4CC vs Euros | Golden Skate

4CC vs Euros

ivy

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
I poked around the house most of the day today and caught up on watching Euro's on YouTube. Almost all the big names from Europe were there, with the exception of Plushy and S/S. And several countries seem to be using Euro's to determine Oly/World teams. Looking at the line-up for the upcoming 4CC it's the opposite - almost none of the big names will be there - per usual. What can the ISU do to up the importance of 4CC?

A few ideas -

Move it to before Euro's
Make World attendance based of 4CC/Euro placement
Have 3 continental championships - Europe/Africa, Asia/Oceania, N & S America

What else?

Or maybe it doesn't matter
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
I poked around the house most of the day today and caught up on watching Euro's on YouTube. Almost all the big names from Europe were there, with the exception of Plushy and S/S. And several countries seem to be using Euro's to determine Oly/World teams. Looking at the line-up for the upcoming 4CC it's the opposite - almost none of the big names will be there - per usual. What can the ISU do to up the importance of 4CC?

A few ideas -

Move it to before Euro's
Make World attendance based of 4CC/Euro placement
Have 3 continental championships - Europe/Africa, Asia/Oceania, N & S America

What else?

Or maybe it doesn't matter

Make the gap between FCC and Worlds greater; make the gap between the Canadian/US Nationals and 4CC greater as well. But realistically, in an Olympic season, the top teams simply won't do Four Continents. In fact, the Canadian National team before the 2010 Olympics had to sign statements asserting they wouldn't go to 4CC.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
The European Figure Skating Championship is a big deal with a glorious history. It predates the World Championship by a decade. (If you are European champion, what else is there? :) )

Four Continents, one the other hand -- until very recently countries had to scramble to find some second string skaters that were willing to go. A few years ago the ISU tried to bribe skaters to attend 4CC by offering a cash prize at the end of the year (I think it was $45,000) for the highest-rated skater in each discipline for that season, and the point system was set up so that you couldn't win if you didn't attend and score well at Euros or 4CC. That plan was dropped after two years -- I think because the ISU didn't have the money.

I think it is hard to make people care about a particular competition. It has to develop its own prestige over the years.
 

mmcdermott

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Make the gap between FCC and Worlds greater; make the gap between the Canadian/US Nationals and 4CC greater as well.

How about, make the gap between America and Asia smaller?

Just kidding, obviously, but more skaters might go if it wasn't so far away for half of them ;)
 

Chemistry66

Mmmmm, tacos.
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
It's easy to have Europeans when there's not as big a distance travelled/time zone jumps. Anywhere 4CC is held, there's going to be massive distances and time zones traversed due to the nature of the competition combining the US, Canada, Japan, China, and the rest of the countries involved.

It would be nice to see more big teams there, but penalizing teams for not wanting to deal with the wonders of jet lag and long travel times isn't really the right thing to do.
 

altuixde

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 7, 2012
Also, the title "Four Continents Champion" doesn't quite roll off the tongue like "European Champion" does. Perhaps changing the name of the competition would help.
 

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
I think there should be some sort of North American championship, but after US and Canadian nationals would have just happened, that would be kind of difficult.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
I poked around the house most of the day today and caught up on watching Euro's on YouTube. Almost all the big names from Europe were there, with the exception of Plushy and S/S.
Actually, the top two dance teams also missed Euros, while S/S did do the SP but withdrew because she was sick. I agree that the attendance at Euros is much better than at 4CC and I think it's a combination of timing and event prestige.

It's easy to have Europeans when there's not as big a distance travelled/time zone jumps. Anywhere 4CC is held, there's going to be massive distances and time zones traversed due to the nature of the competition combining the US, Canada, Japan, China, and the rest of the countries involved.
European champion Javier Fernandez trains in Toronto. Valentina Marchei trains in Detroit. IIRC all the Israeli skaters train in New Jersey and so do ice dance bronze medalists Coomes and Buckland. Actually, half the dance teams probably train in North America if not more (Shpilband could often be seen in the K&C). The distance between the US/Canada and Budapest isn't quite as big as between most of the US and East Asia, but it's not exactly a quick hop.
 

Ven

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
4CC will never be important in an Olympic year but I think I have some good suggestions for upping its reputation:

1. In the year before Olympic season, hold it at the upcoming Olympic venue.
2009 4CC was held in Vancouver, exactly 1 year before Olympics ... like a preview, very nice way of doing it IMO.

2. Figure skating season should be marketed better by all federations.
For the big names who get assigned two GP slots, should skate one in October and one in November.
GPF in December
All nationals in January
4CC in February
Worlds in March

This gives audiences about 1 major competition per month which keeps "in-season" momentum maintained, and then the rest of the year off-season.
Exactly same as other major sports are marketed to the public.

Would also help if ISU could promote 4CC as a "major", similar to golf and tennis.

1. Olympics
2. Worlds
3. 4CC
4. Grand Prix Final

Being the major championships.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
4CC will never be important in an Olympic year but I think I have some good suggestions for upping its reputation:

1. In the year before Olympic season, hold it at the upcoming Olympic venue.
2009 4CC was held in Vancouver, exactly 1 year before Olympics ... like a preview, very nice way of doing it IMO.

2. Figure skating season should be marketed better by all federations.
For the big names who get assigned two GP slots, should skate one in October and one in November.
GPF in December
All nationals in January
4CC in February
Worlds in March

This gives audiences about 1 major competition per month which keeps "in-season" momentum maintained, and then the rest of the year off-season.
Exactly same as other major sports are marketed to the public.

Would also help if ISU could promote 4CC as a "major", similar to golf and tennis.

1. Olympics
2. Worlds
3. 4CC
4. Grand Prix Final

Being the major championships.
What if the Olympic venue is in a European country? What about countries whose Nationals are in December? Why should 4CC be considered one of the majors while Euros is not? This is a very NA-centric approach.

There's usually a major event in the Olympic venue the year before, though sometimes it's the GPF rather than one of the continental championships.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
The other major event they could have hosted in SOchi instead of GPF is Euros. They couldnt host 4CC. By the way has Russia ever hosted the Euros? I dont remember at all that case.
 

Ven

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
What if the Olympic venue is in a European country? What about countries whose Nationals are in December? Why should 4CC be considered one of the majors while Euros is not? This is a very NA-centric approach.

Well, I don't think it's a NA-centric approach, because Euros is only for Europeans, and hypothetical NA champs would be only U.S.-Canada, etc. I thought 4CC was supposed to be inclusive for every nationality, which would be necessary for a "major".
The alternative would be to eliminate 4CC, and just have Euros, NA Champs, Asian Champs, in its place.

Also, I think the federations should co-ordinate and hold their Nationals the same month. One of the things that helps major sports leagues bring in lots of $$$'s is a regular, consistent schedule. If you had GP slots in October and November, with GP Final in December, and Senior B's mixed in ... this would allow the U.S. networks to get behind their top skater for a GP event each month, Japanese nets, Russian nets all do the same. Then you have nationals in January ... 4CC or Euro/NA/Asian champs in February, and Worlds in March. It just helps to build and keep momentum through the season.

This would be more marketable to casual fans and draw in new ones. GS posters already know when all of the big competitions are, but at least here in the U.S. most people don't. It would help figure skating at least in the U.S. to have a regular schedule and more marketing in the way I described. Just one big competition per year (nats) and then 1-week tape delayed broadcasts at 12 noon on Saturday ..randomly spread out through the season ... not exactly the best way to market the sport.
 

gold12345

Medalist
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
It really has nothing to do with prestige, as the field for 4CC in non-Olympic years is generally as strong as possible.


In an Olympic year, they have no choice but to move 4CC into January instead of February, which puts it too close to the Nationals of two major countries in the event (the US and Canada). And by allowing a week in between US/Canadian Nationals and 4CC, 4CC ends up scheduled too close to the Olympics.

The European countries hold their Nationals earlier (in December), which makes it reasonable for those countries' Olympians to attend Europeans (in January).

I really don't know if anything can be done to fix this.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Well, I don't think it's a NA-centric approach, because Euros is only for Europeans, and hypothetical NA champs would be only U.S.-Canada, etc. I thought 4CC was supposed to be inclusive for every nationality, which would be necessary for a "major".
The alternative would be to eliminate 4CC, and just have Euros, NA Champs, Asian Champs, in its place.

Also, I think the federations should co-ordinate and hold their Nationals the same month. One of the things that helps major sports leagues bring in lots of $$$'s is a regular, consistent schedule. If you had GP slots in October and November, with GP Final in December, and Senior B's mixed in ... this would allow the U.S. networks to get behind their top skater for a GP event each month, Japanese nets, Russian nets all do the same. Then you have nationals in January ... 4CC or Euro/NA/Asian champs in February, and Worlds in March. It just helps to build and keep momentum through the season.

This would be more marketable to casual fans and draw in new ones. GS posters already know when all of the big competitions are, but at least here in the U.S. most people don't. It would help figure skating at least in the U.S. to have a regular schedule and more marketing in the way I described.
That's exactly my point: all your suggestions are based on what will work for the US and to a lesser extent Canada, disregarding everyone else who sends skaters to 4CC and disregarding the European countries (4CC as a major, Euros not on that list). Why should everyone in and out of Europe re-do their schedules to accommodate the US? Japanese Nationals are held in December and clearly that works for them. It doesn't look like they need any changes to their marketing plan, considering the huge popularity of the sport there.

It probably makes more sense to have all the major Nationals in the second half of December (after the GPF, of course) and then have the continental championships in the middle to second half of January, giving everyone a breather during which they can prepare for Worlds (or for the Olympics, as the case may be) - then you don't need to switch up the schedule in an Olympic year.
 

Ven

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Here in the U.S. the best way to grow the sport would be:

Oct/Nov -- Skate America in prime-time on a Saturday night or something
Oct/Nov -- one of the other GP slots that #1 American skater draws (again, you want to put these in prime-time and promo the hell out of them)
Dec -- Grand Prix Final (promo the hell out of it!)

Even if you have to tape delay in foreign countries ... show it that night. Don't show it at 12 noon on Saturday two weeks later. That's pathetic.

Jan -- U.S. Nationals
(ideally you would make this a bigger deal, with live set like NBC did with 2009 WCs in L.A.)

Feb -- 4CC or Euros/North American/Asian Champs

March -- World Championships

Obviously everything would get moved up in the Olympic years ... but yeah, NBC and ISU do a pathetic job of marketing the sport. It's shameful, almost like they don't care.
 

Ven

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Japanese Nationals are held in December and clearly that works for them. It doesn't look like they need any changes to their marketing plan, considering the huge popularity of the sport there.

It probably makes more sense to have all the major Nationals in the second half of December (after the GPF, of course) and then have the continental championships in the middle to second half of January, giving everyone a breather during which they can prepare for Worlds (or for the Olympics, as the case may be) - then you don't need to switch up the schedule in an Olympic year.

Japan wouldn't have to change anything then. Already GP slots are in October and November with GPF in December.

NBC / ISU could just let 4CC die then and let the Euros have the Euros ... schedule North American Championships for February. Everyone else can do their Nats in December or whenever they want, and U.S. still does January.

The point is look how successful NFL and Nascar are in the U.S.
They have regular schedules that are well marketed. Everyone knows they can tune in at the same time every week to see the game or race, and they promo the hell out of them.

People in the U.S. get no exposure to Figure Skating at all. NBC buries the product 2 weeks later with bizarre editing (2 hours for all disciplines LP only) ... usually at a 12noon Saturday slot which is death.

By that point, anyone who cares has already seen everything on Youtube and everyone else could care less.

Once a year primetime broadcast for Nationals doesn't cut it as far as building interest in the sport.
 

Alex D

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
I think the problem is that Europe is a big "nation" for itself so to speak. You are at another country in a few hours, you have the Euro as currency in many, you speak similar languages and its a big prestige to win Euro´s, as we had many Olympic and world champions coming from the Euro´s.

The 4 CC´s are a bit like 4 national championships merged into one. It just doesn't has the same glamour as one big event, it doesn't feel important somehow and not enough nations participate.

Look at Euro´s, you have Russians, Germans, Fins, Swedes, Brit´s, Lithuanian, Italian, French, Spanish .... so many countries with such a huge skating history - that's just not there at the 4 CC´s.

I would love to see Euro´s switched to Feb btw. January is not a good month if you like tennis as well, you always have to decide what you do. Australian Open or Euro´s :(
 

phaeljones

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
It really has nothing to do with prestige, as the field for 4CC in non-Olympic years is generally as strong as possible.


In an Olympic year, they have no choice but to move 4CC into January instead of February, which puts it too close to the Nationals of two major countries in the event (the US and Canada). And by allowing a week in between US/Canadian Nationals and 4CC, 4CC ends up scheduled too close to the Olympics.

The European countries hold their Nationals earlier (in December), which makes it reasonable for those countries' Olympians to attend Europeans (in January).

I really don't know if anything can be done to fix this.

This is all true.

Maybe I am a lone voice on this but I kind of like 4CC the way that it is, and I prefer it to Europeans, even though Europeans is more prestigious and attracts the cream of the cream from Europe. 4CC, in this year, lets me see skaters that I cannot see at the Olympics but want to watch, like Mura, Rippon, Dornbush and Kozuka (and, for instance, for the women Nagasu). It is an important venue for countries with deep fields of talent. It also lets me see skaters from countries I generally don't notice, such as skaters from the Philippines. Further, I get to see the possible up and comers competing at seniors (like Nam Nguyen and Keiji Tanaka). And there are always, even in this kind of year, a top tier skater there like Denis Ten. Whereas Europeans is the crowning of the cream of European skating, 4CC represents a valuable gateway that gives lifeblood to the sport and, because of that dynamic characteristic, is more interesting for me to watch and follow. (For instance, in the men, better than watching the coronation of Fernandez at Europeans. Europeans is not always a better event in every category.) Perhaps it is not so bad the way that it is.
 

edenlover

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
Some who've been around for a while remember the North American Championships. I recall Janet Lynn and Karen Magnussen competing in them. Don't know when they stopped having that competition, but it was quite a while before the Grand Prix series began. It was covered by ABC usually, because ABC had most of the FS on Wide World of Sports with Uncle DIck and the Most Memorable and Beloved Jim McKay.

Ms. Dykstra, who was recently inducted into the WFSHOF, was the first skater I watched--in black and white--on TV in the 64 OLYMPICS. I was a kid--8 years old, and my mother gave me the Figure Skating bug. Peggy and Scott Allen also skated in that competition. That's what I mean by "been around for a while."

BTW, the last one was scheduled in 73 in ROchester NY but was cancelled apparently for judging issues. It was also held just every two years in the off Olympic years.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
About the North American Championships, in addition to the fact that the U.S. and Canada alternately accused each other of crooked judging every other year, the real reason the series ended in 1973 was that Canada decided it was more in their interests to host an international competition, Skate Canada.

The U.S. (don't get mad, get even ;) ) countered with Skate America six years later.
 
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