for world rankings and the grand prix next season. However Mirai is currently without a coach making it even harder for the usfsa to know which version of Mirai they can expect at the Olympics. Polina, like Mirai was at the last Olympics, is part of the future. I think they are hoping people will fall for Polina as they did for Mirai four years ago even if Polina doesn't place.

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Despite many fatalistic comments it doesn't have to be the end of the line for Mirai. If I was a coach, close friend or close relative I would tell her to take some time at the end of the season and weigh some very important facts; in four years she is STILL a young woman, she has the tools, her commitment and maturity was THE determining factor in her demise and last but not least if she can find it in herself to commit to the hard work, bumps and bruises of a four year plan she might yet save her skating career even if she never sees the Olympics again. Everyone loves and celebrates stories of redemption. I hope she has it in her.

RABID said:

Despite many fatalistic comments it doesn't have to be the end of the line for Mirai. If I was a coach, close friend or close relative I would tell her to take some time at the end of the season and weigh some very important facts; in four years she is STILL a young woman, she has the tools, her commitment and maturity was THE determining factor in her demise and last but not least if she can find it in herself to commit to the hard work, bumps and bruises of a four year plan she might yet save her skating career even if she never sees the Olympics again. Everyone loves and celebrates stories of redemption. I hope she has it in her.

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OTOH, she also needs to consider what she is sacrificing. There aren't many professional opportunities out there except for the very best skaters. She is missing out on going to college and exploring a career outside of skating. What is her best case scenario at this point in her career? Another national title? Maybe, but it would be hard with some talented youngsters. A world/olympic medal? Not possible. I think at some point the stress of underperforming, public scrutiny, training expenses, and the potential for injury makes it not worth it for a skater in this position. Ultimately the choice is hers but I don't think it is a question of how hard she is willing to work, but rather what is she even working towards.